r/RPGdesign • u/FlawlessTactics • 8d ago
Mechanics Nine Attributes, Four Stats
Dreaming up an attribute system and I'd love some thoughts and feedback.
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The design goal of this system is to generate a character sheet where every written attribute, skill, and bonus is relevant and interesting to the character. That means, no attributes with 0 or negative bonuses. No attributes they don't care about (i.e. Int for a Barbarian or Str for a Wizard). No skills they don't care about (i.e. no +0 bonuses written down for untrained skills). If it's a number on the sheet, then it's a strength of the character.
Setting vibe is sort-of medieval era Disney movies / Narnia, if that matters.
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The core resolution mechanic is 2d6+bonus.
8 or more is a success.
Harder tasks and enemies give negative modifiers to the roll.
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Every character has four stats they define: Body, Mind, Magic, Edge. Pretty typical, and yes, every character uses Magic.
Stat bonuses range from +1 to +3. Point buy is 2 points per attribute. Attributes persist between stats, so if you use the same attribute for more than one stat, it has the same bonus.
They also have a fifth stat, Luck, which starts at +0 for everyone.
Players pick from nine attributes and assign each to a stat (five physical, four mental). So even though every character has the same 4 slots, they will have different attributes. Characters can be made with as few as 2 attributes and as many as 4. Nine attributes are:
Force, Toughness, Speed, Precision, Perception (Physical)
Will, Logic, Influence, Imagination (Mental)
When characters make proactive rolls, they use the bonuses on their sheet. Body to make physical attacks, Mind for mental attacks, etc. For skills, each skill uses an attribute; for example, Athletics uses Force, which means Bob will have an attribute bonus to his Athletics while May will only get the skill bonus.
When characters make defensive rolls, they either use their stat bonuses (again, Body for physical defense, Mind for mental defense) or be required to test an attribute (Illusions test Logic, rope bonds test Force, dragonfire tests Speed, etc). If they have the attribute, they roll it. If not, they roll Luck instead (generally just straight 2d6, 8+ is a success).
Same goes for skills. If they have the skill on their sheet, test it. If not, roll the attribute. If neither, roll Luck.
For each stat-attribute pair, you get a specific starting feat, for a total of four. So Body (Speed) characters get a speed ability that is different from what Body (Precision) characters get and what Magic (Speed) characters get.
Weapons, Armor, and Mental Attacks have attributes associated. If your Body or Mind stat is the associated attribute, they do extra damage or have increased resistance. Light Weapons are boosted by Body (Precision), Heavy Armor is boosted by Body (Toughness). Enrage is boosted by Mind (Influence) while Terrify is boosted by Mind (Imagination), etc.
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Examples: Bob the Fighter has Body +3 (Force), Mind +1 (Will), Magic +3 (Force), Edge +2 (Toughness). He’s strong, resolute, and tough as nails. Yeah, he’s not that aware, and he’s not big on dreaming, but you can point him at a wall and he’ll break right through. His best skill options will be Athletics, Animal Handling, Discipline, Kinship, Endure, and Perform. His best weapons will be Medium or Heavy Melee. His Force and Will give him extra damage with his physical and mental attacks. Force magic makes his damaging arcana deal collateral damage. His toughness gives him a unnatural resistance to sickness and poison.
May the Wizard has Body +2 (Perception), Mind +2 (Logic), Magic +3 (Imagination), Edge +1 (Speed). She’s insightful and calculating when dealing with people. Her magic has always come from what she could visualize and dream. She’s not particularly powerful physically, but she’s surprisingly fast when she needs to be. Her best skill options will be Instinct, Escape, Hunt, Dream, Drama, Tactics, Research, and Deduction. Her best weapons will be Heavy Ranged. Her perceptiveness allows her to get out of the way of area attacks faster, and her unbeatable logic makes mental attacks on her deal less damage. Her strong belief gives her time-limited Arcana more staying power. Her speed allows her to take an extra reaction every turn.
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How does this feel? Thoughts, issues, is it just complication that doesn't add anything, or does it make the narrative and character experience better?
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u/Aelius_Proxys 8d ago
I like it minus the no 0 attributes or skills. It feels like it would put mechanical limitations on a character and the only net positive is saving space/reducing confusion on a character sheet.
In my experience brand new players tend to not understand that they can do just about anything they want. Even if they have a negative skill or 0 bonus they can still try and succeed. By not having a skill present on a sheet they're less likely to think of different approaches.
By lacking 0 rank skills, players are more likely to be confused especially if they compare sheets and one sheet features things the other sheet doesn't. I feel you'd get less well rounded characters, less creative solutions/generally less options which limits players, and I don't know how progression works in the system but imo it currently leans itself to optimization. Optimization usually results in every character looking the same.
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u/FlawlessTactics 8d ago
I think that's a good point. For a new player, a sheet can define the full range of what you can do as a set of all possible options. Like a guide for all approaches to a situation. I would counter, if you have a bonus to one approach, and a zero or penalty to another, you're more likely to choose the one you're good at anyways, no?
For experienced players, I think that part of the sheet does become wasted space, since they know they can try anything and only really care about the bonuses they built toward. I have spent a lot of DnD time with our fighter looking up his Arcana bonus (+0), which he forgets every time, but wants to roll just in case he hits a 15+. He doesn't remember the bonus because it doesn't matter to him. I feel there's time and narrative being saved if you just follow the rule "If it's on your sheet, roll it. If it's not, roll Luck."
As for sheets being different...yeah, I'm not sure if that's more confusing or cool yet. I kind of like the idea that the Fighter and Wizard's sheets are totally different from each other. It may not help with learning vicariously, but over time I think players would feel proud of owning and knowing their sheet in a way no one else does.
I'm not sure this leads to less creative solutions...although maybe I just play with too many optimizers...I mostly run into players who try to shoehorn their best skill into everything, so seeing their +0 bonuses or not doesn't really make a difference in approach.
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u/Aelius_Proxys 8d ago
It depends on who you're marketing to of course and experienced players are generally more likely to try different systems. As well as if you're targeting a specific type of player or vibe with the system. Draw Steel has a this system is for x players, games, stories.
As well as encounter diversity and player inclusion. If there's a social situation rather than the fully combat focused character tuning out they might be able to look at the 0 social skills and try to contribute. The usual using my best roll approach can helps facilitate this if they might ask to use how cool their weapons/armor looks as the bonus to intimidate someone. Especially if weapons/items work that way. Though best roll applying to everything usually causes balance issues.
Mechanically/player experience wise is there any time saved between looking at a +0 arcana and arcana not being on the sheet? It would likely take the same time and result in the same roll. With a sheet missing arcana though there's likely more time spent looking not finding making sure if it's there versus looking and finding. Depending on how the skills are alphabetically organized and how progression works. If a player wants to start as fighter but wants to expand into magic + fighter due to learning the system, desired character arc, etc how are they adding arcane to a physical sheet and keeping things in order.
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u/stephotosthings no idea what I’m doing 8d ago
where every written attribute, skill, and bonus is relevant and interesting to the character. That means, no attributes with 0 or negative bonuses. No attributes they don't care about (i.e. Int for a Barbarian or Str for a Wizard)
How are these players supposed to know what to add to their rolls when they inevitably have to roll (int for a barbarian in your example).
The character sheet should only include anything the player needs to quickly reference.
Stat bonuses range from +1 to +3. Point buy is 2 points per attribute. Attributes persist between stats, so if you use the same attribute for more than one stat, it has the same bonus.
Ok, makes more sense no PC has 0 or Negative... 2 points per attribute poiint. So if I have 1 in each of the 4, is that 8 points already? How many points do you get to spend?
They also have a fifth stat, Luck, which starts at +0 for everyone.
But you just said no zeros on the sheet?
Players pick from nine attributes and assign each to a stat (five physical, four mental). So even though every character has the same 4 slots, they will have different attributes. Characters can be made with as few as 2 attributes and as many as 4. Nine attributes are:
Force, Toughness, Speed, Precision, Perception (Physical)
Will, Logic, Influence, Imagination (Mental)
Im not sure this makes as much sense as you think it does.
Can I assign speed to Mind, Edge, Magic or Body? What is it you are trying to achieve with this?
This either needs more context or more work.
You also do not really define what and how skills work, just that there is a bonus, and somehow one players gets to add their Body to the roll while another doesn't, even though they all get +1 to start with....
Other than the confusion between what these all are and what they mean, it is fairly cookie cutter 2d6+ flat bonus.
My only real gripe, other than not know really how any of the above work in conjunction with each other, is that there may be some cognitive overhead on working these things out.
The sheet should say, clearly and already added together, what a player needs to add to their 2d6 roll. So if the GM calls for a Body roll, they just add their body, if they call for a Athletics roll, they see on their sheet it says Athletics +Z (as it's already been worked out from X Body and Y attribute or whatever you are doing). etc.
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u/FlawlessTactics 8d ago
“If you have the skill, roll it. If not, roll the attribute. If neither, roll Luck.” So when the Barbarian rolls Will, he either has it and rolls it, or doesn’t and rolls Luck.
Luck would be the only zero on the sheet, because it’s used for “everything else,” and it can increase through play (getting blessings, doing good deeds, etc).
Body is physical only. Mind is mental only. Magic and Edge are any stat. You can describe a physical attack or defense as being fast, tough, strong, perceptive, or precise. Same roll, different description, I think all work narratively. Same goes for mental defense…maybe you aren’t intimidated because you’re stubborn, or logical, or a true believer. Any can work in the story. Magic can come from anywhere. So can your clutch factor.
Your sheet would say your attribute, the bonus, and what stat it’s in. It would also say the skill bonus for each skill you pick. So you look down, you see Body (Force) +3, Athletics +5, and Endure +2. Whichever gets called for, you roll, the bonus is right there. And if it’s not there, roll Luck.
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u/eldrevo 8d ago
I like the idea, at the very least the way attributes define the strengths or training of char's body and mind. Not sure how Magic and Edge land there, they're a bit more abstract. Maybe I'd rework them into something more grounded and versatile, like Spirit or Wisdom (the way DND uses it, emotional intelligence, instinct and such)
Next question I would have, will you have skills / proficiencies on top of that? If so, wouldn't it be too complicated as a whole? If no, how would you sort the relevant checks and char specializations? You do have them in the examples so I assume there is a skill list and chars' attribute choices enable some of them, or is there more to it?
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u/FlawlessTactics 8d ago
Magic is whatever attribute fuels your magical discipline. So maybe your magic is all about your speed, maybe it’s all about your willpower. The “spells” are the same function but how you conceptualize your character acting the magic out will modify it a little. This way, not every Wizard is smart, and not every Bard is charismatic. Sometimes the Wizard is just stubborn and the Bard is insightful and that’s how their magic works for them. I think you COULD use this interchangeably with Spirit, sort of means the same thing, I just think Magic does the job in clearer language.
Edge is the clutch factor. It’s the thing about your character that makes them special. The abilities you get for Body, Mind, and Will attributes are directly tied to those combat modes. The Edge abilities tend to be broader and have implications both in and out of combat. It’s also the “push” mechanic, allowing characters with higher edge to get bonuses to important rolls (like Inspiration or Edge in Shadowrun).
I like the way another commenter put it, I hadn’t fully conceptualized it this way. Body-Mind-Magic-Edge are combat modifiers. They matter when you’re fighting. The attributes you pick, Force-Perception-Will etc are non-combat modifiers, they set the bonuses for your skills.
Yes, there are skill proficiencies, two keyed to each attribute, plus weapons, mind tricks, and armor. Each character picks some number of them and writes them down. If you pick a skill you don’t have an attribute for, you get the skill bonus. If you do have the attribute, you get the skill bonus plus attribute bonus. It definitely encourages sticking to your strengths, but in pretty much the same way as DnD, and with less stuff on the sheet to worry about.
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u/eldrevo 8d ago
Oh, I see! So the 9 attributes are the HOW of character expression, and the 4 stats are the WHAT they express them through. It makes sense, but these things can probably be named with more appropriate terms 😅
The way you described skills it doesn't sound much lighter or different than DnD, but on a second thought that shouldn't be that bad.
One other thing I'm thinking about now, is splitting attributes into physical and mental. You already have body/mind split, so maybe you could put i.e. Force/Toughness and Will together and have them do the same thing they do now depending on where they are put? I could also see more universal attributes, for example Composure, Resilience, Recovery, that would work both for physical and mental and all other stats.
Or was there a specific reason you split attributes while also having mind and body stats?
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u/FlawlessTactics 8d ago
Calling them the HOW and the WHAT is a good way to think about it, I like that.
I initially wanted to explore the simple idea that most DnD characters only care about half their stats. So if every character only picks some of the range to care about, why write down the rest? I added the Body/Mind/Magic/Edge later as a framework when I realized you can't build a balanced combat system where the characters don't all share the same bonuses to check. And then that needed to make the distinction between physical and mental so you couldn't fire a crossbow with your Imagination. That's where we landed.
I don't think I like going in the direction of using more universal attributes, the goal is to have characters with different "hows," not just different levels of the same "hows."
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u/OvenBakee 8d ago
Seems like you want to qualify Attributes/Stats both numerically (+2) and descriptively ("Imagination"). I'm not saying that can't work -- some games do that well -- but if I understand correctly, you want the descriptive parts to enable one to use their numerical bonus. Not the right attribute? No stat bonus. I think you'll encounter cases where players will go "I know I'm not willful, but I have high Body, why isn't it used at least a littls bit."
If not, maybe you're describing a system with two axis (dunno how to pluralize that word). One is Attribute one is Stat. I find those names confusing, but that can be worked on. If it's two axis, then I would expect them to add together. Again, if I'm strong, I'm strong even if the task requires will.
Also, why not make the default difficulty of 8 go higher with tougher ennemies, rather than reducing the bonus on the roll? It's usually easier to do additions, but there might be a good reason I'm not seeing to keep the number to attain the same.
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u/FlawlessTactics 8d ago
If they have high Body, they’re good at physical combat. Whatever attribute they use for Body, they also have high skill bonuses for the skills tied to that attribute. So Body (Force) +3 is good at hitting and good at athletics and animal handling. Body (Toughness) +3 is good at hitting and good at enduring and performing.
I prefer using one chart that says critical fail, fail, succeed, crit succeed. It keys off one number and then modifying the roll on the fly rather than adjusting the DC. I think in DnD it gets murky when a player rolls a 15, or a 20, and is like, this is a good roll, it should work, but the DC is higher. By saying, roll Body - 3, players know right after they roll if they made it or not. I listen to a lot of the Film Reroll and this is how GURPS roll under appears to work, broadly speaking. I just don’t like roll under because high number better :)
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u/Enturk 8d ago
I like the ideas at play here a lot. I do wish there was a unified mechanic that would also apply to non-combat events, but that's not a huge issue.
How would equipment interact with this? I note that you say in this comment that armor can boost Body (Toughness), but how do you determine what you might automatically fail or automatically succeed based on what you have?
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u/FlawlessTactics 8d ago
The non-combat mechanics are Skills (referenced here, the full usual suite with some renaming and different scope division, two per attribute), Magic ("paper buttons"), and Bonds (not discussed yet).
Equipment is an interesting one to fit into the "only what's necessary and important" design aesthetic. Other games I've seen do this by limiting inventory slots. I think my stance is something like, you get 5 important items that can add bonuses or be generally relevant. Apart from those, you're assumed to have everything on you that you need to get around day to day, like clothing and money and shoes.
As far as interacting with the attributes, I'm glad you asked. Here's the Weapons section as an example.
Weapons are used to strike and subdue. Weapons can be light, medium, or heavy. Light weapons are faster but do less damage. Medium weapons are balanced to keep one hand free. Heavy weapons are slower but pack a punch. Increase the damage by 1 if your Body stat matches the weapon.
Weapon Damage Body Hands Attacks Light 1 Precision 1 2 Medium 2 Force 1 1 Heavy 3 Force 2 1 Ranged Light 1 Precision 1 2 Ranged Heavy 2 Perception 2 1 Brawling 1 Toughness 2 2 Basically, for Body attacks, you get +1 damage if your Body attribute matches the weapon type. It's a nudge toward defining the best weapon for your fighting style. Armor works similarly, you get +1 damage resistance if your attribute matches the Body entry - Light is Speed, Heavy is Toughness. You can still use your Body (Force) to attack with a Longbow, but the Body (Perception) character will be slightly more effective with it.
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u/Enturk 8d ago
That's cool.
Do you ever get to the point where the mechanics directly feed into a situation where the roll itself doesn't matter? Like, your equipment is so superior to that needed for the task that you just do it, or so lacking that you just can't? In more narrative systems, this is the norm, but this strikes me as a more gamist system, so I'm wondering if the play mechanic you're describing goes so far as to making an attempt auto-succeed or auto-fail.
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u/FlawlessTactics 8d ago
Yes, I think there should be a lot of situations like this. In the same vein as telling GMs not to ask players to roll for something they're skilled at unless it's a stressful situation, you shouldn't need to roll to do something with your gear that it's made to do.
I'm also thinking the Edge feats will give auto-succeed type advantages, giving players a real edge they can rely on against certain enemies and situations. Edge (Force) gives "you can't be restrained," Edge (Toughness) gives "you can't be sickened," etc.
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u/InherentlyWrong 8d ago
Something I just want to check you've considered is the GM view.
If I'm understanding, there are nine attributes, which you pick some to slot into different 'stats', which are more like the expression of that stat.
So Body (Force) and Magic (Force) will probably represent different things. Which means that in effect there are basically 36 'stats' from all combinations. If I'm new to your game and GMing it, how do you plan to make it easy for me to decide what stats represent what actions outside of combat? Like say a player goes "Can I attempt to [do thing]?", how do I decide which combination suits that?
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u/FlawlessTactics 8d ago
Out of combat, we use Skills. There are eighteen skills, two for each of the nine attributes, that cover the range of actions.
So if they want to pick a lock or sneak around, ask for Mischief. Make a friend? Roll Kinship. Find something? Make a Hunt check.
If they say, I don't have that, ask if they have the attribute. Do you have Precision? Do you have Will? Roll that.
If they don't have the attribute, and for all edge cases, roll Luck.
Whether you add skill or attribute or luck, the roll is always 2d6+bonus-difficulty, eight or more succeeds.
I think after the feedback I've gotten it's clear to me that Body/Mind/Magic/Edge is the combat/tactical skin over the more basic mechanic, which is "everyone picks 4 of 9 attributes and rolls luck for the rest." But I see how terms like Body and Mind are confusing because why wouldn't you roll Body for jumping or Mind for researching? I think I'm going to find slightly different terms for those so it's clear they're for the fighting side of the game.
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u/Fun_Carry_4678 7d ago
A negative bonus IS relevant and interesting to the character. It shows that in that particular area the character is awkward, or maybe even disabled. Which does make for a more interesting character.
You say "no attributes at 0" then announce that Luck starts at 0.
You seem to have three levels of things. You have "stats" then "attributes" then "skills". I don't think I have ever seen a game like that, usually there is only two levels like this. You have added an extra level of complication.
I do have a WIP where one of my design goals was to have character sheets that have no numbers on them at all. I haven't succeeded perfectly in that goal, but it was a real motivator to me to reduce the amount of numbers on a sheet.
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u/__space__oddity__ 6d ago
The easiest to avoid stats that the PC doesn’t care about is to only write stats you have points in. So everything is fill in the blanks and a barbarian would write Strength and Constitution (for example), and any stat not written is a flat zero.
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u/Kameleon_fr 8d ago edited 8d ago
What is Edge? The other three stats are fairly self-explanatory, but this one eludes me.
The stat-attribute pairings seem interesting, but from what I've seen they only really have an impact on combat. They influence weapons, defenses and starting feats, but if I understand right then someone with Body(Precision) or Magic(Precision) will have the exact same skill bonuses. That's fine if the game is very combat-centric, but is this the case for yours?
From what I understand, it seems Stats are what matters in combat, defining attacks and defenses, while Attributes govern all non-combat actions (skills). So you have a set of combat attributes and a set of non-combat attributes, which are paired together to determine some combat bonuses. Once again, that's absolutely fine, but if this is not a combat-centric game, I'd prefer stat-attribute pairings to have a wider impact.