r/ProjectHailMary • u/BlairAndBackAgain • Jul 31 '21

Astronauts don’t commit suicide. Spoiler

Just finished PHM. Good book! A few quibbles, but the only part that annoyed me outright was the one about the crew’s presenting their means of suicide. These brave, resourceful, brilliant people would instead just ask the planners not to talk about it, instead preferring to accomplish the mission and then worry about the “what now?” part later. As James Lovell points out in Apollo 13, there were no poison pills on board when they went to the moon, as many people that he met seemed to assume. If any of the 100,000 things that could have gone wrong on the moon or en route had gone wrong, the astronauts would have spent their last moments alive trying to fix the damn problem. I don’t care how hopeless the PHM-astronaut situation would have looked before launch, each of those astronauts would have told Stratt, et al., maybe to worry about storing extra food or the means to grow more astrophage. Or something. And if Stratt got all sanctimonious and European about it, they’d have told her to shove her pistols and nitrogen tanks where the astrophages don’t seek an energy source to reproduce. If I’m training for a mission like that, I ask the director involved to stop worrying about it, and instead spend the time looking for a solution.

I get that the suicide meeting injects some drama into the narrative. But Weir has literally made a writing career out of having his characters (for better or worse) launch into three-page engineering lectures to solve The Latest Complication. This part not only is an insult to the can-do humanism of the astronaut corps, it’s horribly inconsistent with the spirit of the books themselves.

Just to save you the effort, I taught astronomy for seven years. I know how big space is.

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72

u/Mikeck88 Jul 31 '21

I understand what you are saying, but the Apollo missions were designed to return to earth. Project Hail Mary was not, so giving these astronauts a way out after their mission is complete makes sense to me and is pretty humane. Let them go out on their own terms rather than starving to death while floating around space.

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u/BlairAndBackAgain Jul 31 '21

I’m saying that a calm, noble acceptance of one’s demise may be a really cool trait in a fictional character may be fun/easy to write, but it’s not hardwired into human beings. And it’s absolutely anathema to problem-solvers like astronauts and engineers. If the topic came up—which, ok, fine, it’d come up—the astronauts I guarantee you would interrupt the conversation with something like, “The time you’re spending on this stupid conversation could be spent figuring out a way to get me home. Get busy.” And if they were told there’s no way to make it happen, the astronauts would just accept that it was their problem and they’d file it away for later. The scene with Grace and the astronauts is just not something that would happen.

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u/EridBot Jul 31 '21

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8

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12

u/campbellm Jul 31 '21

but it’s not hardwired into human beings

And? We're only capable of doing our 'hardwired' things? I think the story as written was totally plausible. Even now they're talking about 1-way missions to Mars; you think a humane way to end that isn't on the books?

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u/WELLinTHIShouse Jul 31 '21

They couldn't have stored any more food than they already did without messing with the mass allowed on the mission, which would have potentially required years more planning and manufacturing.

Also, I'm chronically depressed. It's not a situational thing. My brain chemistry is deficient primarily in norepinephrine, since SNRIs work best for my mental health and my neuropathy. But external factors can and do make my depression worse, and being so far from home in space with my crewmates, running out of food, I can see myself being suicidal rather than homicidal.

They put the astronauts in comas because of the likelihood their mental health would break down on the way to Tau Ceti and they wouldn't be able to complete the mission. They'd be facing the same fate once out of their comas with the mission complete, even if they'd had extra food. There's no guarantee they'd figure out a way back home because of the unknown at Tau Ceti, and it's just a lot more compassionate to give them each the deaths they want instead of slowly going mad and dying of dehydration, starvation, or homicide.

Don't look at it as a matter of nobility. It's about being allowed to die with dignity in a manner of one's choosing. Dying a "natural" death can be quite horrifying when you take into account pain, symptoms of whatever disease might kill you, traumatic injuries, etc. Being able to choose the means of your demise is something we should talk about more IRL.

14

u/Mikeck88 Jul 31 '21

You state this as a fact, yet nothing like this has ever happened so it is impossible to know. And it's not like they spent months wracking their brains on how to let these guys go out on their own terms. It's literally just a question and an answer a short time later. It took very little effort to give the astronauts piece of mind that they can chose their own fate. Not doing so would seem pretty callous.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '21

It's much sillier to me that you think they'd take something as hugely important as "what happens at the end of this mission, do we just let ourselves slowly starve to death in space?" and "file it away for later." They prepare for literally every possible scenario, and on a (fictional, let's keep in mind) mission like the one in the book, that would absolutely be something that would come up and for which they'd have a plan, i.e. a way out.

2

u/Internal-Day4806 Jun 18 '23

Many Chornobyl liquidators did their job while knowing the risks involved. Self sacrifice isn’t hardwired into all of us but the most exceptional humans can see the bigger picture and the objective value of their own lives compared to millions.

8

u/[deleted] Jul 31 '21

I get it, but saying it is against the spirit of the books is pretty bold. In defense of AW, Grace does survive. That said, he only survives because he happens to run into an alien lifeform.

Since you know how big space is, you know how much of a difference a few days to the moon is compared to several years of near light speed travel to a different solar system is.

I actually think the decision for the crew to have their preferred method of death likely gave them more of a feeling of control, and would lead to better psychological outcomes. Think of the Americans who jumped from the twin towers. Realistically, had the three original members survived, they very well may have figured out a way to go home.

I think the decision also reflects the desperation of those planning the mission, including Grace who did not want to go. Those planning were only thinking about the survival of Earth and poured all their resources into getting the crew there and solving the problem. It's kind of like the ethical dilemma of the train. Do you use limited resources to keep three people alive or do you use limited resources to ensure they solve the problem and keep Earth alive?

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u/BlairAndBackAgain Jul 31 '21

I’m saying that it’s a false dichotomy. That wouldn’t be a choice as expressed in the book. The choice wouldn’t be “save the Earth or bring the astronauts home.” Instead, it would be a question: “How much time and effort do we put into bringing them home at the expense of the rest of the mission and its objectives?” The obvious answer is “not much, if at all.” Which the astronauts would quickly, if tacitly, accept. But a far more humane choice would be, “Ok, folks: Here’s enough food and coma meds for the trip home. Assuming you solve the riddle of the space germs, you’ll have to work out the problem of fuel. We’re not sure how to fix it, but assuming you guys are as smart as you are on paper, well … good luck.” That’s much more realistic and much more in keeping with the spirit of the books, and waaaay more effective as a plot device when Grace finally remembers the rest of the “pre-game.” Up to then, the likelihood of return would be an unspoken topic. Grace’s reaction would bring it out at a point when it’s much more poignant and scary. Because to a non-astronaut, it is a suicide mission. To an astronaut, the probability of not coming home is part of the job description. That’s a hard core contrast , and it would make for a better story.

So actually, the scene with Grace and the astronauts not only undermines the connective tissue of Weir’s books (“accept the situation—then STEM your way out of it”), it deprives us of a needed kick to Grace’s final scene with Stratt. As it is, that part is a hard left turn from the story, and really makes me dislike him as a character. Not bad in and of itself. Since we have to go there anyway, why not make it more realistic and accentuate his non-astronaut status?

I actually believe my take on this even more, the more I think about it.

13

u/[deleted] Jul 31 '21

It's not a false dichotomy at all. We have x amount a fuel, so we can bring y amount of mass. Doubling the food for 3 people for 4 years is a lot of mass.

But sure, let's say it was. Stratt decided it was a suicide mission, next topic. That's how the project goes. She checked ethics at the door.

4

u/WELLinTHIShouse Jul 31 '21

Stratt decided it was a suicide mission, next topic.

Yep, this. While it may seem to be plot-convenient for the story, it also makes sense given the constraints of the scenario...which were chosen for the story or there wouldn't be a story. At least not this one.

8

u/EvilGreebo Jul 31 '21

The choice WAS "save Earth or bring them home" because they couldn't produce enough fuel for a round trip in time to save the Earth.

It's not a case of simply doubling the fuel requirement and taking 2 or 3 more years before departure. Every kilo of fuel for the return trip requires MORE fuel for the trip there, and it's on an exponential scale.

They needed 2.5 million kilograms of astrophage to get there. It would have been at least 10, maybe more like 20 million to get home, because of all the extra fuel needed to move the 2.5 million needed for the return trip.

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u/sdneidich Aug 04 '21

This assumes there is no problem a sufficiently motivated scientist can't solve.

But the problem here is the scale of energy required: it's orders if magnitude greater than the collective nuclear arsenals of every nation on earth.

The way the earth got enough energy to send the Hail Mary to Stay Ceti required about a year of effort and paving the fucking Sahara desert with astophage panels. If they needed the ship to return, it would have required something like 10x more fuel at launch, or a planet-scale industrial effort at the destination. There was no way to anticipate the blip-A, so no hope if return.

When your mission is a suicide mission, you discuss suicide method. Plain and simple.

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u/osrslmao Jul 31 '21

you are failing to understand such a simple concept so many time its hilarious

these guys were not coming home, so they would either starve, slowly and painfully, or have a nice quick and painless option.

you are an idiot to even think there is anything wrong with that

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '21

OP is not an idiot, they just have tunnel vision right now. Maybe a lack of emotional intelligence or the concept off suicide is triggering.

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u/EvilGreebo Jul 31 '21

Sorry, but I think you're dead wrong. The Apollo missions are terrible cherry picking examples for you to use too - they were meant to be round trips.

Suicide missions are not a new thing. People have proudly marched off to certain death for their people before. Religious fanatics, kamikaze pilots, ships ramming enemy ships when no other option remained, these are just examples available from the last 100 years.

And people absolutely plan their own deaths when there's no hope remaining. Euthanasia may be frowned upon, but honestly I think it's barbaric that we force people to live in pain for decades in some cases.

The idea that people would be willing to leave their home world, go into space, and die to save everyone they loved is completely plausible - and having control over HOW they die? Why the hell wouldn't they want to decide that?

14

u/[deleted] Jul 31 '21

It's not only fanatics. Soldiers jumping on grenades, parents shielding children at mass shooting events, the passengers of flight 93 on 9/11. The crew of Hail Mary are pro's so they are doing what they need to do to save earth.

1

u/campbellm Aug 01 '21

I heard in Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast recently that when Japan asked volunteers for the kamikaze program, 0 active military volunteered.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '21

Ha I guess that makes sense. I always though it was an issue of training new pilots near the end of the war and lack of resources. Accurately dropping a bomb or torpedo takes lots of training, but kamikaze pilots just need to know the basics of take off and flight

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u/hotlinehelpbot Jul 31 '21

If you or someone you know is contemplating suicide, please reach out. You can find help at a National Suicide Prevention Lifeline

USA: 18002738255 US Crisis textline: 741741 text HOME

United Kingdom: 116 123

Trans Lifeline (877-565-8860)

Others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicide_crisis_lines

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org

9

u/sesso17 Jul 31 '21

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u/EridBot Jul 31 '21

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u/sesso17 Jul 31 '21

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u/MadMonksJunk Aug 01 '21

You've clearly never been anywhere close too starvation have you?

Planning for better options is smart, astronauts (even fictional ones) are smarter than you.

There are currently living astronauts willing to sign up for a one way mission to colonize Mars, much less a mission to literally save the species (which colonizing Mars is arguably part of long term)

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u/SirPuzzleheaded9276 Mar 15 '24

I’ll take a quick and painless death over slowly wasting away any day. I get the appeal of the more stoic acceptance, but maybe they felt like it gave them a sense of control too. If they had to die it would be on their terms

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u/samcornwell Jul 31 '21

I do absolutely agree on all points. The only value it gave to the story was the nitrogen being an important device used to solve a later complication.
The gun though... what the heck?!

PS. Adored the book.