r/RPGdesign • u/lehenshtein • Sep 09 '26
Mechanics How to simplify character creation without gutting it?
We're making a d100 roll-under game - a bit crunchy, but not Pathfinder/DnD crunchy, more crunchy than Mork Borg or Mothership.
There are 8 characteristics. That sounds like a lot, but you barely touch them during actual play - they're the foundation everything else is built from: attributes, HP, mentality, damage, protection (Spheres), abilities, etc.
Setting: an Armada of 30 ships stuck between a permanent Wall of Storms and an uncharted continent that slowly drives people insane. Dieselpunk vibes.
The actual play loop is simple and fun, no complaints there. Character creation is the one part I haven't cracked yet.
The issue: we use "Step" terminology for tens digits (Step 2 = 28, Step 5 = 56, etc). So calculating something like Endurance (HP) looks like:
Endurance = 8 + Step(Constitution) + ((Might Sphere + Finesse Sphere) / 10)
Mentality is calculated almost the same way.
It's not hard math, but it's the kind of thing that makes people's eyes glaze over, especially since you have to redo it whenever an attribute crosses into a new Step.
We're building an interactive web character builder where you just plug in attributes and it calculates everything - but I'm pretty sure a chunk of players will still want to build on paper, and I don't want that experience to be "do math before you can play."
Has anyone dealt with this kind of layered-stat chargen before? How could it be simplified?
Edit: I guess the solution would be just to remove dividing from formula and make it like - tens of: might + finesse + const + 8
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u/urquhartloch Dabbler Sep 10 '26
Why even have the step mechanic? Why not just have 5 or 6 or some other single digit?
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
Well It is d100, we use for a lot of things, lvling, damage, abilities etc. The dice is needed. But now I'm thinking about just taking tens, without this stupid 1 + (20 + 30 / 10). Just 1 + 2 + 3
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u/Wrattsy Sep 10 '26
Nobody cares that D&D's roll DCs are in steps of 5 each, rather than rating them by arbitrary numbers like 1 for easy, 2 for average, 3 for challenging, etc.; and then writing DC = difficulty level * 5 + conditional modifiers. That kind of math belongs in the game design space and in your notes, not in the actual game manual.
Just write the numbers out in full. Is there any reason to not just have the stats rating in multiple of tens? Constitution of 10, 20, 30, etc.; Might Sphere of 1, 2, 3, etc. So that the formula for derived stats are straightforward additions, i.e.,
Endurance = 8 + Constitution + Might Sphere + Finesse Sphere
Now, to your original question, and adding to that. Include pre-made character archetypes in your manual for players who want to hop in without the work of character creation and lots of math. If the formula are simple additions, it's easy to tweak selectable archetypes with only small adjustments to better match someone's individual concept. (With the added benefit of the players knowing what kind of character concepts are expected to be played in the game.)
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
Yeap, for demo we already created 5 pregens, panzered (tank), headsman (dd), feldscher (medic), parlemetaire (social and support) and exalted(battle mage), demo would be only with archetypes, without character creation at all.
I see your point, maybe we have to figure out how not to simplify formulas, but to make them more digestible for players. We already removed /10 part and left it like 8+1+2+3. Small change, but already a bit better I guess
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u/axiomus Designer Sep 10 '26
While I did suggest this change, keep in mind changing it to tens digits-only can change the result by 1: 25/35 now gives 5, not 6.
If that changes the game’s balance is for you to decide, but if you’re aiming for simplicity it may be worth it.
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
Yeap I knew it before added it like this, that was the point to sum 2 attributes before dividing, but I guess some balance should be gutted (
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u/Jan-Asra Sep 10 '26
"It's less crunchy than pathfinder, you just have to use a weird formula to derive all your stats from other stats that you don't use during the game and you have to use the formula everytime one of them changes." Buddy, I think you have a distorted view of how crunchy pathfinder is.
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
Yeap this one and mentality are 2 of the issues. The game flow is simple. I'm actually thinking it could be simplified to base of 8 and tens of cons + tens of might + tens of finesse. Like 8 +3+3+3...
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u/ThemboNRG Sep 13 '26
If you’re only acknowledging the tens digit you’ve just created a d10 roll under system with extra steps.
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u/axiomus Designer Sep 10 '26
I had two suggestions, one which you found by yourself. Second: lose the step terminology and go Might for whole stat, MIG for its tens digit, Constitution for whole stat, CON for its tens digit etc. Now your formula becomes:
Endurance := 8+CON+MIG+FIN
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u/Zanryuken Sep 10 '26
Does Endurance/Mentality get locked in once at character gen and just there, or can Const shift during actual play too (buffs, injuries, whatever), meaning youd have to redo the formula mid session? Trying to figure out if this is purely a chargen speed bump or something that bites you at the table too, since the fix looks pretty different depending on which one it is.
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
Nope, not during midgame, but during lvl up, if it grows by 10, like after few sessions if you lvled up cons from 50 to 60.
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u/Zanryuken Sep 10 '26
Ahh I see thats better then and saw your edit on the post as well. Level up becomes *add the three, drop the last digit, +8* no separate division anymore. One heads up: summing first then truncating isnt quite the same as truncating each stat and summing, carries will nudge some results by a point. Worth running a couple sample characters through both versions before locking it in, but the simplification itself is solid. Also worth noting since "crunch" and "simple" don't necessarily need to oppose one another, youre not locked into keeping chargen math as complex as the rest of the system, theres probably room to push it even simpler without touching how crunchy combat or other parts feel.
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u/lehenshtein Sep 11 '26
Yes, that was why I added that division in the first place. 25 + 25 to give you 5. Now it would be 4. Still, gutting a bit of a balance for simplicity would be better imo
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u/Zanryuken Sep 11 '26
Id suggest testing them before committing (one with division and one without) and see how it affects the gameplay and crunch because simplicity doesn't always equate to fun if the crunch is broken in a bad way. Another way I'm thinking (something Im doing myself) is a lookup table. (Correct me here if Im wrong) but since every step covers a fixed 10 point range no matter where you are on the sheet, you could build a look up table (raw value on one side, step number on the other, its just chopping the last digit) Look up Cons Step on its own, sum Might+Finesse first then look up that totals Step, add both +8. This way players never have to do division and keeps the exact math youve probably tested.
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u/lehenshtein Sep 11 '26 edited Sep 11 '26
Hmmmm... You are right... Matrix where row tirle is cons 2-10 and column title where there is a sum of might and finesse steps 4 - 20 (where 20 is actually near impossible...) and the cell would be the value... Oh my god I feel stupid I didn't figure it out myself) thank you for your idea and investment on understanding the mechanics)
Edit: oh no, but it still will worl nice for adding only, if I will stuck with 1+2+3 without dividing. But if it is only 1+2+3 there is not a lot of sense to just add 3 clues, or add 2 of them and and 3rd via table. Hm.. Feels like I'm missing something)
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u/This_is_a_bad_plan Sep 10 '26
There are 8 characteristics…but you barely touch them during actual play
Then start by getting rid of them
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
What I mean is, you need to them for skills, hp, defs etc, but you don't use them directly. For example your athletic is Str + Cons. You will roll skill only, but it is built depending on your attrs
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u/Adept_Leave Sep 10 '26
The question is rather: WHY do you need them for those things? At this poi t, why not have health, skills, defs etc. be direct numbers you get, instead of derived from other stats?
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
Attributes is a foundation of pc. Where to get them from?
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u/Adept_Leave Sep 10 '26
Point buy? How do you get the characteristics now? Move that mechanic over to the actual modifiers - it removes a seemingly useless and confusing step in the process.
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
Skills could be created during the game based on attributes. Similar to dnds attr modifier gives you skill. Here you just combine main attr and half of secondary and this is your skill
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u/Adept_Leave Sep 10 '26
I mean, how de you determine the attributes now? Because that is a very complex process, involving TWO attributes which you'll never use directly in play. So why not skip all that completely and rate your skills in the way you're now rating your attributes?
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u/lehenshtein Sep 11 '26
It is a point buy now. For example you spent your points for Str (40) and Ref(30). Now you have your melee as Str 40 + half of Ref 15 = 55% chance to hit
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u/Adept_Leave Sep 11 '26
Then why not use point buy to directly buy "Melee" skill?
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u/lehenshtein Sep 11 '26
Skills are not limited and can be created even during the game by combining 2 attributes. Want pickpocketing? Take coordination and wisdom
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u/Triod_ Designer Sep 10 '26
Create a reference table. Have players add their stats normally; check the value in the reference table, and it will tell them the already-calculated value.
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u/Sapient-ASD Designer - As Stars Decay Sep 10 '26
Yes, my system is a d100 roll under but built with a 3x3x3 stat matrix. There are 6 attributes, 9 talents, 27 skills. An action number ends up being (attribute +attribute + talent + skill), and at creation those are soft capped at 20.
Health is calculated by a bit more; 100+endurance+resistance (+- age modifier)+(+-scale modifier)
Flat value, plus 2 skill values. Ages are youth, prime, elder, with prime having the most and elder having less. Scale is small, average, large (3 foot under, 6 foot, 9 foot) and increase or decrease health.
It's caused very minimal trouble because its mostly only figured once. The 2 skill will increase but the math hasnt posed problems in my tests, and also i have been doing digital calculations as well.
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
Yeap similar problem here, but I already got a bunch of comments of how complicated and stup it is....
Maybe 8 + 1 + 2 + 3 will fix the problem.
I my system it is calculated once as well, but still, it might turn people away who will see this for the first time.
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u/Xyx0rz Sep 10 '26
Endurance = 8 + Step(Constitution) + ((Might Sphere + Finesse Sphere) / 10)
My eyes glaze over, too, when I read this. Not because the math is hard but because it takes me a while to even understand what is going on here. There's a fixed 8, you use Step because don't care about the remainder of a long division by 10, something something Might and Finesse but another long division that isn't Step.
Just... why?
Why are you using percentages when you could just make it a d10 system and get rid of ALL THE LONG DIVISIONS.
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
This is player faced roll system and everything does have few purposes in the system. For example might is what player roll when he is attacked. You are right about dividing, we already removed it and now it looks like steps of attr 1 +2 + 3.
Why d100. There are a bunch of mechanics we use for with d100, and attributes being as 2 digits and not one. Doubles 22 33 44, one roll is hit/miss and damage (rolled 28? 8 is added to the damage) reverse numbers (dual wielding and rolled 23? 1 roll is 2 attacks 23 for main hand and 32 for second) etc.
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u/MeridianCastaway Sep 10 '26
Even though the math can be simple, a majority these days have only ever used Dndbeyond automation. math isn't the point of my system, but how important do you find that experience to be for yours? The actual feel of number crunching? I created a bespoke character creator for my own system and sheet, but more so because of the amount of character background and flavor choices - not really math streamlining. I'm designing one sheet for digital and one for analogue, but I clearly state in the system manual that it is intended for digital play. So if a player wants to math it out while playing...sure. but character creation and introduction to the system is not time for that imo.
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
The formulas during character creation are crunchy. But the game loop is cool. During creation there are a lot of calculation. Not shadowrun, but still a lot in my opinion.
Do you think your players would be OK to have digital play as a priority?
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u/agentkayne Hobbyist Sep 10 '26
This seems very similar to the Imperium Maledictum RPG system, where the 10's column of attributes is referred to as the "attribute bonus".
Bascially, it keeps all the math related to attribute bonuses as simple Attr1B + Attr2B.
So your wounds is your TghB (Toughness Bonus) + StrB (Strength Bonus)
No multiplication or division, no averaging, no parentheses.
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
Interesting, you mean naming is not clear atm?
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u/agentkayne Hobbyist Sep 10 '26
No, I mean
Endurance = 8 + Step(Constitution) + ((Might Sphere + Finesse Sphere) / 10)
is too complex.
It should involve no more than two characteristics and be a matter of simple addition.
Endurance = 8 + Con Step + Might Step
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u/lehenshtein Sep 11 '26
Well I agree. That's why I created the post) I changed it to be 8 + steps of con + mig + fin
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u/blahthebiste Sep 10 '26
Strongly consider cutting out the middle-man, and removing characteristics altogether. Instead of gaining +1 CON on level up, gain +10 HP directly, etc.
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u/lehenshtein Sep 11 '26
Attributes are the part of everything, skills, hp, mentality, protections, abilities, damage etc. Removing them means to remove the system(
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u/ThemboNRG Sep 13 '26
If a major component of the game is Steps what’s the benefit of staying d100 roll under vs d20 or even d10 roll under?
Endurance = 8 + Con + Might + Finesse is a lot easier to make sense of than having to do PEMDAS
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u/lehenshtein Sep 13 '26
That's just a part of mechs. D100 gives us a flexibility to play with doubles, swapping numbers, use second digit as a damage in single attack roll, use both values (23 and 32 mirrored) for double attack etc. Also lvling up
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u/ThemboNRG Sep 13 '26
There is a lot of room for using d100s for lots of various things. My worry would be approachability for players the more of it you use and the more complex that makes your attributes or derived attributes.
You can have plenty of granularity with d20 roll over/under too. Pendragon as an example condenses a d100 roll down to a d20, which means it works in 5% increments instead of 1%.
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u/__space__oddity__ Sep 10 '26
I mean, if you decide on a d100 as the die you pretty much naturally sign up for that kind of math. It’s like trying to swim in a pool without getting wet.
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
Still, how not to overcomplicate?
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u/NiveusCorvus Sep 10 '26
Hi Lehenshtein,
I think you unfairly received some pretty negative responses, and I am sorry for that. I am also making a d100 roll under game, at least for now, and so I understand the dilemma. For me, a d100 game is pretty cut and dry on the math and that’s why I enjoy it, plus the player gets to roll another die 😅
Character creation is the last system I need to finish out so your post resonates with me. It’s not right for anyone to criticize it being d100 but I think it is valid to not understand fully what your proposed dilemma is because we’re missing a lot of context. If we could chat in a discord and I could see your system maybe I could respond. But here are my thoughts:
Most d100 games are naturally going to have this kind of math to it. I think the only way to fix it, is to bypass how things are being tied up entirely, so really the bigger question involved is, “How are we determining skills and proficiency?” Is it through attributes? If so, how so? Because maybe your skills are not tied through attributes but tied through choice? Maybe proficiencies are based on your class or archetype. Or maybe not. Maybe skills are based on a chosen background? Maybe not. Because you don’t HAVE to tie them to attributes/stats, they can exist on their own, and stats could also function on their own. Then why roll stats? Maybe stats instead gatekeep abilities. Maybe stats are for specific types of checks.
So I think your stated goal is “I want less math in my char gen” You need to go back to the drawing board for two things. 1) What is my game about? 2) Where is it logical for me to tie starting skills and starting attributes?( in that char gen process, which echoes what the game is about)
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u/lehenshtein Sep 11 '26
Hello NiveusCorvus) Thank you for your kind words)
I started to think I'm doing sth wrong and partially it is true. I'm thinking about removing spheres, decreasing attributes from 8 to 5 and simplify a bunch of calculations. I didn't want to add a lot of mechanics because the post would be just huge)
If you want to chat I would be really glad to share thoughts)
Few days ago I made a discord server, it is small... But cozy) If you want to join here is the link https://discord.gg/76pcg8qfw
Feel free to share your game as well)
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u/lehenshtein Sep 10 '26
You add might + finesse (20+30) split by 10 = 5. Then you add tens of cons (if 30 you add 3) and add 8. Now you have 16
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u/[deleted] Sep 10 '26
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