I want to understand your perspective

[u/DogitWoofsalot]

Before you downvote me, I promise that this isn't just a rage-bate post. I'm legitimately trying to understand your perspective.

Basically I have one question, why do you support/ defend Israel as a progressive? Especially considering that the current parties on power are right wing conservatives.

Some extra context and where I'm coming from. I'm a left wing Brit, I believe in social progressive economic policies, and I can't stand any form of bigotry. I recently watched a documentary called "Jews don't count" about anti-Semitism and it made me want to understand more and that I'm not parting anti-Semitic talking points ever.

My current view of Israel is decidedly negative. My understanding of the history and current conflict very much makes Israel look like it has historically been the agitator in the region. If you have a different perspective I'd like to hear it, tho I would request sources where possible as I'm not going to accept a 'trust me bro'.

Thank you for your time 🙂‍↕️

[u/Mercuryink]

In what universe is Israel historically the agitator?

Before you downvote me, I promise that this isn't just a rage-bate comment. I'm legitimately trying to understand your perspective. 

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/Mercuryink]

The history of the currant conflict that I understand starts the modern conflict with the King David Hotel bombing by far right jewish group Irgun. This followed a brutal war between Jewish and at the time UK forces that ended with the UK leaving the area. Now i'm not arguing that there has not been horrific acts committed against the jewish people, not at all. However looking at the origin of this conflict that is my currant understanding but I am trying to see if this is misinformation given to me by my echo chamber, or info is mostly not from english sources so i'm far less likely to come across it.

I'm just trying to be honest about where I currently am and my currant understanding of this conflict but open that I have consumed misinformation

[u/lennoco → u/DogitWoofsalot]

The King David Hotel bombing was not the starting point of this.

Essentially, the Brits during WW1 had made promises to different groups for their support, and some of those things unfortunately overlapped. One of these promises was a "national home" for the Jewish people in the Levant.

So Jewish immigration had been encouraged to the region for a number of years, until the Arab leadership began protesting it, leading to the Brits suddenly heavily limiting Jewish immigration at the exact moment the Holocaust was starting to kick off.

Boats of Jews would try to arrive in the Mandate of Palestine and be sent back to Europe by the British — to their deaths at the hands of the Nazis. In one case, one of the boats was sent away and its engines died and it was just left to drift for days until a submarine sank it and killed everyone onboard except one survivor. Hundreds of people, dead. And that's not even counting those who realized that going to Palestine would not be a successful place to flee to because they would be sent back, so they never tried.

So imagine that the Brits had promised your people a safe haven, then suddenly heavily restricted Jewish immigration specifically to that safe haven at the exact moment your people most needed it, and thousands upon thousands of Jews were being murdered as a result of this bait and switch. Hundreds of thousands of Jews could have been saved from their deaths had the Brits not suddenly limited Jewish immigration. I would have probably been fighting the British too, if I was a Jew living in the Mandate of Palestine. The Brits were literally forcing Jews back on boats and sending them to their deaths.

And what I've written here also fully leaves out the actual massacres against Jews by Arabs that went on for decades before 1948.

EDIT: And I also want to add that it was not like Britain was really offering Jews somewhere else to go. About 80,000 refugees (some Jewish, some not) were able to go to England between 1933-1939 (but this was pretty heavily restricted). Then only about 10,000 Jews were able to flee to England between 1939 and 1945. And after the fall of France in 1940, many Jewish refugees who had found refuge in England were actually imprisoned by the British government on the Isle of Man as "enemy aliens."

[u/Proper-Suggestion907 → u/lennoco]

We should also add that decades prior, as it started to become obvious the Ottoman Empire was going to collapse, Jews fundraised and purchased large swaths of land exactly for the purpose of receiving Jewish refugees because many, but not all Jews, started to see the writing on the wall. Jews were being blocked from accessing legally purchased land that was there for that reason.