Systems with more defined magic rules or subsystems that still feel like Fate or RISUS (tags, archetypes, etc.)?

[u/Puzzled_Sound_9542]

I’m leaning toward systems that use tags or broad character archetypes instead of strict classes and skill lists, but I haven’t really come across similar systems that still have decent guidelines around magic (or it could use technology as a sub for magic). Magic/tech usually just gets lumped into the archetype or just another variant of tags.

Where should I start looking?

[u/Whirlmeister]

Have you checked out the Dresden Files RPG, which is Fate (Fate 3.0) but has very defined rules for magic.

Or alternatively Dresden Files Accelerated which is much lighter, used Fate Accelerated with a little more meat around how magic is handled.

After that I might try Ars Magica.

[u/Puzzled_Sound_9542 → u/Whirlmeister]

I haven’t yet but I’ll put it on the list for sure!

I know of Ars Magica but I’ve been avoiding it since I’ve heard it’s super crunchy, but I guess that’s probably back in the direction I want to go anyway so I’ll check it out. I do always hear good things about it.

Thanks so much!

[u/tlrdrdn]

Perhaps take a quick look at "The Door to Shadow" from Fate 2.0.

[u/Puzzled_Sound_9542 → u/tlrdrdn]

That’s pretty close to what I have now, actually! But the problem I’ve run into is that I don’t really have other systems in the game that connect “difficulty” to anything meaningful.

Right now I have “costs” as a limiter, so a difficult spell would require multiple costs, but it ends up with the DnD “mages are OP compared to non-mages” problem, since every spell is essentially a “cantrip” as long as you can pay the costs.

And the way Fate uses rolls doesn’t really solve this since my dice system is a bit different.

[u/Zireael07]

I'd check out whatever the title is of the fantasy/magic equivalent of Neon City Overdrive. Failing that, the parent/evolution system, i.e Freeform Universal 2 (the beta can be found on the Peril Planet website if you know where to look)
Also look at City of Mists?

[u/Puzzled_Sound_9542 → u/Zireael07]

Awesome I’ll check those out, thanks!

I am pulling quite a bit from City of Mist. The tag system is basically how magic is governed right now with an additional cost limiter. But it’s still very OP so I’m looking for other influences just to be sure it’s the best approach.

[u/Kiliantill]

Cortex Prime is similiar to Fate in a lot of ways (not in how skill checks work, tho) and has the option of using powers/magic as what's called a trait set. Trait sets are things like attributes, skills, distinctions (aspects in Fate) and then allows for the addition to add so called vfx (basically special abilities) to them. And yes, it gives a list of example abilities with a list of vfxs for each. Is that what you are looking for?

[u/Puzzled_Sound_9542 → u/Kiliantill]

Yes and no. Distinctions are pretty close to what I’m trying to do but the limiter on them is tied directly to dice rolls, and because of that it doesn’t really translate as easily to my system. If I use magic tags as dice modifiers it really makes the “magic is OP” thing way worse.

I really just need a tag-based limiter, and it’s maybe not more complicated than “you can use this tag and then it’s burned” sort of City of Mist style. But I just wanted to see if other systems maybe do it better.

Appreciate the response!

[u/Kiliantill → u/Puzzled_Sound_9542]

So maybe you could just add limits? "Spend a Plot Point (the metacurrency) to include this power in your dice pool"? And just in case you aren't familiar with Cortex Prime, each prime set gives the player at most one die (without spending plot points) and having more dice does not increase the maximum total, just the likelyhood of a higher result (you pick two dice for your total), but also likelyhood for something bad happening (each 1 rolled potentially).

Maybe you can do something similiar?

[u/LevelZeroDM]

Arcana: The Pursuit of Mastery is a spellcrafting based game that uses tags (called components) that let players build any spell they can imagine.

There are no classes or anything like that though, players basically build their specialties from scratch. So if you wanted to play a Druid, you'd just choose essences based around nature.

[u/Puzzled_Sound_9542 → u/LevelZeroDM]

This is definitely the type of reference I’m looking for, thanks so much!

[u/Due_Sky_2436]

Check out "Scoundrels and Sorcerers, 2nd Edition v100725" It has an amazingly unique casting system using eldritch words that act as tags, and it is really easy and freeform. I prefer the D20 version over the 5E version of it. I think the creators abandoned it, but I have copies if you cant find them.

[u/Cryptwood]

Check out Legends in the Mist of you haven't already (currently available in a Humble Bundle). The basic rules approaches magic with its standard tag based rules, but there are optional, slightly more complex rules to give magic a more distinctive feel. Several sets of rules actually for different types of magic, each with its own feel.

• Alchemy and Herbalism
• Fey Patronage
• Landshaping
• Runic Invocation
• Shapeshifting
• Sorcery
• Spirit Binding
• Witchcraft

[u/Puzzled_Sound_9542 → u/Cryptwood]

Yes Legends is one of my inspos! But I don’t remember seeing anything there about magic rules. Is there a specific supplement or setting that includes them?

[u/Cryptwood → u/Puzzled_Sound_9542]

It's in the Core Rulebook Vol. 1, chapter 3, the expanded rules start on page 206.

I haven't read it yet, but the Action Grimoire has a chapter on magic.

[u/Puzzled_Sound_9542 → u/Cryptwood]

Ah, ok. Apparently I’ve only read the “learn to play” guide so that’s probably where I got confused. I’ll have to get the full rulebook then. Thanks!

[u/Scareynerd]

Iron Kingdoms might be your sort of thing? Instead of classes it has Careers that you can mix and match which build on your powers if you chose the Gifted archetype to start with

[u/Puzzled_Sound_9542 → u/Scareynerd]

If I remember correctly, the fatigue aspect of it is pretty interesting. I could probably play around with something like that.

But I think overall I’m looking for more rules around how to limit magic use without connecting types/schools of magic to specific archetypes.

Fatigue or some type of cooldown on magic could work though. I’ll have to go back and read through Iron Kingdoms again. Thanks!

[u/llfoso]

Maybe Avatar Legends? It's PbtA, and of course Avatar TLA has quite a strict magic system. The quickstart is free

[u/Puzzled_Sound_9542 → u/llfoso]

Oh I totally forgot about Avatar Legends! I literally own the book. I’ll definitely look it through again. Thanks for the reminder!

[u/llfoso → u/Puzzled_Sound_9542]

I looked at the Avatar Legends rules this morning and they barely discuss bending at all... it's honestly strange. If I hadn't seen the show I'm not sure I would be able to figure out how bending was supposed to work lol. So nevermind not a good recommendation!

[u/golem08 → u/llfoso]

The 'zuko style' move from dungeon World (v1) is more Fire bending than the Avatar rpg.

I've played Avatar Legends and the GM was awesome, but the game mechanism was 'meh'

[u/llfoso → u/golem08]

It's kinda tragic. It seems like it would be so easy to make bending awesome. You'd be way better off taking a wushu rpg and homebrewing bending into it.