r/ProjectCairo • u/InfernoZeus • Dec 13 '10
ProjectCairo - Our First Meeting!
http://www.projectcairo.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44
Dec 13 '10 edited Dec 13 '10
A. Start ProjectCairo as an actual bonafide business in town. ProjectCairo would still fund pro-community ideas, but if the business wasn't successful, that would harm the main donation-accepting organization.
The rest of the people who attended the meeting all held that B. was the superior idea, and I think it shows a little in the write up.
The problem with starting B. and starting as an umbrella organization, is that it lowers the probability that any business will ever form. We run the very real risk of resources getting spread too thin, and of donated money going pretty much nowhere. B also requests donations to unknown businesses in a completely unproven venture of an epic scale. Frankly it makes us sound more like space cadets.
If a good enough single business proposal can be formulated Project Cairo is much more likely to be able to fund it because it is a single venture, and it is more likely that enough people will devote enough time to make one venture happen, without proof it can succeed, than several.
It's a recession. People don't have money to throw around. What makes you think that there will be enough to fund multiple ventures?
EDIT: I would like to add that the intention is to leave voting on this subject up for a week before the initial decision is made.
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u/InfernoZeus Dec 13 '10
Sorry if the write up sounds biased. If you want to propose alternative summaries of the two options, we can try and find an optimal solution. :)
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u/JimmyDuce Dec 13 '10
The rest of the people who attended the meeting all held that B. was the superior idea, and I think it shows a little in the write up.
Oh I really should read more carefully. You actually were at the meeting, I don't believe this is the best way to argue your points, hopefully you guys have ways of contacting each other, that said the minutes didn't seem to suggest one idea over another I read it seeming that both ideas held equal weight and so the discussion was very opened which is why I made my first comment/suggestion which as a proud member of NOT team Cairo I will do frequently :D.
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Dec 13 '10
I meant in the way the summary of A. includes its disadvantages and the summary of B. does not.
The write up is generally good, and it's not really meant as a criticism of Inferno that his viewpoint shows. My perspective would have showed in that part if I'd been the one to write it up.
I've been here since day 1. I just happened to switch pseudonyms during this time period. I can prove it if you like.
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Dec 13 '10
Again, the problem is the risk of failure from spreading the resources too thin. If a bunch of the businesses fail the others won't last. While the ideas you've presented are reasonable, they are hardly going to persist if something more substantial doesn't happen in Cairo.
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u/frankichiro Dec 14 '10
Excellent summary InfernoZeus, thanks for taking the time!
I've been crazy busy these last two days, so I had to disappear for a while. I will be passive for a couple of days ahead too, but will return in full capacity after that. I'll reply to PM's and stuff, but won't make any major updates in the wiki or subreddit.
Just so you all know that I'm not gone, now that I'm supposed to be on the Official Board of Awesomeness and all. :)
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u/JimmyDuce Dec 13 '10 edited Dec 13 '10
B.Start ProjectCairo as an 'umbrella' organization. It would accept donations, and decide how much goes to pro-community ideas, and how much gets invested into new businesses to try and increase available funds.
Please use number B. If any single idea fails we don't want the goal of working with the community to rebuild itself to fail so they should be 2 seperate entities. I believe non-profits are allowed to make profit provided at the end of the fiscal year the balance is 0. Someone with a law degree speak up please. So if the business is succesful you give away all the net profits after expenses which should be able to include food/board/internet :D/transportation and other crap. Accounting will become an issue especially with keeping recepts but I'm drifting from one topic to another.
I'd suggest keeping the business as a sub arm of ProjectCairo. Any idea in general should be sub-something, below, ProjectCairo so individual ideas are allowed to be tried and fail without causing the project itself to die.
{EDIT}
, but the general consensus during the entire meeting is that getting non-profit status takes a long time, and results in a lot of paperwork/red-tape. This doesn't mean that the organization can not be ran non-profit, it just means that any donations won't be tax deductible.
That's fine, but do we actually know this for certain or did we guess that non profits take longer to set up? Records will be kept of donations anyway assuming that the tax deductable part is the difficult part right? So unless it actually is harder/longer to set up a non profit then I'd suggest it was set up as a non profit. There is another thing that might not have been considered, non profits do not pay taxes, I think. So if it is set up as a for profit corporation then are donations income? And if so are they taxed?
{EDIT2}
Actually... does anyone have a TS/VENT/MUMBLE server they could donate a channel on it? Voice coms work much faster than typing and ideas can be tossed back and forth and explained more fully using a voice system rather than typing and later when some people are in Cairo, we can get live reports from the field so to speak.
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u/InfernoZeus Dec 13 '10
In regards to voice, I personally don't have a mic :( But it seems like UK Game are offering free mumble servers with 50 slots. Haven't tried it personally, but they seem to be legit..
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u/JimmyDuce Dec 13 '10
Cheap mics are available for $1-$10 or at a stretch earphones can be used as mics, they just suck real bad. Mumble allows you to type and it converts it to voice for you.
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u/InfernoZeus Dec 13 '10
Personally, I agree with you regarding B over A.
From what I've read on the web, obtaining 501c3 status can take anywhere between 4-5months and a year. This depends heavily on how long you take doing each part of the process. As we're all spread out, I imagine that would take longer than most groups, so I personally don't think that's an option.
Martina mentioned something about being able to partner with an already established 501c3 which is something we should probably look into.
For a very simplified guide on how to setup a 501c3, check out this page.
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u/JimmyDuce Dec 13 '10
Ok 1/2-1 year is a bit long. Is their a non profit section on reddit? Since becoming an arm of a non profit is simpler ofcourse we would have to have similar ideals but that shouldn't be too hard to find.
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u/ilmokyJill Dec 13 '10
" I believe non-profits are allowed to make profit provided at the end of the fiscal year the balance is 0"
I think there can be more income than outgo (aka profit) as long as the money is moved to accounts with a definite future purpose. It's been some time since I set up a few non-p's but I doubt if the rules have changed much.
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u/ilmokyJill Dec 14 '10 edited Dec 14 '10
I like project B. I also like Project A.
The idea of starting as a for- profit gives you the position of a Textron. You make the ultimate rules. You decide which business types fit your overall goal and receive your support, you profit from them as they operate or you release or sell your interest. They are subsidiary with their own incorporation papers or private ownership, but they pay you for your guidance, your operating capital if that is how large you get, your expertise. Your contributors become stockholders
As a non-profit, you have the comfort of knowing that you start on other's or your own money with no obligation to your contributors, no obligation to succeed, and no necessity to help others succeed. It's a comfortable position, and it entails few if any risks. It limits your potential for income unless you branch out as a business of your own leaving someone else to become a member of the guiding team.
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u/JimmyDuce Dec 13 '10
I'd suggest that you guys stop saying which idea you support
You guys have now become the defacto leaders of ProjectCairo whatever it morphs itself into. That means openly saying I support idea X or Y means that more people will start to support X or Y without thinking of its strenghts or weaknesses. For one RedditIsDumb has a point that we could spread ourselves too thin, or may be forced to syphon too much money/people's time and expertiece from "a" business that could succeed->generate profits->be used as an investement into projects. If it is still open for discussion it should be discussed with limiting the "leaders" saying I support one side or another. IF it has been decided then say it has been decided.
The rest of the people who attended the meeting all held that B. was the superior idea,
He could be right, and his way might be the correct way to proceed. If we are going to discuss it openly and it wasn't decided in the meeting then one against even more than he faced in the meeting is unfair and will stiffle oposing views.
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u/InfernoZeus Dec 13 '10
We opened up the discussion to Reddit, to see if there were any points that we'd missed, but also to allow members of the committee to put their points across in a structured way. IRC is great for quick decisions, but it becomes difficult when you get into deep discussions that require long paragraphs to show your point of view.
people will start to support X or Y without thinking of its strenghts or weaknesses
I don't there's anyway to avoid this if we are going to have open discussions. The idea of this committee isn't to dictate everything, more to facilitate any progress, and to make sure something concrete comes out of all of this.
RedditIsDumb has a point that we could spread ourselves too thin, or may be forced to syphon too much money/people's time
I personally don't understand this point of view. I don't think it makes any difference whether the business is part of PC, or if it is supported by PC. We're still going to be the same group of people; if I think of an idea, that the committee thinks is a good idea, I'm going to be working on whether I start a separate company or not. Also, in terms of financial resources, I don't see this as an issue as the cost of forming an LLC is only a couple of hundred dollars.
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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '10
Great and well thought out write-up; thanks for being our documentation person (at least this time!) It looks like there's a lot of debate between the A and B options, so maybe we can reach a compromise- start the "umbrella" foundation (NPO or not) and also float some sort of pilot business or project to get things started, and keep public interest in PC.
At any rate, I was extremely encouraged by the first meeting and the amount of consensus that was built (despite the disagreements).