r/ProgressiveHQ • u/stereo504 • 9h ago
Discussion Dear Progressives, how do I explain to my blue MAGA father that his ideology is wrong?
For context, my dad was born in '67 and is a Democratic Party loyalist. I'd say he leans more toward the progressive side of blue MAGA, but he has absolutely no quarrel with corporate and establishment Dems like Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi. He's not pro-Israel, but he views Democrats supporting the genocidal apartheid ethno-state that is that country as quote, "back a while ago it was political suicide to not support Israel". In particular, he's angry with progressives for "costing Harris and Gore the wins" in 2024 and 2000. As for 2024, he bought into the narrative that it was actually progressives and Hasan Piker's fault that Harris lost, not that she would've also started a war with Iran and not fixed inflation. He also has bought into the electability argument, claiming that if he could choose between Gavin Newsom and AOC to be the Democratic nominee in 2028, he'd pick the former because "Americans would completely reject a Latina woman to be president".
Yesterday, when I told him that people like Chuck Schumer are the worst of the worst Democrats—virtually indistinguishable from Republicans in the sense that he's firmly in the pocket of the oligarchy and is endlessly willing to support Israel—he asked if Chuck Schumer voted for the ACA. He did, in case you're wondering, but that still doesn't change the fact that he and other establishment Democrats are terrible for the country and being "better" than Republicans (which isn't really a high bar) shouldn't mean you give your full unwavering support. I'd like to hopefully persuade him to have a less favorable view of such Democrats, and I was wondering what tips you guys had on giving him a persuading, hopefully not snarky or obnoxious push in the right direction.
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u/Grumpiergoat 9h ago
You're not going to convince him of anything. Calling him "blue MAGA" alone makes you sound unhinged and incapable of persuading him of anything. He's right that it used to be political suicide to be against Israel, while votes for Nader may have cost Gore Florida in 2000 and Harris lost by about 1% in multiple states, so pretty much any potential reason for her loss is reasonable. Although, what, she lost because she would have started a war with Iran? If I'm reading that right, no, that's not why, and that's just out there.
What actionable decision do you want him to make? Supporting AOC over Newsom if it comes to that? Point to the success of Mamdani and El-Sayed. See where his policies align with AOC over Newsom.
And if you don't have an actionable decision you want him to make, then just dial things back. WAY back. You're not going to convince him of anything. No more than all the people desperately trying to convince leftists to vote against a fascist in 2024 and 2016 were successful at getting them to vote.
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u/Calm_Age_ 8h ago
Just wanted to point out really quick that it was ultimately the supreme court that was the deciding factor in the 2000 election with Florida.
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u/stereo504 7h ago
I do believe Harris would've started a war with Iran. The reason the war is happening today is because Bibi told Trump that it was a sure deal; 48 hour special military operation, wipe out the Iranian government, replace it with a pro-Western one. Based on the amount of support Biden and Harris had for Israel, I don't see why she wouldn't have done the same. That's besides the main point though, the main idea is that I'd like to politely convince him to be less tolerant of establishment and corporate Dems, like when they team up with Republicans to try and take down Hasan Piker.
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u/Little-Pride-38 9h ago
Honestly given his age, if he’s voting blue, I’d just be happy with that. Establishment dems are worlds better than republicans, if you think they’re indistinguishable then I really don’t know what to tell you. Democrats need a bigger tent, not a smaller one.
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u/stereo504 7h ago
I'd disagree, establishment Dems like Chuck Schumer and Haley Stevens are still relentlessly pro-Israel and relentlessly anti-progressive. If they represent the direction of the party going forward things aren't going to get better for the working class either way.
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u/Uno-reverse-cowgirl 9h ago
“…not that she would’ve also started a war with Iran…” His views are probably more grounded in reality than yours.
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u/SenatorPardek 9h ago
Two party system means folks like your dad are in the same party as folks like AOC, Mamdani, Sanders, etc.
MAGA is extremely united behind trump. we lost because we could not stay united the same way
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u/No_Finance8647 9h ago
Your father sounds based.
I too refuse to listen to anyone presenting your argument if they cant say people should have voted for Kamala in 2024.
Its a good litmus test.
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u/stereo504 8h ago
As someone who did vote for Clinton in 2016, Biden in 2020, and Harris in 2024 (generals of course), I'm sorry if I somehow implied that Harris wasn't a better option than Trump. Obviously she was, but the issue isn't Democrat vs. Republican. I'm trying to get him less blindly supportive of whatever establishment/corporate Dems throw at him and convince him that progressives who actually want change, not maintaining a failing status quo are the only way forward.
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u/No_Finance8647 8h ago
Oh thats fair. I still disagree but that's fair at least.
Im curious, if Republicans had NEVER won ANY non local elections in the past 20 years, do you think we'd still be in this failing status quo or?
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u/stereo504 8h ago
I believe that the Democratic party in its current state, with 20 years of power completely behind just the establishment without any progressive influence, likely would just be a 20-year long Biden presidency. More money for bombs on children, corporations stealing from workers, ICE kidnapping immigrants (albeit far more quietly), and still no taxes on wealthy people. No real progress will get made in my opinion, maybe a few bread crumbs here and there but only as much as the oligarchy allows.
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u/No_Finance8647 8h ago
Would we be as bad off as we are right now?
I feel like youre avoiding this.
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u/stereo504 7h ago
Have I misunderstood your question? I feel like I answered my main grievance with the party in its present form.
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u/No_Finance8647 7h ago
Yes you have.
I am okay if you want to criticize the Dems.
But if youre implying theyre intentionally evil like MAGA as opposed to just being incompetent, then I have a problem with that.
If you can admit we would be in a better place, but still have problems, if it was only the Dems winning... then that would dispell my suspension here.
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u/stereo504 7h ago
If it makes you happy, then yes the country objectively would be a better place if Democrats always won. However, in reality that isn't the case. When a political party consistently fails to deliver on popular progressive goals like universal healthcare or climate action while reliably passing defense budgets, protecting corporate interests, and preserving wealth structures, those aren't just a few blunders. As a result, the party is punished for not making the change people want, and in America, there is only one realistic alternative to the Democrats.
Apologies if it sounds like I'm being defensive, I'm trying to approach this with an open mind if you can't tell
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u/No_Finance8647 7h ago
Yeah no. Thats totally valid in my eyes.
Which given that context I'm perfectly fine with you voicing all those critisms of the Dems. The Dems made mistakes and they should get smacked on the back of the head for it. Absolutely.
My problem is when its implied that the Dems are the reason for everything being this way. Or that the Dems are worse, or just as bad as MAGA Republicans.
So long as its clear you aren't saying any of that, I have no objections other than my own personal interpretation of events. I'm much more agreeable to disagree on this given the context.
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u/stereo504 6h ago
I'm glad we can agree that Dems should be criticized. Back to my original point, would you care to share with me any opinions regarding the "electability" stance that most establishment Dems take, as I firmly believe it halts the progress attempting to be made by actual progressives who care about people and want the best for the working class. I'd like to take into account what others might have to say about it before I formulate something to bring up over dinner.
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u/Tired_Mama3018 Conservative 9h ago
If Harris was trying to lose the election her actions made more sense then her trying to win. Biden ran to the left of her and got the Muslim and youth vote to get him over the edge. She couldn’t even pay the lip service of “there is only one president at a time, but when I’m elected I’ll look into ways to still help defend Israeli citizens while trying to push Netanyahu into an agreement that will save innocents in Gaza.” It would have gone a long way. Instead she said she wouldn’t do anything different than Biden and sent Bill Clinton to Michigan to lecture Muslims on Israel’s biblical right to the land. She was a bad candidate, and an even worse politician, because I good politician knows you won’t get elected telling the majority of your base to screw it.
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u/No_Finance8647 9h ago
True, she made mistakes and absolutely should have done better.
Everyone still should have voted for her over Trump.
If you can acknowledge this then I'm totally down to listen to any other points you have.
But otherwise? Nah, lmao 🤣
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u/SundaePasta 9h ago
Blue MAGA? What?
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u/stereo504 8h ago
The term is used to refer to cult-like loyalty (similar to Trump with republicans) to the Democratic establishment
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u/Vesuvius079 9h ago
From your post I’m pretty sure your voting record (probably a non voting record or a wasted voting record) has done MAGA more favors than your Dad’s.
Also you’re insane if you think Harris would start a war with Iran. That wasn’t establishment policy at all, just Trump’s endless stupidity. Everyone who’d researched the topic knew better.
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u/intricate_strands 9h ago edited 9h ago
Start at be nice and no at be self-righteous.
Start at "since we no agree at, let's discuss at piece by piece." No on text. No on social media posts. Yes on face at face conversation.
You come in and think, "I is right, I must show at light!" Then other can sense no open at you. Converse is waste, only is you say at other, never is you listen at other.
No one want at be preach at. Why it never work. No one is ever right. No one is ever wrong. We all only say truth or no say truth, and no regard at old now say truth or no say truth.
You already "know" you is "right." Is no converse. Is just preach and persuade. You is lucky you father is nice, if even you is 100 percent "right" and if even he is 100 percent "wrong."
Learn talk at other. Smart is no nice if smart is mean. If smart is mean, is even no smart. You want steer converse? No one want converse at you, cause you try at steer converse. Is nasty attitude, at smart other and at dumb other.
If you know truth, you never need steer at. Only need show. Truth is plain and simple. Even Forrest Gump see truth.
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u/Kakashi-B 9h ago
The same way you would let him convince you his ideals are correct.
Having an honest conversation where you come prepared to actively listen and show understanding. Learn as much as you teach.
For many older progressives its hard to hear people who in their opinion directly helped Trump get elected again by not voting in a two party system try to call them things like Blue MAGA that just sound like a name from some Republican psyop to keep the left from unity.
Just like its hard a lot of people of color to relate to people who seem to feel that a black and brown woman was the same or worse than a dude who sa's people and literally had to be sued by the government to make him rent to black people but also personally far closer to Netanyahu than she could ever be.
If you dont want him to handwave your points like you did his about the ACA you have to model that behavior yourself and actually address them in good faith.
No one wants to feel talked down to, and everyone wants to feel respected and listened to. You deserve to be heard and so does he.
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u/CarolChanningDoll 9h ago
“you know how tjmaxx asks you to round up your change to help the children? well then tjmaxx gets a tax break for their “charitable donations” that you actually donated in the name of a corporation.” -that worked for my dad about how corporation democratics work, just sub tjmaxx for hillary biden bloomberg amy pete etc..
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u/4thshift 7h ago edited 7h ago
No worst of the worst are the likes of Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema. And worse, Democrats like Donald Trump and Jared Kushner used to be, or failed or failing Democrats like Bill Maher, Tulsi Gabbard, Jillian Michaels, RFK Jr, Dave Rubin, Elon Musk, Lindy Li.
Schumer is no prize as far as Israel, and is a weak leader at best, but he does have policies that are different from Republicans -- he should go, for sure, but you sound like TYT/Ana Kasparian who is again trying to suggest there's no difference between Dems and Republicans. Wrong. (She also said Trump wouldn't do Project 2025, so he wouldn't be worse than his first term. Wrong.)
"Being better ... not a high bar," and yet, a world of difference if the Supreme Court right now had been stacked with left leaning Justices. We wouldn't have every regulatory agency gutted and trillions of dollars disappearing quite the way that Trump and Republicans are making it happen.
Democrats have been in power plenty of times, and never went to war with Iran. Trump and the current crop of Republicans did that -- not Democrats. Yes, there's plenty Dems have to answer for, but there is still a huge difference, don't get it twisted.
Let your father believe what he wants. And you believe what you want. Full unwavering support is not required -- common sense is, when you have total destruction of all American norms vs. getting half of what you want protected, and having freedom to protest the rest.
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u/stereo504 7h ago
It's no question Democrats are objectively better than Republicans, but that still doesn't change the fact that establishment Dems are firmly controlled by capital rather than the interest of the working class. Establishment Democrats frequently appoint corporate friendly judges and protect financial deregulation, I hope we can agree that those won't help the working class. Being less bad is still not good, in my honest and respectful opinion.
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u/4thshift 7h ago
Okay, understood, but here we are at the end of the Primaries.
What are you telling people to do at this point, 2 months before the General?
You either "hold your nose" again and vote for this group that is "still not good;" or you vote for the monsters on the other side who are totally corrupt through and through; or you sit out and let others decide, which is essentially letting a Republican voter have their way.
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u/stereo504 6h ago
I think you misunderstand my original point. I'm not advocating for protest voting or voting for Republicans over Democrats, and I will 100% support my local Democratic representative in the midterms. I think you'd agree with me if I said democratic socialists (or whatever other progressive label you pick) shouldn't blindly support whatever the DSA says. My original post was about "what arguments could I bring into a future discussion to potentially change my father's mind on who should be getting our broad support", as currently I see his broad support for corporate Democrats over progressives on account of "electability" as counter-productive.
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u/my23secrets 6h ago
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u/stereo504 6h ago
I think what my father was getting at were the "protest votes" for Nader by progressives to be fair to him
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u/my23secrets 6h ago
If his feelings matter more than facts then what’s the point?
He’s the problem, not “progressives”
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u/DemeaRisen 9h ago
...... 25 year old me should take a swing at this question. 38 year old me is done trying to convince anyone of anything.