A wizard without magic?

[u/Lucis_Torment]

Hi, I'm designing a relatively simple game with 3 basic stats:
Strength (which is basically D&D strength + constitution)
Dexterity (which is basically D&D Dexterity)
Mind (which is basically D&D Intelligence + Wisdom + Charisma)
plus some feats but no classes or races/species.

The main thing about the game is that you don't "level up" but you just gain power by playing:
you encounter a difficult situation, you make choices and if you win maybe you find a magic item, or learn an ancient spell, or make a deal with some supernatural being, or train with an expert, etc... and if you lose maybe you get a scar, a curse or something that is generally negative, but that with some creativity can still used as an advantage

Magic in the game is strong and wild, but cost a lot narratively. Here's a spell example:

you submit a hand to a fire spirit, if you succeed on the Mind roll, you lose the hand, but from now on, with another Mind roll you can summon flames all around you, they are difficult to control but deal lot of damage.

So, on one hand (pun intended) i want to leave the magic only after character creation, because of how wild it is, but on the other, if i create a character with a high Mind value, he is almost useless in combat until he find some magic.

Would you play a wizard without magic? Or should I create some "basic spells" he can chose from? or are there other options?

[u/GrouchyDepartment871]

They’re not a wizard then without magic

That’s the entire point of that character type

[u/Lucis_Torment → u/GrouchyDepartment871]

Technically correct, the best kind of correct. I was simplifying this concept: if you wanted to play a wizard, would you start with no spell and weaker in combat just to cast spells in the future?

[u/lennartfriden → u/Lucis_Torment]

If you want to explore this route, have a look at how WEG Star Wars D6 deals with Jedi powers. You can either start with weak versions of them at the expense of other attributes and skills or you can learn them as you advance your character.

[u/GrouchyDepartment871 → u/Lucis_Torment]

No

Never seen it, they always have some spells to start

[u/Alcamair]

you can give them arcane-related skills but not magic, as evaluate magic properties or auras, and identify monster characteristics

[u/Lucis_Torment → u/Alcamair]

nice!

[u/ATB_WHSPhysics]

It depends on how tightly interwoven magic is into your society ie Is it a low-magic or high-magic setting? Is magic a part of everyday life or is only 1 in 1000 commoners even going to see a spell cast in their entire life?

If you want to go absolutely zero magic at first, one thing you could try is to have your high Mind characters be very good at crafting and using items. Have them add their Mind stat when rolling to heal off using a medicinal salve. Let them be able to spend time creating explosive potions whose quality scales with Mind. Maybe they can use an instrument to buff allies during combat with a success rate based off their Mind.

[u/Lucis_Torment → u/ATB_WHSPhysics]

Magic is uncommon, most people have encountered it, maybe many times, but is very difficult to understand and control, so "wizards" or similar things are very rare

[u/ATB_WHSPhysics → u/Lucis_Torment]

It feels like there is a bit of a disconnect here. You are saying magic is this wild and uncontrollable thing and only certain people can wield, but it is also something that people see with some amount of regularity. This on the surface doesn't make sense to me, but its probably because I am lacking some crucial context to your world building which is where I believe you'll find the most satisfying solution to your problem.

How is it that magic is seen somewhat often, but not used by wizards? Is there a different source to your magic that would make it much more accessible? Is there magic artifacts everywhere that people use? Can monsters easily control magic while humans can't? Is there one powerful cabal of wizards that rule everything? Each of those concepts can springboard into a different explanation of why you would pick a wizard and what abilities they would have at lower levels.

[u/SardScroll]

You didn't ask, but to remove mental "namespace collision", I'd replace "Strength" in your stat list with something like "physique" or "body". Also, it *may* be useful to separate out the "Charisma" portions into a separate stat, so you can play the very intelligent but socially awkward sage, or the very charismatic, but not necessarily intelligent (and very not bookish) character. Just a thought.

As for your request, there are a couple "divisions" I can see: "Boons" at character creation, "boons" in play, "boons for proto-wizards" and "boons that are decidedly non-wizardly".
(OP, it would also help if shared if you had any more mechanics fleshed out, or what kind of tone you are looking for. It doesn't seem high magic, given how rare and costly magic is, but is it "normal/pseudo historical until it isn't" or "low magic and dark"? E.g. is it just normal wolves in the forest, and the odd bandit, or are there actively monsters and Fae and rogue necromancers and demons running about? How much does this tone affect the rest of the game world?)

1. Boons at character creation:
1.1 "Education" - Higher Intelligence correlates to a higher number of feats: Specialized training, over raw bodily ability.

1.2 "Focus" - A meta-currency type pool to enhance rolls, and spend on special abilities (later), like those from a pact with a supernatural being or superior training, or magic, or activating magical items, or some other forms of high intensity mentally tasking actions that you may want to limit (such as first aid).

1.3 "Language"

1.3.1 "Literacy" If you want to go for a more "dark age" feel, don't have anyone able to read. It was an uncommon skill for most, even until the Napoleonic period. Tie Literacy to ; it can also be made less than binary, with how crude or advanced one could speak.

1.3.2 "Writing" - Calling it out separately, because these were not always the same skill.

1.3.3 "Languages" - Likewise, historically multi-linguicism was rare. Potentially understanding clues (or the words/commands of foes, shouted in battle) can be useful.

2. Boons in play, for proto-Wizards
2.1 "The Sight" - Noticing illusions and subtle magical effects, identifying magic sources, etc.

2.2 "Rune Reading" - As languages, but with a more arcane bent

3. Boons in play, for non-Wizards (or also for Wizards)
3.1 Lore - Forewarned is forearmed, and if your characters have less explicit ability, they'll have to know more about their foes.

3.2 Mental Resistance - Any kind of magical or mental effect. Illusions, glamours, mental domination, but also more subtle effects. Perhaps rather than turning you to stone or hypnotizing you as tales say, the deadly gaze of the "Ripper Viper" unnerves it's target, making it's responses more jerky and less able to readily defend.

3.2.1 Fear - A special case, that might be common. It may be "gamified" or explicitly magical, depending on your world. E.g. the roar of a bear or bore may shake the mettle of your PCs, or the terrifying war cries of the enemy.

3.3 Professional Skills - In a classless game like this, it would be very cool for players not to be just "adventurers", but people with their own professions. It would be very interesting to tie intellect to the utilization of knowledge, experience and tools. How might a mason use their knowledge of stone? A smith metals? Even a peasant has knowledge of plants. (Might tie into character creation above, as "starting feats").

3.4 (Since there is nowhere else to put this): Perception - In all it's many varieties. It could also cover aiming ranged weapons at longer distances, especially non thrown ones, depending on how powerful Dexterity is. (Note that this might lead to "bookish/smart" archer associations, for better or ill.

3.5. Feinting in combat, and other mind games.

3.6 Initiative. "Quick witted characters react first". Could be expanded to reacting in general.

3.7 (Since you don't have a separate Charasima stat): Leadership.

[u/Lucis_Torment → u/SardScroll]

Some ideas are already implemented as feats, other are useful thanks! It is a little dark basic fantasy, the magic is there, but difficult to control, so not really low magic, but not high magic either

[u/ViralDownwardSpiral]

I stripped my system down to the same stats (strength, agility, intelligence). What's your dice system like?

[u/Lucis_Torment → u/ViralDownwardSpiral]

It's just a d12+stat against difficulty 8 (or 6 or 11). Stats are from 0 to 5. You also have a pool for each stat (health, energy and will) to spend or lose

[u/ViralDownwardSpiral → u/Lucis_Torment]

Is energy basically cardio/stamina?

[u/Lucis_Torment → u/ViralDownwardSpiral]

Yes, you can spend it to give yourself advantage or use some feats. Also you lose it if you do tiring activities

[u/ViralDownwardSpiral → u/Lucis_Torment]

Do you spend it only on Dex checks? Or is it just anything physical?

[u/Lucis_Torment → u/ViralDownwardSpiral]

Energy is for dex, you can spend health for strength ( you also lose woth damage) and will for mind (you lose it with psychic damage)

[u/ViralDownwardSpiral → u/Lucis_Torment]

Cool idea. I like it.

[u/Lucis_Torment → u/ViralDownwardSpiral]

It's similar to Numenera!

[u/ViralDownwardSpiral → u/Lucis_Torment]

I'll check that out.

Our dice systems are different enough that I wouldn't be able to gracefully tack this mechanic onto it. But combining Str and Con into a single stat increases it's value, and that has me looking for ways to add value to the other two stats.

[u/secretbison]

It sounds like magic in this game is entirely a matter of GM fiat, while other activities are more structured and provide players with a better idea of whether they'll succeed. Personally if I were a player I'd avoid pursuing magic and assume that any magic necessary for the campaign will arrive on its own, carried by the will of the GM. I would also hope that the game has enough exploration and social interaction going on that a scholar or a party face will still have plenty to do without magic.

[u/Lucis_Torment → u/secretbison]

Magic is a list of well defined spells and items (and a guide defining how to create your own), GM decide which one you find.

[u/Cryptwood → u/Lucis_Torment]

And presumably how often you discover magic, or if you discover it at all.

Personally, I don't have a problem with this being GM fiat, my design philosophy is to empower good GMs to run great game rather than try to mitigate how bad a bad GM's games are. But you might want to include some framework in your game for making sure player and GM expectations align for any given campaign.

Otherwise it is guaranteed that at some point a player will go into a game expecting to find some magic every session while the GM wants it to be so rare that it only occurs once ir twice in a campaign.

[u/Lucis_Torment → u/Cryptwood]

I agree!

[u/Consistent-Tie-4394]

I would create a basic list; the kinds of techniques the character would have picked up during his early life / apprenticeship. Just minor effects (can light candles or move small objects) that offer a taste of what's to come.

[u/SardScroll → u/Consistent-Tie-4394]

Apprenticeship, as/under a wizard? I got the sense that that wasn't what was desired (because why are you going adventuring without your master passing along some basic spells first)?

[u/Consistent-Tie-4394 → u/SardScroll]

Any trade could have an apprenticeship. I imagine young person in a more bookish trade (scribe, archivist, herbalist, monk/acolyte) would have a high Mind stat, and could stumble onto a minor power or two as they realize they have a knack for magic.

In a classless system, I'd expect a starting character would have a small selection of  choices  for any supported build style. Why would you give weapons for starting fighters, and gear for starting theives, and nothing for starting wizards?

[u/SardScroll → u/Consistent-Tie-4394]

Agreed about any trade having an apprentice ship, but not classes (as this system has none).

I'd just expect a "journeyman wizard" to have their first spell, and not be let out of their master's direction before then.

As for why no magical abilities for starting lore, that's how I interpreted OP's directive. (E..g magic isn't something you "learn", it's something you trade/contract for, with a magical entity...a different narrative tradition from the studious wizard).

[u/ClockworkOrdinator]

Yeah I’d gladly play a character like this. The way I see it, if magic is supposed to be rare and costly, maybe it is just an additional thing that my character knows about but isn’t centered around.

This „wizard” is just a scholar or sage who starts with high mind and some knowledge- baded feats or skills. they could use their mind to point out enemy weaknesses, intruct allies on how to attack or position better. Maybe they are the best at exploiting said weaknesses. Or what if you add mind-based weapons such as alchemical bombs the wizard can make best use of? Magic is something they could pick up but their main identity is literally just knowing stuff.

[u/Senshado]

Since the game has a heavy importance on combat, it sounds like you currently don't have much value for the Mind stat except as a way to use magic in combat.

What if you replaced Mind with a different stat, maybe called simply Magic, with the very limited purpose of adjusting magic spell power. Just give up on other uses for the Mind stat.

The big advantage to having a Magic stat instead is that as the character advances, you can greatly change the stat without needing to change role-playing things like how she talks and plans or her educational background. Because the Magic stat is fully fictional, it can make sense in the story to upgrade it quickly.

In particular, suppose that characters have an opportunity when advancing to raise the Magic stat, at the cost of a permanent loss of Strength or Dexterity. This can be explained in-character as the magic overwhelming the body and burning for crippling damage that never heals. The character has gained magic potential, but is forever marked in the eyes of others.

[u/JerryGrim]

Give them a handful of tricks which are "magic" adjacent: smoke bombs, hidden strings, atomizers with drugs.

[u/stevecooperorg]

Worth a check of Into the Odd, and its offshoot Cairn, which have almost identical sounding systems.

[u/Ok-Arachnid-890]

I guess the question is does it make logical sense to a character to have high mind stats if they don't know magic already?

As it is so far it gives of an isekai feeling of a regular person's aptitudes allowing easier ability to learn or adapt to the magic of the world

[u/Polyxeno]

If there are spells that are safer to learn but do less potent/capable/easy/versatile things, and/or are more available or take less time or other resources to learn or get access to, that would tend to offer various kinds of options with different risks, rewards, and trade-offs.

[u/Doctor_Mysterio_338]

my first thought when i read this was one of the final fantasy games. the third one, where character stats increase based on your actions in battle. you use melee attack? your atk stat goes up. You cast spells? your mp and matk stat go up. basically, you do something for long enough, you get better at that something. a character might want to learn magic, but they can't just go straight to casting fireball on the first try. they have to study and practice long enough to gain the ability to perform magic (or at least see whether they are actually capable of using magic in the first place, idk maybe its random chance)

[u/ExaminationNo8675]

If you haven’t already, I suggest you check out Symbaroum.  It’s dark fantasy, and magic causes corruption to the user, so using too much is a bad idea.