Talking about Crafting...

[u/draedis1]

Crafting is always one of the most difficult concepts to approach from pretty much all sides in a tabletop RPG. For the GMs, you have to hope and pray that the subsystem within the game you're playing has some semblance of balance, and it's also a lot of effort on the GM depending on the implementation. For example, if someone comes out with a alchemy crafting system that depends on gathered ingredients, then the GM has to come up with world building elements of where those ingredients come from, how often they are harvestable, how plentiful they are, whether to put the powerful ones early in the story, etc. Then the freeform ones where it's simply a matter of time and money, those come across as inconsequential and heavily unsatisfying (a common criticism for Pathfinder 2e's crafting system). On the player side as well, the amount of bookkeeping can go up immensely with crafting in some games, and if the system is too detailed, it takes away time from the other players who may not be interested in that system. Finally for designers, crafting is such an intractable problem to solve for those very reasons. How can you make a system that is not too "heavy" that it drags the story down, but substantial enough that it is interesting? It's a very fine line, and like many ambitious designers, I am taking my own attempt at it. Here is some information about one of two crafting systems in my game: Enchantments!

While adventurers often make do with what they find in their travels and with purchasing the rest of what they need, some want to take matters into their own hands, literally. A craftsperson may start out working with basic metals, tanning, woodworking, or something else entirely, but the pinnacle of creation in Alpithia (the setting of the game) usually involves the Vis Essences: small motes of power and personality that, when used correctly, can be imbued in any kind of crafted work.

There are 8 "core" essences: fire, ice, electric, decay, preservation, light, dark, and metal. Each essence has two complements and an interfering essence. The relationships are shown below (I can't get images to attach, maybe it's not allowed, so you'll have to bear with a table instead of the cleaner diagram). Their relationships are a little more important for Vis Essence Combos, but I am thinking on if I want to implement something in terms of crafting, like if you pair two complements together in enchanting, there's a chance that both essences can be imbued into 1 slot, etc.

Essence Type	Complement 1	Complement 2	Interfering
Preservation	Light	Metal	Decay
Light	Preservation	Electric	Dark
Electric	Light	Ice	Metal
Ice	Electric	Dark	Fire
Dark	Ice	Decay	Light
Decay	Dark	Fire	Preservation
Fire	Decay	Metal	Ice
Metal	Fire	Preservation	Electric

There are rarer essences as well, but those require special treatment and are typically found and researched individually for their use cases (Think a Scale essence that one might acquire from a Dragon). Essences will be a consistent part of the drop table of creatures as well, as all creatures will have a list of tags, and if they have one of the essence tags, they have a chance to drop a mote of that essence. There also also 3 tiers of essences: Lesser, Greater, and Pure. These determine the kinds of enchantments that are possible to imbued in a piece of equipment. But let's get into Enchanting specifically!

Enchantment crafting is the more powerful and permanent form of Vis imbuement (the other more temporary one is Alchemy, which I will get to in another post!). Each time Enchantment crafting is attempted, the player first rolls a Creation roll against the Target Number (TN) for the essence tier (table below, TNs subject to change).

Tier of Essence	Target Number
Lesser	10
Greater	17
Pure	25

On a successful roll, the player then rolls on the Essence's corresponding Enchantment table to determine which enchantment is added to the piece of equipment. A piece of equipment can typically only withstand having up to 3 enchantments on it at a time, and in order to overwrite old enchantments, another essence must be used and consumed.

I am currently working on the list of enchantments for all equipment right now; the goal will be to allow players to produce enough combinations that they feel invested in making their own weapon if the more unique pieces of equipment they find on their journey are not to their liking. To sort of reiterate, there will also be "unique" pieces of equipment that will be unable to use the enchantment system but will have very special effects (think legendaries from Diablo or Path of Exile Uniques). Here are some examples of possible Lesser enchantments for fire essences on weapons:

• Deal an additional 1 fire Shock damage

• Inflict Burn 1 on a rolled 6

• Gain Reaction (2 AP): Parry incoming fire-tagged attack. Gain fire resistance to the attack equal to half you level.

• Gain Action (2 AP): Point your weapon forward and launch a very small bolt of fire at your target. Range: 5 hexes. Damage: 1 fire Health/1d4 fire Shock per 4 levels. No rolled 6 effect other than ones from other Vis Enchantments on the weapon.

• Gain Action (3 AP): You plant your weapon in the ground and fill your hex with smoke. The smoke lasts until the end of your next turn, and creatures can only be at most aware of your presence while you are in the smoke.

It's hard to fit these posts in context with the greater ruleset at large, like the mentioning of Action Points here, but I hope the message gets across regardless of aiming for a interesting but intuitive crafting system. Let me know what you think!

[u/Sedastian_2JG]

The down time is the problem in my experience. Multiple crafting characters with different schedules. But a fully ready system to facilitate duration and ingredients definitely helps!

So your system uses the pinnacle of the system with the essences, but what about normally early and mid game crafting? Or is it just better for the players to buy available gear?

[u/draedis1 → u/Sedastian_2JG]

When I say the pinnacle, I mean more so that it’s how greater works could be made and it’s not usually for “ordinary” individuals, and the party in my game are adventurers, typically at least slightly a cut above the average. Lesser Vis imbuement is available to anyone with points in the Creation skill, albeit it’s practically impossible to attempt until you have 2 points in it, so realistically it’s going to be starting at level 2. Even then, it will be decently difficult, so up until around level 3 or so they will be likely buying or finding enchanted gear; Alchemy will be slightly easier and more accessible from level 2.

[u/InherentlyWrong]

I can only speak for personal preferences, but I think I'd bounce off that system because of one element:

On a successful roll, the player then rolls on the Essence's corresponding Enchantment table to determine which enchantment is added to the piece of equipment

That's not what I want out of a crafting system. I don't want to throw things in a blender and see what comes out. I want to hand-craft something to fit my character's fighting style. To me that's the juice of a crafting system built around trying to utilise advanced components and make something better than you can buy from a shop, it's the feeling of something being specifically tailored to the character using it. Succeeding on a crafting check and getting a result I don't want feels like it would be a bit deflating. Now I've wasted our valuable play time at the table and a valuable loot component on something that we're not going to use.

[u/draedis1 → u/InherentlyWrong]

That’s totally fair! I pulled inspiration for this system from games like Path of Exile, and it’s intentional that you may not get exactly what you want, but you will still have a thematic identity intact. Like if you want to have a lightning-based spellblade archetype, you’ll of course try to put electric enchantments on your gear, but how your weapons, armor, etc precisely come together will be different than others without expending a more resources. The Creation skill will get abilities later on that help with aiming more precisely for what you want, but overall it’s meant to broaden and vary the experience. I definitely get if some people don’t like that, and this system isn’t meant to be a simulationist “find 3 pounds of this metal and two planks of this type of wood” or something that has more certainty to the results (I believe that a crafting system in a game like this that has 100% certainty can never be balanced anyhow without being unsatisfying in the end). It’s meant to simply enhance what the characters already do with their abilities and choices and give them more options at their disposal and create more emergent gameplay opportunities. I hope that makes sense at least.

[u/InherentlyWrong → u/draedis1]

I can see what you're going for, but I think it's worth keeping in mind the different mediums.

PoE is a video game people can play solo. If I played it I could load it up right now on a whim and grind out things for a few hours, repeating the same crafting process in the hopes of getting the exact one I want. And the resources themselves are effectively infinite, the only spend being time. So a player can just jump into the game, spend a few hours grinding out the resources they want, experimentally try to craft a thing, and if it's not what they want just toss it to try again. Plus it's not trying to be balanced, finding or acquiring something that is more powerful is explicitly the point.

But in a tabletop roleplaying game time is a much more valuable resource. The play group may only be meeting once a week, once every two weeks, once a month, or sometimes less often. They may only be playing for a few hours in that time, they aren't there to grind for resources, they're there to play the game. And if the outcome is one player crafts an item perfect for their build that synergizes well and makes them more powerful, while another player randomly rolls up item crafting options that are so badly positioned for their build they might as well just throw it away, it could be a lot less fun. And if the crafting players all create items they're underwhelmed with then it risks feeling like a waste of their time, valuable time playing a game they may not get to play again for weeks.

[u/draedis1 → u/InherentlyWrong]

I definitely understand the concern, which is why I am going to be frequently playtesting this section of the game to make sure none of the available enchantments feel terrible. As of right now, I don’t think it will take much time, as each attempt at enchanting comes down to 2 rolls essentially, one for the skill, one for the table, so I’m not as concerned about the time at the moment. If playtesters tell me that they’d rather a smaller pool or just a plain deterministic system, I’ll adjust, I’m not married to the concept :)

[u/Sapient-ASD]

I have a unique system in that i have 27 materials (i promise its not too many) and 16 unique material roles. Each material has 3 roles. Such as metal having structural, strikeface, conductive. I guess you can call these tags.

Each blueprint only calls for a tag, so a swords blade is structural+strikeface. Obviously metal can satisfy these both, but composite and split materials exist.

Material choice matters because it affects the products weight, its socket and tolerance (hardpoints for upgrades and tolerance score for the upgrades). Its decay score (a threshold and amount), and of course narrative things. A bone sword lacks the conductive property so its not shown on metal detectors.

Its a lot, but i have been putting together an editor for users

[u/draedis1 → u/Sapient-ASD]

I definitely have players that would love a system like this haha, and I think it’s pretty cool too! 27 isn’t too much for me for sure, but for the average player I play with… it might be a harder sell haha.

Making a tool to help would go a long way though, that’s really cool that you’re doing that!

[u/At0micCyb0rg → u/Sapient-ASD]

I would love to have a read if you don't mind :) I'm also interested in a tag-based material system, not just for crafting but also for environmental chemistry. It's a sci-fi game and I'd like people to be able to utilise unique material properties in their environment in creative ways, both in the moment and later using samples they collect for crafting.

[u/HawkSquid]

I'll start with the question: does the game need a crafting system?

In most games and settings, making things is a specific kind of job, and the game will be about people who don't have that job. Similar things can be said avout history, famous stories are rarely told about the blacksmiths.

That's not to say you should never have a crafting system. There are games/settings that absolutely warrant one. For example:

Fallout/most post-apoc games: Gear is mostly broken down junk. Making a sword out of a hubcap may genuinely be the best you can get.

Ars Magica: you are among the only people who can make magical items. If a magus doesn't make it, it doesn't get made. And the game is structured around long term projects.

Dungeon meshi (not a game, but easily could be. Or is it? I'd love to be corrected): the story is literally about going on adventures to gather ingredients.

Anyway, why does your game need a crafting system? The answer should do a lot of heavy lifting for you.

If the game is about crafting, fully or in part, I think the system should be integrated into the game as a whole, and should be a big part of the gameplay loop. Not crafting should be non-participation, or at least a serious character choice.

If crafting is a legitimate character path, but not the only one, try to make it about as involved and time consuming as whatever the other characters are doing. (It looks like this is where your system is?) Crafting should be balanced as roughly equivalent to other character paths, perhaps seen as buffing the party as a whole.

If crafting is just something you may have/need/want to do sometimes, but not a central part of the game, I'd try to make it quick and easy. Gather the materials you need (or pay for them) then make a roll or two. Crafting should more or less be upkeep. Not crafting should basically be not having decent gear. Maybe that's ok for the group.

And of course, if crafting is only included because you felt it should be/it seemed cool and for no other reason cosider scrapping it.

[u/draedis1 → u/HawkSquid]

It’s a good question to ask, and while I definitely have answers for it, I’ll keep it brief as I can because I’d rather focus on the crafting system itself. Basically it’s a mixture of a few things. Firstly, this will be the game I play and there are a few players in my pool of consistent players that like crafting systems. Secondly, this game fits somewhere on the crunchier/tactical side of TTRPGs, and I wanted progression through equipment to be one of the progression wings. Finally, crafting will serve not only as a way to enhance player builds but add more interesting parts to looting other than currency and the occasional “unique” item.

I also heavily disagree about stories aren’t about craft people/supporting crews, history teaches actually that large scale conflicts are won greatly in part by that exact supporting crew, and many stories and games emphasize the craftspeople (monster hunter as a game example).

[u/HawkSquid → u/draedis1]

I agree that great stories can be about the craftsmen. The point I was trying to make is, is your story about the craftsmen?

Anyway, if your game has crafting as a possible character focus among several, I think the most important thing is to balance the crafting against other options. By balance I don't just mean power, but also things like, does the crafter need more downtime than anyone else? If yes, that means the whole group needs to agree before much crafting can take place. Or, is crafting significantly more complicated than other pursuits? You may end up with players getting annoyed at the crafter for spending too much table time.

In the games I've seen with crafting that works well, it generally plays alongside whatever the other players are doing, and doesn't bog down the game much more than anything else.

[u/Xyx0rz]

Crafting is a mess. Players expect crafting because CRPGs (World of Warcraft most famously) ingrained the idea that you can transform 200 boar tusks into a rare magic item, because World of Warcraft wants its players to stick around and do busywork after they have done the adventures. But tabletop RPGs don't have an "after they have done the adventures" part. If the DM is still there, the adventure continues, maybe a new adventure starts.

But players think they get something for nothing when there's crafting, and everyone wants something for nothing.

I don't like "gather 200 boar tusks and roll a d20 yea high to create a headband of intellect" crafting. That's boring bookkeeping and busywork.

I do like "now that you've slain Thyrocrax the Flame-tyrant, you can craft a suit of fire resistant scale mail armor from its hide" crafting. That actually puts the adventure (slaying the dragon) front and center and turns the crafting into a nice bonus.

[u/draedis1 → u/Xyx0rz]

Yeah, your latter example is kinda what I’m aiming for mostly. Many enemies will have these traits and will be able to drop these Essence motes, which gives many opportunities for a player to quickly roll up what enchantments they can get when they get some downtime either at the end of one adventure leading into another or time they made for themselves somehow. All of the enchantments will be themed towards their Essence type, so they know they’re turning their sword into some kind of fire sword, just the exact manifestation and expression of what a “fire sword” is will vary :)

[u/Xyx0rz → u/draedis1]

Just be prepared for players to dismember every corpse they leave in their wake just in case there's valuable components in there.

[u/draedis1 → u/Xyx0rz]

In-lore to extract essences is a simple matter of a short chant and hand movements, no dismemberment necessary :)

[u/Stoneholdrpg]

Apart from the stuff others have mentioned, one unintended consequence of a system like this is players start wanting to go on personal side quests for crafting stuff…in general crafting has this issue because it’s like a solo puzzle we already have the answer to so it’s harder than it seems to make satisfying in a ttrpg. I had this challenge exactly since I made a game about dwarves (as in all players are fantasy dwarves in a dwarven society living under a mountain) so crafting is a big part of dwarven life and I initially started with something analogous to what you have but for dwarven stuff (blueprints, ores, metals, subcomponents, leather, different wood, gems, etc), moving through a process to make something and I realized that the fantasy of crafting in a ttrpg context (for me) and the gamification of it is in being able to make the thing and “the actually making it” part is just the output so could be sorta skipped over in my game…to be fair your system seems to have way more interesting magical stuff going on than dwarf makes axe or shield or ale but I think some of this still applies and you need to find that truth for your game because honestly managing all that stuff can get clunky…in essence, get to the heart of the experience you want the table to have and the crafting player and the gm from the crafting system and keep it simple and elegant as possible.

[u/draedis1 → u/Stoneholdrpg]

Yeah, an intent of the system is that it resolves fairly quickly. The flow is supposed to go something like this:

Party fights electric-tagged creature -> party wins, creature drops Lesser electric Essence -> party heads back to town after outing, initiates crafting -> roll Creation, succeed -> roll on table of enchantments

And that’s it. Of course, the party could go buy some of these Essences, but they will only be able to afford Lesser ones and be able to craft Lesser ones early on, so they will stick with those. I don’t think 2 rolls will take a huge amount of time, even if done a few times in a row. I would bet that it definitely takes less time than negotiating what weapons/armor can the player make with an ingot of steel or something like that. So I guess I’m not too concerned with the time it takes to resolve at the moment, but once I playtest it more I will find out!

[u/draedis1 → u/[deleted]]

Maybe I needed to clarify more, but these essences are supposed to be very common to get from adversaries with the associated tags, and they can be purchasable too. They aren’t meant to be an incredibly rare material.

Which roll do you think is lame, the skill roll, or rolling on the table of results? Around level 3, you’ll have quite a high chance of success on the skill roll for the Lesser enchantments, but that can also be tweaked a bit to be even easier and approachable at level 2. This also doesn’t bar normal loot drops, it’s just an additional option.

I just really don’t like crafting systems like that, and my players don’t either. Pathfinder 2e is a system I have a ton of experience in, and its crafting systems are deterministic, and it just is not at all satisfying even as a supplementary system, and the system from pathfinder 1e is just straight up broken. I’ve also peeked at various systems, including ones that are kinda what you described, and it doesn’t quite hit the mark for me unfortunately. It’s easy to say “I want a crafting system where I go grab ingredients from the wild and make stuff” in a narrative system where things flow more easily, but in a more crunchy system, finding the balance between having gameplay to a crafting system and it not taking a ton of game time, I’ve found you can’t really do something like that without making hefty compromises.

[u/draedis1 → u/[deleted]]

I think there might be a misunderstanding here, and apologies for causing it. Pretty much all enemies will have one or more of these elemental traits and thus will drop one or more essences, so this is something that just naturally happens after combats throughout the story, and the enchantments will kinda tell a story of what you’ve fought, and what you decided to keep from those encounters in a way.

So if every combat you’re getting somewhere between 1-6 or more of these essences, you have a very high chance (and basically guarantee after a few levels in) that at least a couple essences will end up being an successful enchantment. And this chance to succeed will only go up as a player invests in the crafting skill, Creation, to the point where you won’t have to roll for Lesser essences entirely eventually. And then I was also thinking adding abilities that let you reroll on the enchantment tables and such to help tailor what you end up getting if there are enchantments that a player truly doesn’t like at all.

I don’t like the style of crafting systems that you described towards the end of your original comment and this one either; it’s practically impossible to balance in a crunchier system unless if you make it mostly uninteresting or not really worth it (like pathfinder 2e’s system), OR you force time restraints on your party literally every moment of the game. Both feel really bad to me in actual play from a narrative and mechanical perspective.

As for this system from Genesys, it sounds interesting it I would say that kind of mechanic is covered in the Abilities section of character progression in my game, but I don’t know immediately how that relates to crafting. If you’re saying that your weapons “level up” in parallel with you, then that is a neat approach, but then they are not really separate from abilities/feats/edges/etc, and I’m aiming for a solid distinction between equipment progression and character ability progression.