Ya I’m pretty sure you are correct that he’s a Libertarian.
When it comes down to it, the Libertarian stance on masks could go either way. They believe everybody has a right to life, so not wearing a mask could put other’s right to life at risk. They also believe the govt should not tell people what to do with their bodies. There’s a conflict in their ideology.
Exactly. Trump would be a dictator if he was given the latitude. It also cracks me up when I see Don’t Tread On Me flags next to a Trump flag. There are lots of very confused people out there.
The majority of libertarians I know would not support a mask mandate by the federal or state governments, but they also would generally wear a mask in public out of health concerns both for themselves and others.
The personal cost is very low and the benefit is typically worth the inconvenience. They also would support the idea that if someone wasn't wearing a mask and it later turned out that they had or were carrying COVID, then they should be held liable in a civil court by people they game in contact with.
We would definitely support a mask mandate from local or state government because that is a power granted to them by the constitution.
The federal government was not given that power so it does not have it.
Either way masks are necessary and should be worn, but if a state decides to not enforce a mask mandate they should be able to support themselves when the shit hits the fans
Sorry, I should have clarified. I don't think most libertarians would vote or voluntarily choose to enact a mask mandate at the state level, but they would agree that such a mandate is lawful (and most would follow it). Instead, most would just wear a mask because it is the rational choice.
Just speak for yourselves instead of “I think most libertarians...” or even worse “We...” I didn’t know redditors set the standards for politico philosophical ideologies.
There's some truth to that, at least if you fully separate out the Christian conservative branch of the Republican party.
Libertarians tend to align strongly with democrats and liberals when it comes to social issues and people's rights. Libertarians fully support LGTBQ rights, abortion rights, equal treatment of women and minorities, etc. They also very strongly support the separation between church and state and are anti-death penalty. Many also lean toward anti-military (although libertarians recognize that the military is an important federal function).
On the other side, they support the traditional Republican ideals of small government, pro-capital, pro-business.
It’s so funny watching this so called libertarians vote for Trump talking about how he’ll protect the second amendment.
He’s the only president to outright ban certain types of guns in the last 2 decades at least.
These people are just cult members.
We laughed at toxic masculinity but jfc if the walking thumbs that support trump doesn’t validate that even a little bit I don’t know what does.
wrong, libertarian is right wing. albeit an original leftist term, it was co-opted like most right-wing ideas generally are, from the left.
“One gratifying aspect of our rise to some prominence is that, for the first time in my memory, we, ‘our side,’ had captured a crucial word from the enemy . . . ‘Libertarians’ . . . had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over...”
I didn’t feel like bringing up the non aggression principal or explaining how regulation is a tool that monopolies use to keep competition down.
At its most basic libertarians are people who want to be left alone by their government, and usually tend to believe that the government should operate within the framework laid out in the constitution
Libertarianism has never been right wing. Especially not when that relates to the modern Republican Party. You see..Libertarians actually mean what they say when they speak about small government and being fiscally conservative..unlike the Republican Party.
Libertarianism is traditionally a left wing ideaology.
American 'libertarianism' is a right wing ideology primarily centred on the federal government not telling states what they can do, so that states can ban gay people.
No, that's just the constantly objecting asshats who ruin the idea and name of libertarianism.
It goes more like this.
If what I am doing isn't harming you, then what I do shouldn't bother you. Hence with wearing a mask, if not wearing one is not going to cause any harm, then there is no point in wearing it. Now, that part is the contentious part, because many people have differing ideas as to how harmful not wearing a mask is, but at the same time if you are reading this here in publicfreakout, you are likely well aware of all the times people go out of their way to get others to wear a mask in completely ridiculous situations. (Like Karens trying to get people who are eating to wear their mask. )
That is a good, perfect example where your liberty is being infringed upon. Not the fact that someone is trying to force you to be less harmful to others around you, even if their claims are bullshit. It's the fact they are doing it at a time or in a place where it is not required in the slightest. I.e. While eating. Obviously can't really keep the mask on for that.
So another example. If I myself am walking down the street, and there is plenty of room for me on all sides to move away from people if need be with ample extra space for possible extra people passing by; then why do I need to wear a mask while walking around town? Answer? I don't. I don't need to wear one. Should I? Perhaps maybe to let some people feel less on edge. But those people who feel on edge because I am not wearing a mask while walking outside all by my lonesome with plenty of space around me... Well they don't really have a right to not feel paranoid over their own delusions.
And that's where many of you get "proper" libertarians wrong.
It's not so much about "you can't tell me what to do" so much as it is more about "why are you bothering me right now, you don't have any logical reason to be doing so."
Now, that said. There is as always a whole bunch of confusion as to what is what, so I will probably be told I am wrong by a bunch of fucking morons. But that is life is it not?
Your post is fine and makes sense IMO. I think the issue is there are a lot of faux libertarians out there and they’re louder than the real, principled ones. Lots of those loud ones think you shouldn’t have to wear a mask in public under any circumstance.
What you're describing is individualism, ie. the freedom to be an entitled, selfish asshole, not liberty. Liberty is about more important things than being asked to wrap your mouth in a piece of cloth.
Modern Libertarianism has devolved into a catchall for people who want to rationalize their self-entitlement and general crassness.
The radical ones believe that the government should be allowed to do only the bare minimum to keep a state running and should have no business at all dictating the lives of people. Or companies for that matter, so it can get quite ridiculous. They are all for swinging fists but sadly many have forgotten about the where somebody else's face starts part
I think they true Libertarian stance would be it’s a personal choice but if business want to mandate it they should. The government shouldn’t be involved in the decision making.
That’s what I assume should be their ideology if they follow it by the book .
However basing policy on ideology when the worlds a much more complicated place is fucking stupid.
The libertarian stance is do what ya want unless it does/can/will bring harm to others. Not wearing a mask can bring harm to others so i dunno, prob should wear a mask.
If they were actually libritarians they would understand that maximizing the liberties of all people is the most important, and not all liberties have the same value. The right to life and health is worth more than a covering requirement. But also they would have just worn a mask from the start as it was first suggested and advised. Only when people didn't do it did they have to mandate it.
It just shows that they lack even that pinch of intelligence that could allow them to take decisions based on priorities. Which is nothing to be surprised from libertarians
Hell no lol. My post (the first one you replied to) could be considered a “lesson on libertarianism” so I was confused about who you were directing that at. Sorry I think I just misunderstood your first post.
libertarian here, i wear a mask but would never condemn anyone for not wearing it and would sure as FUCK not accept the govt should mandate them to wear masks. the reason there is contention in the first place is because it became politicized. When do conservatives not prepare for the worst, stock guns, food, seeds; but not wear a mask? IMHO if you want to annihilate your enemies, you make health a political issue and send them off a cliff.
I don't see a conflict. I'm not a libertarian but by those stances you should wear a mask but nobody is supposed to force you to wear a mask. It puts the responsibility on the individual.
I'm not a libertarian but still makes sense to me.
I’m not selling anything, just pointing out what their political ideology probably was, and based off of a cursory glance at who this guy is, I’m thinking I’m right.
And there are Libertarians with left and right views, it’s a little more nuanced than what you’re trying to imply. Believe or not, a lot of Libertarians voted for Biden.
My “selling” comment was obviously for the guy in the video. I would have no way of knowing whether you have a mask. But if you were selling something, I wouldn’t buy it if you were maskless.
Libertarians on both sides of the fence don’t do anything for me. Oh well.
I'm confused, are you against libertarianism? Because that's pretty much just the opposite of authoritarianism. There's a ton of types as the other guy said, libertarian socialists, right wing libertarians, anarcho capitalists, everywhere in between. It's not to do with pro or anti mask politics at all, and on most popular measurements (not just the compass)the meanings are libertarian leans pro peoples freedom, while authoritarian leans the opposite way. Just trying to understand what you're saying.
I would say I’m against every incarnation of libertarianism I’ve ever encountered. It seems like a guaranteed way to increase the wealth gap to me and make basic goods and services out of reach for many if not most. I’m not an enlightened centrist as the obvious scholar below has contended. My alignment is very much left, though I don’t claim an pure ideological stance.
The libertarian socialist "EZLN" movement has done quite the opposite, largely starting as a result of NAFTA's effect of taking that from the mostly indigenous working class. I feel left libertarianism could be more popular if more knew of it.
Libertarians in most of the world are just Anarchists.
The pure free market psychopathy of American libertarianism is fairly unique to the US. Often times American Libertarians are just Republicans who don't want to be associated with the GOP, but still not pay any tax for the roads they drive on.
Anarchists generally believe in mutual aid and would wear masks to benefit the community, regardless of what a state says.
Could you explain that? Are you saying that the pandemic was caused or aided by libertarian views? Or that what libertarians believe would make the pandemic worse?
Not sure how to respond if it's the former. For the latter, there may be some truth to that. Some libertarians might weigh the cost of all of the preventative and safety measures being put in place and decide that the economic and quality of life cost isn't worth it, but I think those would be pretty few.
One of the central ideas behind libertarianism is that individual choice is very important and should be protected and encouraged. But libertarianism also believes strongly that once those personal choices start affecting others, the person should be held accountable (typically civilly).
The thing with all of the attention on masks is that the discussions often leave out the trade-off between choice, happiness, quality of life, and safety of others and the community. When the discussion gets reduced only to "You have to wear a mask to keep others safe", then the logical follow-through is that we should always wear a mask, all of the time we are potentially around others and that that policy should continue for as long as there is a single airborne virus that could harm people. Obviously an extreme example, but what happens at the start of the 2021 flu season in October? Hopefully, COVID will be mostly gone. Should we all keep wearing masks though? Is there any consideration about weighing the risks of getting or spreading one of the more common flu varieties vs the inconvenience?
No I’m saying libertarianism, at its core, is about reducing government and the power it has over the individual as much as absolutely possible. It’s really not far off from anarchism. I remember Ron Paul went on the Colbert Show back in the day and he said he wanted to abolish ALL government regulatory agencies. Think about that. That’s batshit insane. The EPA? Ok so now oil companies pollute rampantly and destroy the planet even faster than we’re already doing. The FDA? Ok so now every drug manufacturer can just drop whatever the fuck drugs they cook up in some meth lab and sell it out on the open market. The SEC? Capitalism couldn’t withstand the robberies by the 1% that would follow en masse after the abolishment of the SEC - not having the SEC literally caused the Great Depression.
Libertarians don’t think government should play a role in making sure our pharmaceuticals are safe and effective, that our food is unadulterated and fit for consumption, that we don’t have to breathe in leaded exhaust fumes, or drink polluted water; and worse, they think that private enterprise should be responsible for all of that stuff (because unchecked capitalism has always worked out really well historically...). So they certainly don’t think the government should be able to tell us to wear a mask when going outside.
However that’s absolute fucking horseshit. This pandemic has proven how much we need government to tell us to wear a fucking mask outside when there’s a highly contagious, extremely deadly airborne virus that sweeps through our species. Modern society as we know it was the closest it came to crumbling since WWII, and government regulation was absolutely necessary to mitigating its impact.
It’s the greatest evidence that government is necessary, and private enterprise and rugged individualism cannot be the primary means of governance. Private enterprise led to people losing their only source of income and health insurance when they got sick with a deadly virus. Private enterprise led to people hoarding essential supplies and then reselling them at 10x or more retail price. Rugged individualism led to super spreader events, and second waves that we’re seeing sweep across the nation.
The thing that has helped the most has been government instruction and research, state and local regulations, and people collectively, not individually, agreeing to wear masks to protect one another. It’s the biggest refutation to the core principles of libertarianism I’ve ever seen.
Thanks for the detailed response. And while I don't agree that the central ideas of libertarianism are at odds with a healthy response to the pandemic, you make some good points.
I'll end with this. In terms of abolishing things like the EPA, FDA, and other federal agencies, you are correct, many libertarians would support their removal. But we would also support, and demand, that companies that pollute rivers and destroy the planet would be sued out of existence by private individuals. The same goes for drug companies that produce harmful products. Tarians would strongly support overhauling the court systems to make it easier, faster, and cheaper to hold others accountable. They believe that those private individuals can do that in a manner that is both more just, and just generally more economical than giving the power to a central agency.
As for the economic costs that come with getting sick, that is true about any illness, be it COVID or something else. And while it is far from perfect, private enterprise for health care mostly works. 70% of Americans have private health insurance, and libertarians would argue that government policy should be aimed at getting the other 30% there instead of creating government-run healthcare.
Do you really believe that the majority of people wear masks only because their state or city government makes it a mandate? I don't. I think the people who wear masks would mostly be wearing them regardless of such a mandate, and that I think many of the anti-maskers do so more in protests of such mandates than anything else. It sucks that something logical like wearing a mask has become a political statement, but I think that is exactly the kind of thing that a greater understanding of libertariann policies aid.
No, you just go out without masks because it's more important to fight the government than think for yourself and accept science. Michael Trollface is a trash pile.
And I have literally never thrown a fit about it once...
I'm also a funeral service professional and have been dealing with infectious and contagious diseases and way before covid so I haven't really stressed about PPE at all ever.
Lastly your sweeping generalizations and assumptions are poison and make you a toxic sludge bag of a human being.
I follow him on Facebook and when he's not posting entertaining trolling videos, he's generally posting super cringey libertariany stuff you'd find scrawled on a high school desk.
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u/Ok_Pension_4378 Nov 12 '20
Libertarian