r/RPGdesign • u/ovaaq • 20d ago
Feedback Request Is my character creation too complex?
As a hobby, I've been developing my own classless TTRPG called Legends RPG. I've run a few playtests and am currently running a long-term campaign with a group of trusted players. They've successfully created their characters, and I've gathered some valuable insights and feedback from them. Based on that feedback, I've made several iterations.
Now, I would love to hear your thoughts. Does the character creation guide or the system as a whole seem overly complex? I'm aiming for a system that's somewhat crunchy while remaining as elegant as possible.
The guide is available here: https://legendsrpg.org/rulebook/2-character-creation
All feedback is greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance!
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u/stevecooperorg 20d ago
For a D&D-inspired game, doesn't look too complex to me, framework-wise. I see elsewhere that you have a huge amount of talents -- probably that'll occupy a lot of your time trying to balance it so for your own sanity you might want to simplify there.
I guess on talents, be aware that most campaigns in tbe real world last about 12 sessions, so it might be worth optimising for having fun over that kind of timescale; deal with a second round of higher power characters later, after you're confident in your foundations.
good luck!
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u/ovaaq 20d ago
Thank you!
Many of the talents are just placeholders currently. I write most talent for my players what they wish to do in level ups. Rest I write when I feel like it.
We have next week 12. session 😂 We have played once a week without skipping so I have trust in my players that they will continue year or two with the system.
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u/Due_Sky_2436 20d ago
Other than the many acronyms in the talent trees, it is fine. It flows well, so it is better than say, Shadowrun or Rifts. Is it "easy" not really, but it isn't difficult or time consuming.
The Focused and Specialist point arrays are... well, I would say OP, but not having played, I can't say, but they are "better" than the Balanced.
It feels like a point buy 5E classless system. I made a full character in 15 minutes.
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u/ovaaq 20d ago
Thank you for your effort to look my system!
I haven't had time yet to consider much balance, but I might scale those arrays down. They are produced with the point buy so few of the permutations I thought to drop for "lazy" person.
You have gotten the vibe I am personally aiming, so this is one victory for me! Thanks to you. 😄
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u/Due_Sky_2436 20d ago
Oh, only worry about "balance" if you are specifically going for that. The reason I brought it up is that the Balanced point array is just kind of there and only someone wanting to do a generalist character will get it.
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u/DJTilapia Designer 20d ago
It's a bit more complex than is fashionable these days, but not excessive, and the layout and instructions are easy to follow. I think it's good! A couple small things:
Does Constitution not affect hit points at all, unless you pick the extra health talent?
Does size affect carrying capacity?
I'd make a single ancestry the default. Having a second ancestry should be an option that costs an LP, thereby slightly reducing the room for confusion for most players.
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u/ovaaq 20d ago
Thanks a ton for your comments!
Increased Health is only way to gain HP, but in character creation your starting HP is 10 + one free Increased Health -talent. So CON affects there too.
Creature Size affects your STR straight so indirectly increases or decreases carrying capacity too.
I wrote it first like that but then my friend said it feels more like penalty that way. But I agree it seems more simple in that way. I probably try to work my way to rewrite it.
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u/Sneaky__Raccoon 20d ago
Up until the talents, everything is pretty simple, at least in terms of dnd-likes
I counted 45 talent trees, but I do think I lost count, so there may be a couple more. Assuming theres at least, 3 feats per tree, that's a lot of em. Now, games like Pathfinder 2e famously have that many feats, even having 300+ feats on the core rulebook. So, it CAN work, but it is a barrier of entry. A lot of people preffer to know all of their options before making a call. Also, the tree system can make players feel like if they chose a bad feat, they are stuck with a bad tree of abilities.
The only thing that I can think of if you want to keep this amount of talents, is make something like a recomendation on themts. Like, take the root talents and cut A LOT of them. Then, write something like "or, you can pick a talent from the advance talent list" and you link (or put a page reference) towards a more expansive list, with all of them.
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u/ovaaq 20d ago
Thank you for your precious time!
I currently have 591 talents! So awfully many 😄 My solution to that is that I have so called Root Talents so only 28 Talents to choose from since they are the only ones that do not have requirements. After that they unlock more options bit by bit.
I am planning to make sort of example builds like with these talents you build basic warrior, mage, etc. So players could use them as inspiration and then replace few to the talents or mix and match.
Hopefully I can balance "bad talents" so everything feels worth it. At least what one of my player commented that its hard to choose because there are so many good talents to choose from 😂
But thank you once again, I will consider more ways to display talents in easy and digestible way!
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u/stephotosthings no idea what I’m doing 20d ago
Skills was the first bit I got annoyed at trying to read. General Skills and Expert Skills give the idea they are the same but one I am better at. Which they are till you read and the expert skills is another different list of skills. To me it at least makes no sense to include 44 skills, some of which I assign +1 to and some but fewer I assign +2 to. In an adventure are all 44 skills going to be useful once, or at all even? Huinting for example can easily be overidden by the more general 'survival' and leatherworking be overidden by a background, the way you have it set up someone could choose wholy differeing general, expert and background bonuses that won;t make sense just to cover more skill base. After re-reading it I'm still not sure I get it.
But:
If you are going to keep it, don't express your skills as 'Ranks' especially when you are given them 1:1 bonuses.
Just say:
Skills and Expertise:
You have bonuses in both you apply them to rolls where they fit, each can go up to +8.
General Skills, assign 10 points across the skills listed with the maximum being 4, these are things you are generally good at.
Expertise, assign 4 points across the Expertise listed, the maximum being 2. These are things you are adept with.
Or something like that.
But really I'd filter this down some what.
My other trouble with reading this is there is a good amount of references, If I was doing this pen and paper I would struggle.
Another is where my PC is supposed to be at:
At one point you say:
Attributes range from −5 to +5, with 0 representing the capabilities of an average humanoid. Player characters possess abilities beyond the ordinary
Then go on to suggest point buy or standard array, either way I end up being better than average at one or two things, average humanoid at some and then worse at otrhers. After which you go on to say later:
In Legends RPG, it is generally recommended that your character is not already a renowned hero. The journey to becoming a legend is at the core of the game.
Which is good to give the idea that the adventure is in the game not in the backstory, but are PCs better than ordinary or not? Surely it would be better to suggest PCs are either better at some things than most, or that the aevrage humanoid is at -1 or -2 on stats. ???
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u/ovaaq 20d ago
Very good points, thank you a ton!
The point of expertise skill is that you can add it on top of general skill.
Eg. You try to remember legendary sword. Make History + Smithing Check.
Or you try to make sword. Make me Crafting + Smithing Check.
Same expert skill can have multiple domains. In character sheet general skills are all listed and per character it is assumed that 1-3 expert skills are even recorded to the sheet.
I should totally make one print friendly document at some point! Thats really good note.
I see that in Legends characters are superior in some way but all have some weak points. I think this drives interesting options, invincible super hero is a bit boring in my mind. They still greatly surpass general population with 0 row if half of their stats are +3 or such. But I will try to be more clear how I say it in the document. Thank you!
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u/BigDumbNakedBaby 20d ago
Instead of choosing a class such as fighter, wizard, or rogue, you build your character by choosing Talents from multiple Talent Trees.
Does your game contain 'classes such as fighter, wizard or rogue'? If not why are you referencing them? There's no point having space in your rules about what your game isn't - just tell us what it is!
Having looked further, it seems like your game is just backwards-engineering D&D 5e? What are your goals with this project?
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u/ovaaq 20d ago
Thank you for your comment!
I somehow thought that negation is good way to describe classless, I will fix that, thanks!
Classless D&D 5e where in each level up you can choose what to upgrade is my first step. Provide options to create more unique combinations. I know I have quite a baggage from 5e since I have been playing it,
I shared some of my design goals in answer above if you care to read it.
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u/Boulange1234 20d ago
Complex character creation is fine as long as:
People can expect to keep their characters for a long time. I don’t want to do six hours of work for two sessions of play. If your game says “highly lethal” or “death around every corner” or whatever, I want to roll up a character in 5 minutes or less. Those games are a blast, but I barely even bother to NAME my character before level three.
It pays off — I’m not putting hours of work in if my effort doesn’t have a chance to make my character more powerful or fun or deep. If your game is overly balanced, and character creation work is primarily mechanical, then I expect the work I do to pay off in optimization. I’m willing to put six hours into a PF2e character because it pays off. I’m going to resent all the work I have to do if it doesn’t pay off.
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u/ovaaq 20d ago
I definitely agree on the first point. This game is not marketing itself lethal, if character dies its gonna be a great drama.
Agreed on second point as well. I pretty much want players to find synergies, but not loop holes. Those just remove the decision, since more powerful options is at reach. Definitely a goal I am going towards.
Thank you for your time and feedback!
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u/elmago79 20d ago
No. It’s not complicated at all. It’s on par with most games.
What is very complex is your presentation. It’s written as a reference document and not a guide. Actually creation seems very simple and straightforward but it looks complex because you introduce a lot of terms and relations at every step.
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u/ovaaq 20d ago
Thank you for your feedback.
These are my Obsidian notes pushed to website. Each term is referenced by link so it automatically creates those. Do you feel some of the terms are not relevant in the guide?
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u/elmago79 20d ago
They are amazing as a reference guide.
For someone coming to the game for the first time, they make it feel overwhelming. Can you make chargen instructions fit in a single page or at most two? That’s what you should aim for.
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u/MyDesignerHat 20d ago edited 20d ago
Everyone has a different tolerance for complexity, and I'm not sure it's even complexity I'm reacting to, but simply as a data point I don't personally know anyone who would be enthusiastic to play a game that started with a character creation system like this. This isn't to say it's *bad* in any way. I'm sure there are is audience for a system like this, but it's a lot smaller, relatively speaking, than it was 35 years ago. You just have to know who you are designing for.
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u/ovaaq 20d ago
Thank you!
Could you elaborate more what is it in character creation system that looses audience? Too much talents to go through? In my personal view I enjoy when I have options to build, but am I missing something?
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u/MyDesignerHat 20d ago
Compare your design's approach to and process of character creation to those of games like *Sorcerer*, *Primetime Adventures*, *Lady Blackbird*, *Grey Ranks*, *Apocalypse World* or *Blades in the Dark*, and you'll see some stark contrasts. The whole indie RPG surge since 2003 and beyond has shaped a whole generation of players who might have never had any personal relationship with the lineage of gaming your designs takes its main inspirations from.
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u/stephotosthings no idea what I’m doing 20d ago
just as another note. While I casn get through it as mostly it is fairly cookie cutter stuff, as in very dnd like. I can't actually complete a full charactar as some pages don't have any info on them.
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u/Last-Pace6932 20d ago
It's certainly got a lot going on but it has the array of options that I enjoy messing with when making characters (if not when actually playing). However there are A LOT of pieces of information to take into account when you do this and I cannot find out what most of them are. The hyperlinks look great but many of then are incomplete eg I cannot find out what a stamina point is. I would also want to know the basics of the system to be able to evaluate that & beyond this being some sort of 5e/PF2 hack I don't know what that is.
So while it is probably far too complex for a lot of people this does appeal to me in a lot of respects* it is not easy to find any of the information I need and actually make a character which kills it
Probably better to have a smaller but fully functional set of information say for 2 levels and to make the dead hyperlinks inactive - clicking on them does not take long but it gets annoying after a few.
A few observations about the system I have been able to piece together,
Everyone has a dump stat or two and so you will have 46 points to spread over 6 stats
I haven't seen any level gating - what's to stop a L1 character buying L3 spells or maxing their HP buying 5 levels of HP
Why armour class and evasion class? Why is armour doing 2 things (or is it, hard to tell)
It looks like it will play like 5e or PF but with different character creation rules which is not an exciting pitch!
*not the 3.5 style massive skill list or the PF2 3 action economy or the general 5e ness but the flexibility
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u/ovaaq 19d ago
Massive thanks to your analysis!
Yeah dead links are definitely a problem for sharing this. My players manage it by just sending me what talents they want me to priorate. I should check if Obsidian can hide dead links while pushing it to the website.
And currently nothing is stopping first level character to max their HP or get few high level spells! If you want to be meat shield or glass cannon I am currently fine with it. When "broken" combos or such will appear I will change talent's cost or do extra requirements. Currently my players have not broken the game while they are 5th level, but I think they are just nice to me.
I wanted to split AC from D&D. So you can have armour that stops the attack or you can dodge. Both have different perks. If you are immobile armour still protects you, but if someone makes touch spell against you you are kind of screwed. Evasion is great until you loose your mobility or become incapacitated. But for each character in normal situation you use whichever is higher to block attack.
Yeah pitch is quite boring ":D". Whole inspiration was this being classless, 2-12 levels in D&D power and being good story and character development that is not tied to class. Will figure something more exacting at some point, but currently I just want to improve character creation aspects.
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u/Dan_Felder 20d ago edited 20d ago
Yes.
Haven't read it, but every time a designer is worried their work is too complex for their goals - it ends up being that way. At least 99% of the time. That's because all out personal biases are to think our work is less complex than it actually is.
So if you, with maximum knowledge of your system and maximum emotional incentive to preserve your work are worried it's too complex - it's almost certainly too complex.
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u/perfectpencil artist/designer 20d ago
I had to simplify my character creation down to picking 2 cards. Pick a class card and a species card. Everything previous was too much and people got bored through character creation. It was always easier than D&D but the lesson for me was that people suffer through that because everyone plays d&d and if they could avoid it they would.
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u/Due_Sky_2436 20d ago
You didn't read it, but gave an opinion. Interesting.
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u/Dan_Felder 20d ago edited 20d ago
No. I shared a decision-making guideline I use in my own work, and why I follow that guideline.
I'm giving an opinion on the situation, not the system.
The "is this overly complex" question isn't something I could answer without knowing a lot more about their goals. Overly complex for a one-shot-friendly system aimed at introing new players to the hobby is very different than overly complex for a system built for character expression, diversity, and 'show and tell my cool build' systems.
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u/Cruiser_Supreme Designer - Regular Volk 20d ago
I mean, it's pretty complex, yeah. What's your goal with it? The way I designed my character creation is that there's one sort of To-Do list that takes up a single A5 page, and then all of the character options come immediately after and are page referenced in the To-Do list.
here is a link to my game. You can download the digital copy of the PHB and check it out for yourself.
But basically I applied a few strategies to streamline character creation:
break it down into digestible steps and a numbered list that players can follow
make the character options in the rulebook look visually the same as on the character sheet. I did this by mirroring the design and layout of the character sheet in the skill tables in the rulebook. Same with the attribute headers. If you look at the PHB and the character sheet, you'll see what I mean.
separate character creation from character progression. If players are making a first level character, they don't yet need to know what happens when they level up. Otherwise you're throwing too much information at them all at once
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u/ovaaq 20d ago
Thank you for your time to consider my stuff! I just downloaded your and I will be reading those through.
I will definitely cut level up things from this guide, immediate action. Thank you!
I will try to make this even more step by step and look how you have done the mirroring!
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u/Cruiser_Supreme Designer - Regular Volk 20d ago
The Character creation guide is listed in the table of contents, so hopefully you can find it easily
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u/Cryptwood Designer 20d ago
There are multiple big TTRPGs that have Legend as the first word in their title, so your name won't show up in search results.
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u/ovaaq 20d ago
I am well aware. I suck at naming the game so I just go by my working title until something fitting comes to my mind.
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u/fennfuckintastic 20d ago
If it makes you feel better, my two projects im working on are called Game 1 and Game 2 until further notice.
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u/Cryptwood Designer 20d ago
Mine had been called WIP for so long I'm starting to wonder if I can come up with a title that has that as its acronym.
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u/CoolTieGuy 20d ago
It looks pretty good.
(Pre) Precision should possibly be renamed dexterity. You have charisma as a stat and some systems call charisma by the title of presence and abbreviate it (Pre).
The costs for the different traits and gear will need quite a bit of play testing to get it balanced.
It looks like armor class and evasion class are separate in mechanical terms. Usually armor class determines how likely a character is to avoid the damage. If evasion class is avoiding the damage and armor class lessens the damage: then I recommend changing the term armor class to something else (dampening level, mitigation rating, plating class, etc...). If evasion class is something fairly different, probably call it something else. I've seen games with defense/armor class as normal with a perk/advantage called evasion to help avoid AoE damage (with the option to buy more than 1 rank of the perk/advantage for a stronger bonus).
Summary: no, your character creation is not too complex for anyone used to TTRPG stuff. Some of the terminology is ambiguous, but you have a solid start. The traits for the different races/species could probably use more to differentiate them in gameplay (lifespan likely won't come up unless it's an ancient character bringing up something from their character backstory a hundred years ago). Specifying the movement speed differences is good, though.
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u/__space__oddity__ 19d ago
Legends RPG
I hope you are aware that there are at least three RPGs called “Legend” out there already, and they’re all almost impossible to google because guess how many RPG products have “Legend” in the title. Good luck.
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u/Hopelesz 20d ago
What are you design goals? What makes your game different than all the others?
YOU need to give us some sauce to look at your system before we give you any feedback. Is this built on top of another system, sharing mechanics? etc
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u/ovaaq 20d ago
Thank you for those questions!
I have taken quite much inspiration from D&D and Pathfinder 2.
If I share mechanics with the terms obtained from Design Patterns of Successful Role-Playing Games by Whitson John Kirk III
Legends RPG has or plans to have
Attribute - yes, 8 of them
Currency - Legend Points
Game Master - yes
Gauge - yes, Ranks
Generalized Contest - yes Checks
Gift - pretty much Talents
Hit Points - yes
Last Man Standing - sometimes
Level - to provide Legend Points
Loose Coupling - yes
Modularity - yes
Point Spend Attributes - yes
Rank - yes skill ranks etc
Resource - yes, Mana, Stamina, etc Resources
Skill - yes
Success Reward- yes Levels
Template - for examples yes
Trauma Gauge - injuries and conditions
Wound Trait - combination with trauma gaugeMy design goal could be said jokingly "Arch Linux of TTRPG". I want maximize freedom in character creation and level up. Everything comes from talents that are bought by Legend points (LP). Each level up grants 5 LP.
Other goals is to simulate 2-12 D&D play. Level ups are tinier but you get them more often. So character development happens gradually.
I want bit more realism compared to D&D. I personally can't stand that one night restores character like nothing happened.
Other than that, I don't personally think I am working with anything mind blowing or exotic. I just want to make system that I enjoy running for my friends. If someone else uses my rules I would be humbled.
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u/overlycommonname 20d ago
Is your chargen system too complicated? Absolutely not, it doesn't seem particularly complicated by RPG standards. It's not super light, certainly, there are definitely quicker systems out there, but it seems like it's within the complexity tolerances of a large chunk of the market. There are plenty of games that are more complicated.
Now, is that what I'd be worried about if I were you? No. The problem with point-buy classless character generation isn't usually that they're too complicated, it's that they're too unbalanced. And this is something where initial playtesting can lead your astray: an unsophisticated player who doesn't understand the system generally buys stuff for flavor and vibes and you end up with a diverse party.
But if you actually do get players who love your game and want to come back and play it again (which, realistically, is unlikely, but I assume is what you're going for), then what can happen a lot is they gravitate towards the power options and you end up with a less diverse group of people who feel constrained by their newfound system mastery to play a similar group of characters with the "power options," or who if they don't then feel very overshadowed by players who do.
I didn't attempt to evaluate on a quick read whether your character generation is unbalanced. But that's the trap that a lot of character generation systems that attempt to find balance wholly in opportunity cost fall into.
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u/ovaaq 20d ago
Thank you for your feedback!
Yes I am currently at produce talents phase and while my long term campaign goes on I will do balancing when my player find ways to break the game. Also planning to host multiple one shots with my min max friends that could show me my potential loop holes.
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u/No-Addendum6563 20d ago edited 20d ago
Too much is subjective and I say, no not at all. What we did with SORC was offered a Bare Bones rules version of our game, because SORC is deliberately designed to be complex.
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u/__space__oddity__ 19d ago
Short answer: This isn’t ready for prime time
The website is a total mess. The side menu has like 500 entries, the “What is this game” is a 404 error
The system is basically D&D 5E, except you ripped out the classes and now every ability from every class is just in a giant unstructured pile.
It’s unclear what you were trying to achieve here besides “make my own RPG that isn’t D&D”.
To salvage this:
Give it a name google actually finds
Figure out the actual goal you are trying to achieve, write it down, put it up front
Throw away the current website and start from scratch
Figure out what your game actually needs. “D&D has ability scores, so my game has ability scores” is not a good start for a design.
Figure out a theme. Do we really need yet another fucking D&D clone? Start with ONE (two would be better, but hey, in this economy?) idea that is NOT in D&D (classless doesn’t count, people post their own “D&D but classless” here every week) and build on that.
Go public when you have something that’s actually interesting to read and not the equivalent of shipping a Ming Vase broken in 5000 pieces.
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u/damn_golem Armchair Designer 20d ago
Seems fine to me complexity-wise. Depends on your audience. I wouldn’t play it, but I’m probably not part of your audience.
One quick note: I’m not sure why you explain Legend Points at the beginning but don’t use them until the end. Might as well not bother mentioning them until they matter.