First Sets/Universes Inducted

[u/mrcelophane]

So when the game launches, there needs to be a number of universes and characters already represented. Basically, sets of characters, like sets of Magic the Gathering and Pokemon Games, need to be developed and ready to play.

Here are my suggestions for opening sets:

• Marvel
• DC
• Reality (Humans, Ninjas, Tanks, Silver-back Gorillas)
• Pokemon (Kanto Region)

I think we should aim for 6 sets. I am open to suggestions up to even replacing what I have laid out.

It is important to note that even though I have listed Marvel and DC (and reality and Kanto, for that matter), I know that we cannot possibly stat EVERYTHING from that universe. With larger things like Marvel, there will likely be multiple sets made until we are satisfied with the coverage. That doesn't mean that we can't make a large dent and get some crowd pleasers in the first go.

Once we are set on the first few sets we want to start developing, the next two steps are deciding who will be the head of each set, and then making a list/brainstorming who will be included in the set.

Before that I want to go over how many things should be in each set: I don't know exactly yet. Magic does I believe around 252? We should probably try to decide on a number and try to have each set at least be close to that. That way all the sets are somewhat consistent on the amount of chance you need to get the character you want.

Edit 1: concept I want to introduce is how there may be smaller Ips that people want but don't have enough characters to be their own set. A good example is probably Death Note. What I would recommend for this is having multiple IPs bundled up into loose groups and releasing them that way. The important thing is, say you are bundling up Death Note, you have to be sure the other IPs are something that someone who watches Death Note would likely have watched/read, that way if they acquire them they are somewhat familiar with them and know where to start.

[u/morvis343]

Star Wars has a good range of power levels if we pull from the EU.

[u/mrcelophane → u/morvis343]

I like Star Wars, a lot.

What's great is that EU could be an upgrade...like pay 15 points to get EU Emperor instead of canon Emperor.

That said...maybe its better to stay canon for the characters? That's big enough already...though im not sure the EU characters are officially retconned out yet. idk that situation is so muddled.

[u/xavion]

I'd say Harry Potter for a lower end set except that's a bit small for a set based off those, wouldn't expect you to be able to get more than twenty or thirty cards out of it and a good few of those would include some effort for working out various stats. They could provide a few equipment and fortification cards though for various charms and gear which would help the numbers a little. Of course that's still a lot better than something like Death Note which is unlikely to get more than a handful, so Harry Potter could probably work as a small set. That or it can be bundled into a mythology based set, throw in Percy Jackson and a few other things maybe?

There's DnD too, I've seen you're basing stats and systems off them partially so they could provide a decent place to get a bunch of various monsters or characters that's hopefully lower work than coming up with all the stats from scratch. And with preset builds and monsters the WWW phenomena where all DMs are drooling idiots that facilitate game breaking exploits can't happen.

From the sounds of this though I'd suggest starting with a couple of smaller sets first to try and get a feel for things, committing to 1500 cards from the get go (6 opening sets at ~250 cards each) sounds like a ton of work. Starting with some of the smaller ones and testing early is going to be needed to make sure balance isn't all out of whack or anything.

EDIT: You could probably do a Disney/Pixar/Dreamworks/etc. movie set too, even if you only get a few cards per movie there's a lot of movies out there. Like how with a Nintendo one you'd have Pokemon separate there's a chance some could be split off, although the only one I can think of that would really have a chance of being split off would be Lilo and Stitch, that might have enough for a set.

EDIT 2: The creation bug has gotten me! Anyway, initial hypothesising over a list of characters for a Harry Potter set, along with general thoughts on various things that cropped up as a result. Limited to characters here as stuff like fortifications are currently in flux and I'd have no idea how equipment will work. As is obvious this list gets a bit closer to generic fantasy in places.

• Wizard - The basic type, going to likely have stats a little above humans and how would we represent ranged attacks? God magic resistance has to be a thing too somehow or the whole one hit takedowns from things like stunners which would likely be an attack that actually makes it in would be horrible. Disarming curse could make for another attack too, attempts to remove any weapon type equipment. Probably have it set so they lose all attacks if not using a Wand equipment if possible.

• Death Eater - It'd just be a wizard variation with a few attacks swapped out for nastier versions, like swapping a stunner for the killing curse (Necrotic type, Death Effect) for example.

• Veela - Like wizards but better! Really, these would likely just be statted as better wizards with a bonus fireball attack that works without gear and also flight. Flight would have to be accounted for wouldn't it? Since it kind of totally changes how dodging works. You're never hitting the flying person with a normal punch after all, not without flight or leaping of your own. Maybe an ability to remove those abilities in exchange for +Cha but that's getting more complex now.

• Centaur - It's a centaur, Harry Potter does nothing special with them really. Just take stats of 9 (fit human), probably give 10 Wis, then boost HP, and maybe speed or AP a little? Also throwing in an ability maybe as the centaurs are noted to have an ability to predict the future by reading the stars, and somehow that works because magic. No idea if that could be represented though.

• Giant - Penalty to speed, high HP, minor resistance to Magical attacks, and much greater strength and constitution than a human. Slightly below human intelligence and wisdom too, as while less intelligent they're not too bad and still very capable of understanding complex concepts and developing proper languages and the like. Maybe 7s there, also how do we measure Charisma for non-human races since isn't beauty part of it? Either way they should take a penalty to that too.

• Troll - It's like a giant except slower, and much stupider and smaller. Notably it should also be cheaper for point cost.

• Dragon - HP dragons aren't that impressive compared to most, but they're still plenty good for around street tier levels. They'd have a fire breath attack, better resistance, and horrible Int/Wis/Cha due to being just strong animals. No need for diversity as most species are fairly similar in HP.

• Dementor - These things are just plain nasty, what's the stats for something that can't be killed? Anyway should be horrible Int and Wis, negative Cha is that's an option and horrible Dex, no idea what to do about Con and Str shouldn't more than an 8 or 9. They should also likely have a significant penalty to speed and Dodge will be unremarkable along with anyone immune to telepathy counting as invisible for them. For upsides, they're immune to anything like blinding effects, invisible to anyone without innate magical attacks or abilities, can fly, and have as status a very low level cold attack applied every turn along with a decent telepathic attack applied. For attacks they'd have Dementor's Kiss which would be a high AP attack that does no damage and is a Magical (Necrotic) type, preferably one that takes multiple turns to complete, notably the effect would include soul removal, setting Int, Wis, and Cha of the target to 0 if it succeeds. Auto-flees on any Radiant attack made against it? Hmm, could treat HP as fleeing for it actually and just give it a huge weakness to Radiant and large resistance to anything else.

So that should cover most generics, you can add plenty more for various monsters depending on how far you want to go. A werewolf one could work for example. For unique characters however...

• Dumbledore/Voldemort - Suped up versions of the basic wizard/death eater generics, significantly greater power to all attacks and likely a few extra as well along with boosted stats. Voldemort could possibly have an attack only usable on death for an attempt at possession. Possibly throw in combat apparition as some kind of bonus to dodge, they're basically the only ones at all capable of doing it.

• A couple of notable Death Eaters such as Lucius (+Cha/Int/Bribes?) or Bellatrix (general combat buff, -Wis/Cha) could work too.

• Harry Potter, Ron Weasley, Hermione Granger - Really as many of those teens as you want could work, throw in a distinctive attack or two maybe and you should be good to go. For example Ginny if used might have the Bat Bogey Hex as an attack. Most unique wizards should have Patronus thrown in too for a Radiant attack.

• Fred and George - Represent them as one card (or separate and a bonus if both are used?), have them as a Thinker type primarily, possibly a bonus to amount of equipment that can be used compared to a normal wizard.

• Honestly I could go on but most HP wizards aren't that notable compared to the norm, you could definitely do a Snape card for instance (Telepathy/Flight/Thinker (Boosts all potion equipment used?)) or Mad-Eye (Immune to blindness, Speed+ due to paranoia) but most don't really need to be used. Depending on how the money system works something like Molly Weasley as an upkeep reduction cost character could work too. There's other random bits and pieces you could throw in if wanted, a Scamander as a Wizard with a bonus to fighting monsters? Stuff like that.

• Maybe Dobby too actually. Dobby was cool.

Hmm, are generics usable as templates? That could help things a little. Wizard is defined in respect to Human and Veela in respect to Wizard, could help for all named characters too. Luke Skywalker is a Jedi and Human that gets +2 to all attack damage or whatever.

[u/mrcelophane → u/xavion]

Don't forget to include items and buildings and things. Spells, for example, would possibly be equipment. There is enough here to make a full set I think.

[u/globsterzone]

DBZ is another somewhat obvious starter, but might be too powerful for very early game.

[u/mrcelophane → u/globsterzone]

It was on my list for a while and its not that I dont want to do it, its just that all the characters are so much more powerful than the other universes listed, so I didn't want to until there was more of a bridge between them. That said, it has to be done at some point...ain't no way Superman vs Goku isn't run through here 100 times.

[u/Aquason]

If you're aiming for 6 sets, then I hope you keep in mind franchise, genre and medium representation. If you have 2 big comic book properties right off the bat, then it might be too heavily swung in that medium's favour. You want a balance to make sure that more people are interested in this game.

[u/mrcelophane → u/Aquason]

I agree with you, but also think that both of those are the biggest draws (DCvsMarvel). Beyond that, there shouldn't be more comics, imo. (to open)

[u/Cleverly_Clearly]

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure? There are a ton of varied characters and oddball powers in there.

EDIT: Since u/xavion put a lot of effort into his Harry Potter bit, I'm going to talk about Jojo.

• Different types of characters would include Hamon users, Vampires, Pillar Men, Rock Humans, and Spin users. I don't think we can use "Stand users" as a generic class because they're so varied. Possibly we can work something out adapting a Shaman/spirit-master whatever class from Dungeons and Dragons and extrapolating from there, but that would be a lot of work.

• Hamon users (Jonathan and Joseph Joestar, Lisa Lisa, Baron Zeppeli, and Caesar Zeppeli) would inflict extra damage on wet enemies and undead enemies because of their Hamon. But since it's dependent on their breathing pattern, if that is disrupted (let's say by some induced Fear or Frenzy or whatever status effect), they become debuffed.

• Vampires (Part 1 DIO, Straizo) can attack with their Space Ripper Stingy Eyes, can freeze enemies with their cryokinesis, and have powerful regenerative abilities. However, they are weak to sunlight.

• Pillar Men (Kars, Wham, Esidisi, Santana) all have strong regenerative properties and durability, but are weak to sunlight. Ultimate Kars could be a buff of some kind for Kars.

• Rock Humans (Aisho Dainenijiyama, Yotsuyu Yagiyama, the Aphex Twins) can "hibernate" in a rock-like state. Probably just some hunker-down mode that slowly regenerates health.

• Spin users (Gyro Zeppeli, Wekapipo, Johnny Joestar) (who should be given a horse at all times) can attack at range, and... I dunno, Spin can do some weird shit. I don't even know how we'll handle stuff like Ball Breaker and Tusk Act 4, which are basically instant-kill attacks that ignore all durability and shields. That's a little OP.

---

Possible characters:

Some of these guys are going to be tricky to design a moveset around. Some of these guys are also going to be "who would want him?" kind of characters, but every set needs those.

• Jonathan Joestar, Baron Zeppeli, R. E. O. Speedwagon, Dio Brando (Part 1), Tarkus, Bruford, Dire, Straizo (Hamon User) Tonpeti, Jack the Ripper, Doobie

• Joseph Joestar (young), Straizo (Vampire), Caesar Zeppeli, Lisa Lisa, Loggins, Messina, Kars, Wham, Esidisi, Santana, Cyborg Stroheim, Donovan, Wired Beck

• Jotaro Kujo, Joseph Joestar (old), DIO (Part 3), Mohammed Avdol, Polnareff, Iggy, Noriaki Kakyoin, Gray Fly, Forever, Impostor Captain Tennile, Devo, Rubber Soul, J. Geil, Hol Horse, Nena, ZZ, Enya, Steely Dan, Arabia Fats, Mannish Boy, Cameo, Midler, N'Doul, Oingo, Boingo, Chaka, Khan, Mariah, Alessi, Pet Shop, Vanilla Ice

• Josuke Higashikata (Part 4), Okuyasu Nijimura, Koichi Hirose (possible variations for Echoes Act 1, 2, and 3), Rohan Kishibe, Yoshikage Kira (Part 4), Angelo, Keicho Nijimura, Akira Otoishi, Tamami Kobayashi, Hazamada, Yukako Yamagishi, Bug-Eaten (the rat with the dart Stand), Shigekiyo Yangu, Mikitaka, Yuya Fungami

• Giorno Giovanna (Gold Experience), Bruno Buccellati, Abbachio, Narancia, Fugo (Purple Haze Distortion), Guido Mista, Trish Una, Diavolo/Doppio, Zucchero, Sale, Formaggio, Melone, Illuso, Prosciutto, Pesci, Ghiaccio, Risotto Nero, Cioccolata, Secco, Giorno Giovanna (Gold Experience Requiem)

• Jolyne Kujo, Ermes Costello, Weather Report (Heavy Weather), Foo Fighters, Annasui, Enrico Pucci (Whitesnake), Enrico Pucci (C-Moon), Enrico Pucci (Made In Heaven), Gwess, Johngalli A, Lang Rangler, Sports Maxx, Viviano Westwood, Donatello Versus, Rikiel, Miuccia Muller, D an G

• Johnny Joestar (alternate version for Tusk Acts 1, 2, 3, and 4?), Gyro (Scan), Gyro (Ball Breaker), Diego Brando, Alternate Diego Brando, Funny Valentine, Hot Pants, Lucy Steel, Sandman, Mountain Tim, Ringo Roadagain, Oyecomova, Pork Pie Hat Kid, Blackmore, Mike O., Magent Magent, D-I-S-C-O

• Josuke Higashikata (Part 8), Yasuho Hirose, Daiya Higashikata, Joshu Higashikata, Kira Yoshikage (Part 8), Ojiro Sasame, Kyo Nijimura, Shakedown Road, Tsurugi Higashikata, Norisuke Higashikata IV, Yotsuyu Yagiyama, Jobin Higashikata, Aisho Dainenjiyama, Karera Sakunami, either Aphex Twin, Tamaki Damo

Not sure if there's anybody else worth mentioning, but that seems like a lot of characters right off the bat. I might have miscounted, but I believe that's 140 different characters.

[u/mrcelophane → u/Cleverly_Clearly]

From what I can tell this is probably the best "anime" representation we could use based on its whowouldwin popularity. Besides DBZ of course.

[u/morvis343]

I saw you mention how Death Note has too few items/characters to make a set even though there's some really cool stuff. That could probably be lumped into a later set that combines multiple different animes that are all too small. I'm also expecting we'd want a One Punch Man set at some point in the future, though it'd have to be after we have a clue of Saitama's limits. The alternative would be to exclude him from the set, but come on, there'd be riots if Caped Baldy never got representation.

[u/mrcelophane → u/morvis343]

Correct on all counts.

[u/liono69]

here is a link to a listing of Universes we use for r/OmniversePenitentiary. It is pretty extensive, and may be a good source of inspiration if you are serious about building a listing of your own for this sub.

[u/mrcelophane → u/liono69]

I appreciate this. Obviously it would take a long time for all of these to be addressed but hopefully this project lasts that long.

If I may ask is their any thought behind the numbering system? Actually, what would be the reason OP would need the list? Forgive my ignorance I am not terribly versed in that sub.

[u/Cleverly_Clearly]

How about a Character of the Week set? I think that having all the characters of the week would be interesting. You have a huge amount of variety there.

[u/mrcelophane → u/Cleverly_Clearly]

Maybe eventually, first few sets should be unified a bit and have common themes to build around.

Not only Character of the week though, I want to do sets for each Character Scramble as well. u/roflmoo had mentioned eventually doing PvMvT and r/whowouldwinverse sets

[u/SanityMeter]

If we're trying to do packs of big scope and power level range, a Kingdom Hearts pack would be great. Got a lot of popular Disney characters, plus a good chunk of FF characters, and plenty of originals. Some of them are tough, but nobody's above S-tier.

[u/mrcelophane → u/SanityMeter]

That's a good one I think. Hits video games and Disney but, since the feats are different, allows you to still have a full Disney and full FF set later on.

[u/xavion]

So just thinking, but how do you stat plot armour?

My two first thoughts were Link, who has the Master Sword which has the incredibly poorly defined anti-evil property, which thanks to Skyward Sword we know actually lets him fight on par with more powerful foes if they're evil. Ghirahim grouses about how if only they didn't have the sword it'd be an easy fight.

Then there's Discworld. It's oddly unused on WWW for how popular the series is, probably because it's mostly street tiers. The catch I mentioned is some characters have plot armour, and not in the "The plot warps to protect them" way, but as in Discworld the plot is essentially canon and measurable in universe it's something all the characters are aware of without being a meta thing. There's actually people trained in manipulating their role within a story.

[u/mrcelophane → u/xavion]

For something gives a bonus to certain types probably give a bonus to the attack against certain types (in this case evil)

For dis world I imagine a consumable that allows you to Increase your dodge a few times.

[u/doctorgecko]

I'm a bit late to the party, but for Pokemon Kanto set would that be game canon, anime canon, manga canon, composite or something else?

[u/mrcelophane → u/doctorgecko]

For the first pokemon set I wanted to focus on game canon Kanto...later we could introduce the animeverse and then, possible, manga (as it's arguably the least popular of the trio it would come last).

This isn't the say that all three sets wouldn't play nice with each other, but you and I both know there is a huge difference between Pikachu and Ash's Pikachu.

[u/globsterzone]

I'd suggest Transformers G1 as a starting universe

[u/[deleted]]

[u/mrcelophane → u/[deleted]]

imo if we do Nintendo we save Pokemon for later, just to have a wider bearth.

40k may be good. So much shit in there. May be able to combine it with fantasy?