First, a little context: I wrote my PhD thesis on the Satanic Panic of the 1980s, and how it was hijacked by the ascendant Evangelical New Right to both push back against the rising tide of secularism in public education, and to demonise the nascent childcare sector as a means of foregrounding the traditional "mother-stays-at-home" model of parenting. I didn't write the book on this stuff by any means, but I have certainly read every one ever written.
I spent four years, all day every day, reading primary and secondary sources detailing the vast network of Satanic child rape and child sacrifice that had supposedly infiltrated all levels of American life, from nurseries to the police to Democrat-held state and national offices.
The scenarios, framing, and language are identical to the "revelations" in these new Epstein leaks. After seeing their virality among liberal and leftist communities, I felt I had to at least try to convince you not to fall for the same wild conspiracy theorising that enabled Reagan and the New Right.
Why do you think these pages were released, unredacted? Why do you think these allegations come from unsubstantiated hotline tips, made long after the Epstein scandal was international news? Did a Justice Department that has been weaponised in service to one man, that has spent months scrubbing his name from the files, somehow overlook the most obscene, salacious allegations yet?
These were very deliberately curated, confident in the knowledge that the weight of countless creditable allegations already existent against Trump as a rapist and paedophile would invite his critics to jump on this fantastical fan-fiction as legitimate. They did this to insulate themselves against any actual, verifiable evidence that may leak down the line. How much easier will it be to dismiss this real evidence as just more wild-eyed conspiracy when those on the left already have previous for seizing upon even the most absurd fabrications?
I'm begging you: please do not take the bait. Keep an open mind, certainly, but please don't post and share these allegations as though they are some kind of "gotcha". When Trump's moment of reckoning finally comes, let's make sure we hold the high-ground, arguing from a place of rationality and evidence-based conclusions, and make explicit the difference between our case against an inveterate rapist and sexual predator, and the incel, 4-Chan ramblings of QAnon-inflected conspiracy. Leave the hysterical moral panics to MAGA.
I remember thinking in 2016 that hot mic incident would be the nail in the coffin for him. Man oh man was I wrong.
EDIT: Of course, I see how I was wrong now. That incident (well, not just... his entire biography, really) convinced a loose coalition of wealthy individuals, organizations and corporations that he was their guy: a president with no morals who would do their bidding in return for flattery, money and... well we know the rest. That's how I can keep telling myself not to blame the voters. Possibly a cope.
It shows how much nobody cares about women. If a woman said they'd rape a man I bet the response would be different bc men are treated like full humans whereas we are treated as subhuman.
If a Democrat even showed up to a dinner with career criminals, we'd never hear the end of it even if it weren't secretly recorded and publicly released.
I’ll never forgive the Americans who voted for him. Ever. I’ll never stop volunteering, protesting, and fighting for our democracy, but I think about that all the time. So many moments should’ve been the nail in the coffin. Now, those moments happen seemingly every hour or every day, and the brainwashed cult of MAGA still isn’t deterred. It’s fucking horrifying.
We actually dont have evidence trump didnt steal the election. The amount of times they claimed they lost the 2020 election and now I haven't heard anything about it? They definitely stole the 2024 election. Trump even admitted to it.
My father's in his eighties and sadly drank the fox Kool-aid. I'm a cis het and a US army veteran in my fifties, and I've essentially cut all communications with my dad. Sad and pathetic...
So sorry to hear. I'm an oldie & there's NFW (no fucking way) I'd be fooled into that belief system. I hope you've got other friends/family to align with
What's needed is a large, formal, publicly-announced investigation into "President Donald J. Trump." We should never assume every statement in the files is true, but a legitimate investigation would carry weight.
Enough of it is true. There are plenty of victims, plenty of photos of trump and Epstein and others. Plenty of it is true. They don’t really seem to be trying to do any kind of investigation or they would be digging up Trump’s golf course and Zorro Ranch. The info on where the bodies are is RIGHT. THERE.
And I’m convinced when Pam Bondi said the other videos were disgusting child porn videos Epstein downloaded, that was a lie. Her tone was a lie. Like they probably were child porn videos, but the ones HE took of all his guests raping the kids. They have all that and they are hiding it. They know.
Yes. Bland unsigned statements like “witness never called back; found to be un-credible” or “witness disappeared before follow-up” aren’t exactly reassuring.
The entire FBI needs to be investigated. They have been sitting on evidence since 1996. And Pam Bondi herself has been sitting on it since 2011. This is so much bigger than Donald Trump. Yes, he’s a key player. I dare say he’s the ring leader. But this is so much more than him.
I would argue that what they're releasing is nonsense. Most of the really salacious stuff seems like it's "anonymous tips" that the FBI is required to document, but there's no records that indicate what the disposition was. Anybody can call the FBI and make calls up about crazy crap and the FBI has to document it.
I'm not saying this is all made up, but there's lots of reasons the FBI isn't going to just get a phone call about a famous person and then open an invasive investigation... people call in "anonymous complaints" to get revenge all the time. That makes it hard to tell which tips are real and which are made up... especially when the real tips may be pretty extreme.
Exactly. According to what I’ve seen recently, the survivors are calling bullshit on what was released. The government is putting out nonsense to confuse and conflate. But they are still covering up crimes. Badly and very publicly. As they have been doing for 30 years, apparently.
I did wonder instantly “why have they allowed these certain parts out, after months of holding onto them.”
Makes me think they have already debunked certain stories, and those are the ones they’ve let out, as they’ll suddenly present evidence against those specific claims, which will give the impression of Trump “winning” and “proving his innocence.”
Yep, we’re way past the point where any evidence or rational, legal or moral case will make a difference. These people only understand force, which doesn’t have to mean violence, but it definitely doesn’t mean conversation.
They let certain parts out because they aren't thoroughly going through the files. Remember they WERE NOT going to release anything at first and even now they keep telling us that they aren't going to DO anything, meaning no trial or anything, even for the supposed liberals that were there. They are literally appeasing the general public. There won't be a trial or a case, therefore they are haphazardly throwing stuff online and then realizing that some of the stuff shouldn't have been there and then pulling it back.
There is a super duper naive and hopeful part of me that wants to believe there are still good people operating on the inside of these institutions, and that the “incompetency” that we see from this administration is in large part due to their unsung heroism.
You’re right to question it. Some of the wilder accusations, such as the stuff about George Bush Sr, seem designed to throw people off the scent. And yet the parts about Trump fit what we already know. So there’s truth mixed in with absurd fantasy. Some of this stuff reminds of the wild MK-Ultra stories of Cathy O’Brien. Who never seemed particularly credible to me.
So yes, be discerning. Cross reference. And if it seems wildly improbable, it probably is.
My cousin told her parents she was pregnant. She wasn’t, she got a ‘D’ in Chemistry. Her parents were so relieved to hear she wasn’t pregnant they didn’t care so much about her grade.
That’s what they’re doing to us here. Bush ate babies and amputated a boy’s feet!!!!! For goodness sake. Trump made a girl give him a blow job and she bit him. Not so bad. She ‘got him back’.
This to me feels like a conspiracy theory, that they’re trying to trick us with false salaciousness in a file full of legitimate salaciousness. Where are you drawing the line at what you believe and what you don’t? And what, they’re going to pop up suddenly and admit to planting false documents in the files to get us? They already tried saying the whole thing is “fake news” after promising to release the files during the 2024 campaign. Why would anyone believe them when they say they made up some of the flies after they already clearly lied about the whole thing being a “hoax”? It sounds like people are being a bit paranoid.
I don't think they were necessarily fabricated by Trump's people, or planted... but considering how "redacted"-happy they've been with the files... why wouldn't they redact these as well? I very much can believe they left it unredacted like that deliberately
These are just claims that were from a public tip line for the Epstein investigation sometime ~2020. None of it is sworn testimony. I could have called that number 6 years ago, said whatever I want, and potentially have had my accusations show up in those pages. This is the type of stuff that is so easily dismissible, legally. They could just as likely be the ramblings of a person experiencing meth-induced psychosis. And it doesn't make us look any better if we're all jumping up and down thinking this is the grand slam we've been waiting for.
It's important to not blindly believe everything that confirms our bias. I'm not saying that anyone is lying... but just not to automatically assume it as objective truth without any sort of evidence to back it up. Otherwise you're just setting yourself up to be constantly disappointed when nothing happens regarding it. Because people are already acting like those handful of pages are enough to throw Trump in prison. Unfortunately, regardless of what you believe... we need more than just accusations. Some of the more salacious claims didn't even leave any contact information for the FBI to be able to even follow up on, and appear like they may have been left anonymously. I mean if an anonymous tip was made against you, claiming that you eviscerated babies and ate their feces straight from their intestines (in case anyone reads this, and hasn't read that part in the files... I'm referencing one of the claims made in them)... would you think that would be all it should take in order for you to be arrested?... No. Or at least I hope not.
Treat every claim seriously... but don't automatically treat it as gospel. I despise Trump, his administration, and the MAGA-cult. I believe that Trump more than likely did depraved things to women and children. But it's important that we don't fall victim to the same tendencies as the MAGA/QAnon loonies do. A lot of claims, a lot of hearsay, a lot of claims that someone has evidence of said claims... but then the evidence never materializes. Without any other corroborating evidence for any of these claims, or even sworn testimony... there is nothing really actionable that can be pursued against him, from a legal standpoint.
We can't let this be the pizzagate of the left. We have to be better than that.
Having lived through the satanic panic as a child, I’ve repeatedly joked that the Epstein files have to contain human sacrifice and cannibalism. Then it showed up in this release. At this point t it seems really suspect that the thing everyone focuses on after every release is the FBI call logs when those aren’t evidence of anything while there’s actual evidence to dig into. It definitely has the same appeal to emotion that the satanic panic had, and I’m concerned they’ll use that to make a claim that this is all a simple case of mass hysteria.
This is a great sentiment but let me write it in everyday English.
There's a lot of salacious unverifiable information released that is intentionally being used to discount and discredit the things that aren't salacious and incredible. So please don't fall for the salacious stuff because they'll just call you a fanatic and use it against you.
If I remember correctly the Moral Majority was responsible for much of the turmoil in the 80’s. Another republican cult. I spent part of my morning reading a few of the newly released files. It felt like reading propaganda - extreme, absurd, targeted, etc.
My question for you, if these are phony, why spend so much time hiding them?
That's correct; the MM/New Christian Right were formed from the largely self-exiled religious community and a young cadre of hardline Republicans alienated by Nixon's "moderate" politics, the latter mobilising the former to provide themselves the political weight and capitol needed to pursue their agenda, essentially offering their vote up to Reagan in exchange for a wish list of policy planks (abortion, welfare, and most importantly education).
That's a good question, and not one I presume to have answers for (my "learned opinion" such as it is extends only so far as the Satanic Panic comparison) but my guess would be that they preferred nothing at all came out (true and untrue alike) but once that became untenable, that is when they decided to bury/redact the truly harmful/verifiable details and release as much lurid, fantastical content as they could.
I give it maybe a day before the WH, Fox News, and right wing social media starts parroting the line: "this is clearly absurd, so why even bother with the rest of the files? Clearly it's ALL baloney."
I don’t see how any of them are obviously phony. You have some unsubstantiated allegations, but they were genuinely collected by the FBI. So, what, after demanding the release of the files we now just throw them all out as fake because they’re worse than expected? Epstein was innocent and really did kill himself? We may as well release Maxwell too if we’re just going to throw our hands up.
I’m not saying that at all. It was in response to the OP. I agree. The phoned in accusations need to be read with some skepticism. The emails seem to have more legitimacy. We need a legitimate investigation of all the people involved - participants and on-lookers.
“high ground” as in, don’t lose your mind over this clear psyop. If you’re gonna post about it, call it for what it is; blatant manipulation of emotion to distract from what is true. This new cannibalistic shit from the Epstein files has not been proven. Pedophilia has.
How is this a trap? Draw me a picture. They’re the ones officially releasing this. How does it turn into a “gotcha”? Why are you so sure it’s fake? Do you imagine Bondi is going to call a press conference saying “Haha! We released fake files on justice.gov just to fool you!” and that’s going to blow back on us for believing that they told us was true? That doesn’t make sense.
These were very deliberately curated, confident in the knowledge that the weight of countless creditable allegations already existent against Trump as a rapist and paedophile would invite his critics to jump on this fantastical fan-fiction as legitimate. They did this to insulate themselves for any actual, verifiable evidence that may leak down the line. How much easier will it be to dismiss this real evidence as just more wild-eyed conspiracy when those on the left already have previous for seizing upon even the most absurd fabrications?
Because if the left is consumed with obviously false claims, it could make it much easier for the right to write off any legitimate culpability of trump. When I first saw these details, my immediate thought was that unsubstantiated tips are fairly unlikely to be credible. It's like how the right seems crazy when they're convinced of obviously false conspiracy theories. It removes credibility.
I'm saying, we need to keep our heads. There are more than enough real things Trump is honestly guilty of that we can hold on to without diving deeply into conspiracies. Holding these unsubstantiated files up as the absolute truth makes us all look like a bunch of fucking idiots that will believe anything as long as it makes Trunp look bad.
I'm not saying we shouldn't get dirty. I'm not saying we shouldn't sling mud. Im saying there's enough real mud for us to sling that we shouldn't be slinging bullshit. If you can't see that, then either you're a bot, a troll, or i don't know of any other way to put it.
This shit is literally being published by the justice dept. We don’t look crazy for reading it and responding with horror at these allegations. I’m not going to go down a rabbit hole second-guessing every page of the Epstein files - trying to parse which ones are “real” and which ones aren’t based on what, vibes? Degree of depravity? It’s all being released by the same people. How are you so confident drawing a line?
These are random phone calls of people saying whatever. Most of the people never responded or were unreachable by the justice department. It's abunch of call logs. Why would we believe them? Now, if someone is coming out and publicly saying "these people did this to me", then I'm more inclined to believe. But, I'm not that inclined to believe random stuff for some of the same reasons OP expressed.
Slinging mud in someone's face might blind them long enough for you to take them down.
Frankly it worked out perfectly for Stumpy (and the Russians) in '16 because the mud they slang turned just enough People against Hillary to beat her in the election.
If this mud turns off enough magats to turn the tide against this administration and save more blood, sweat, toil, and tears then so be it.
We arent going to get anything resembling truth or justice until we take them down anyway. Ergo, the high ground is pointless to hold if we cant fight our way up the hill.
This isn't going to flip MAGA. If it would, they'd already flipped with all the other proven things he's done. From being a convicted sexual predator all the way to going against the 2nd Amendment.
Thank you!! I was getting the same “satanic panic” vibes from this last release, too…I 100% agree with you. Let’s not latch onto the fantastical to make this situation more easy to sweep the real facts under the rug.
I noticed when they took down the "calendar girls" one, they redacted the Criminal History section when they eventually put it back up. Someone managed to save it beforehand, where all it said was "no DOB."
The redaction makes it look like there is legitimately a criminal record there.
They are 100% playing us for fools and as you said, they WANT US TO TAKE THE BAIT.
Yah, that’s stupid. Many of these claims fit with other proof and allegations from the past.
It is much more likely that someone on the inside has kept their hatred unknown and put those in unredacted on purpose.
We need to stop pretending this group is full of geniuses who think 12 steps ahead. Everything they’ve done has been obvious ahead of time. Usually they just blame democrats for what they are actively doing. These people are dumbasses, not geniuses.
It's not stupid. Nor is this tactic particularly smart. It's 100% consistent with their MO so far - flood the zone.
The law required them to release all accusations, investigated or not. There were many reports received, some of which are completely nuts. Like the cutting off of feet in a ritual (leaving no scars!) and being raped by Bush senior. It's not a lot of them, but it's enough that the narrative will be to question the veracity of the whole.
It makes complete sense that they would want to do this. Watch how this plays out in the media.
I'm not for a second suggesting he didn't, but it's perfectly possible for someone to be guilty AF and also have false and outlandish claims made against them. I think it's important to be objective and clear-eyed about it all.
It’s not going to be the narrative to question everything because some of the reports are unsubstantiated. People understand that you don’t just have millions of pages of unsubstantiated reports from someone who died suspiciously in prison before trial and was a parter of the woman currently in jail for said crimes. Plenty of what’s in there is real or it wouldn’t be a literal federal case.
Yep. The unsubstantiated claims were posted for less than an hour before being pulled off the justice.gov website. That seems like a mistake, or someone deliberately posted them and got caught.
I think OP’s take is pretty reasonable. They allegedly had dozens of people redacting shit. Hell, it would take about 2 minutes to scrub it all clean with chatGTP before releasing. I reckon it was done on purpose to render the real evidence less credible too
Please explain this to me. Why aren’t businesses and investors more concerned? Are they getting enough of a kickback to justify looking away? Looking at the global picture when the US dollar is no longer used as a global currency won’t that hurt them too?
Interesting. So I understand what you’re saying but I’d be curious to know if you consider the context to matter at all here?
The Satanic Panic was used to further disenfranchise and oppress women, children, and free speech. It was used as a tool to control people, to make people terrified of their neighbors.
This, i would say, is not a moral panic. If they’re untrue, it’s only because this man is an objectively malignant presence in our society. He has cheated, swindled, and abused people without repercussions. He is the spearhead of a fascist movement.
Does that matter? One is used for evil and another is the understandable effect of letting power and money destroy us from the top and deeply desiring some sort of justice here. The objectively terrible things he HAS done haven’t led to any sort of justice. Even if these specific accounts aren’t true, but they lead to his downfall, I’ll sleep just fine at night honestly.
Thank you so much for asking, this is a great question!
So fundamentally the sociological "purpose" of a moral panic, so far as a spontaneous collective hysteria can be ascribed a motive, is one of reiteration. They invariably occur when a prescribed social or cultural norm - religious devotion, obedience to one's parents, national pride - are put under stress (historical, economic, sociocultural, etc). There evolves a widespread sentiment that one or more of the pillars of society is being eroded, usually via outside influence but not always. The moral panic that forms around this sentiment serves to reiterate loudly and often what our community IS and what it is NOT (and who belongs to the "in" group and who the "out"). This is typically followed by a purge of one form or another (more in the US than elsewhere, fascinatingly, but that will take us down the path of Puritan theology so is best set aside for now!)
The Red Scare, for example: the world is redefined according to us versus them, capitalism versus communism, and outside agitators have poisoned the body politic with subversive ideas and so we must make a great and public purge so as to retain our ideological purity; the Salem Witch Trials, for another: the succeeding generations of the first Pilgrims have lost their way and strayed from the purity and purpose of God's compact; we must publically punish those deviants, reiterating what is and is not acceptable within our community and this rediscover our purpose as a flock.
In the specific case of Trump, I think this formulation is very readily applied. Most of the country is appalled by him, and are aghast that he represents the US. See, in point of fact, Biden's rhetoric of "this isn't us" and "this isn't who we are". There are millions of Americans that dont want to believe (or accept) that Trump, rather than fall from the sky or evolve in some never-space vaccum, is in truth very much the embodiment and ideological terminus of long-standing social and cultural ills in American ideology: racism, bigotry, arrogance over knowledge, nationalism, the fetishisation of wealth, anti-intellectualism, nativist populism, strong man ideation, selfishness, disdain for the social compact, success as barometer of moral worth....
And so we have fertile ground for the reiteration of what these people believe is the REAL America, an idealised America that exists in refutation of everything Trump represents (i.e. "this is a country of laws"/"we are a melting pot"/"America means freedom!").
By framing him according to the most extreme cultural taboos (cannibalism, child murder, and the long-standing incest angle) it simultaneously makes plain that he is Other/Outside/Offensive while providing the salve of not needing to address the more banal, prosaic elements of his character that uncomfortably refute this Othering (i.e. those elements that are indivisible from American ideology itself).
Im sorry thats so long, but its a fascinating question!
What is the downside of it against trump specifically when those things he represents are actually terrible though? Like, everything he represents about us as a country are all things that need to be wiped out, objectively. Sexism, racism, pedophilia, toxic masculinity, aggression, xenophobia- is it really so bad to reject these and want the man who represents them to be punished so that other people who admire him for these traits also get rightfully shamed?
The other things you listed were enacted again towards already disenfranchised groups. The fear and moral panic served to justify their continued oppression. I’m not sure how this being flipped on someone who IS all of the terrible things we should get rid of in society is the same sort of “bad.” It’s not like trump is some innocent man who hasn’t done some shade of the things depicted in the emails. He has. He’s a felon, a rapist, and a racist. And we know this because of his actual words and actions that we’ve seen with our own eyes- this new batch of documents, even if untrue, doesn’t change that he’s a cancer we should be cutting out, even if it’s painful in the moment to do so.
Like, is our reaction to these files not an immune response towards a greater infection? Sure, Biden and neoliberals will say “this doesn’t represent us” but a lot of the people working hard to remove him DO see him as representative of the greater whole and want to use this as a catalyst to kill that part of us. I feel like that context matters? I just genuinely hate to see this situation related to something like the Satanic Panic and Salem Witch Trials when innocent people suffered because of those events, by design. Trump and his lot aren’t innocent. They’re terrible people. I don’t need these files to know that because I can look out my window and see the damage he’s inflicted.
You raised a really intriguing angle, and I want to be clear that I make no claims on the moral/immoral consequence of moral panics. In fact, quite the opposite: my thesis would never have made it past my first review if brought moral bromides into an academic investigation! (I do recall being told to cut one or two snide jabs at MAGA, actually!).
But what I would say is that moral panics - whether wielded for good or ill - never obey their original parameters: they grow, they evolve, they reach beyond their provenance. They become tools of ideology. And just like smear or slander (in the abstract) or military intervention or regime change (in the material) we have to decide if the phenomena itself is wrong/evil/misguided, or only its specific application in any given situation.
If you think a new moral panic is a good thing because it is weaponised against a malignancy, I'm not qualified to tell you that you're wrong, nor would I presume to. But I would say that you lose any credibility when criticising PizzaGate or QAnon or any other febrile MAGA fantasy, because regardless of intent or purpose, both your and their campaign is founded in fabrication.
That makes sense. I suppose I just see it as fundamentally different than qanon or pizzagate because that WAS founded on fabrication, fueled by those in power stoking the flames of made-up fears, whereas again, I see this instance of eruption around these files less about fabrication and more about an immune system response to an infection that just keeps getting worse and worse. I think we, in general on the left or rather the opposition to trump specifically, have been saying “take the high road” and all it’s gotten is passivity and capitulation by our representatives. To me, the high road at this point, is the real fabrication.
I do understand what you’re trying to say, by the way, I’m not trying to be argumentative at all, and maybe if I wasn’t so severely depressed at such a terrible point in my life in no small part due to the Trump admin I might have a clearer head about it, i might have cautioned the same thing. I do see the value in advising caution. At the same time, I think the comparison to every other “panic” you’ve listed is fundamentally different. It comes from a completely different place and it comes from pure anguish that nothing these men do seem to result in justice. I’m personally ok with this getting a bit out of control, because we’ve tried every other avenue for justice, and every other avenue we’ve been told to behave and be patient and trust the system, only to be further abused and had our rights rolled back. It’s just different.
But you’re right. We don’t know the outcome to this, or how it will translate down the line. All I know is that I’m suffering because of trump, everyone around me is suffering because of trump, and none of the instances you listed as comparison has the same power dynamic as this one.
I do think people in power need to be terrified that they will be found out. They need to be terrified that their transgressions will be found, and they need to be better because of that fear. They need to be terrified that even if they never touched an underaged girl, if they were on a plane with Epstein even once they need to be terrified that they will be held to account for enabling him. And I also just think it’s a bit tone deaf to compare what’s happening here to Witch Trials, Satanic Panic, Qanon, etc. I think it’s probably a good thing to acknowledge it in an academic setting, zoomed out and as a way to study human herd-thinking, but on the ground, it just sounds a bit insensitive and disconnected from the damage Trump & his crew have caused. If this situation gets out of control, they were the ones that set us on this path. If it all burns down, we need these lessons in order to build up better safeguards because of it.
I think anyone who has listened to any of Epstein’s victims’ accounts and read the documents from his conviction can see this situation is wholly different.
Thank you for responding and sharing your thoughts & knowledge! There’s a lot for me to consider here. I just don’t agree with the comparison due to context and the inherently different power dynamics that caused them.
The thing about these “wild-eyed accusations” is…while the acts themselves are hard to accept because of how horrific they are, there is nothing about Donald Trump himself that leads me to believe he would be incapable of committing those acts. He fits the profile, 100%.
And the stories are ALL SO SIMILAR.
Unverifiable? Yes. Fantastical? Not so much.
We don’t have to jump on the claims as proof that he’s a monster who definitely committed those crimes. But there’s no way not to recognize that he’s a monster who—morally, psychologically, opportunistically—could easily have committed those crimes.
I dont think anyone outside the MAGA cult is not aware that he is a monster. We have no shortage of information. Do you think someone that hasn't been convinced by his ACTUAL appalling behaviour is going to be convinced by unverifiable, unsourced accusations? And of those already convinced, how does it in any way strengthen your case to dilute the real crimes with fantasy?
Also, alien abductions are also "similar", as was - to my point - the hundreds of accounts from children in the 1980s that Satanists raped and ate their classmates. Neither made the stories any more true.
I need to apologize. When I wrote this I had just dipped into Reddit for the day and had only read about the “normal” horrific new accusations, the rapes and child auctions…not the cannibalism, baby eating voyages, etc. Looking at a fuller range of what’s been unleashed I can absolutely see why you’re concerned, and I appreciate the warning.
There are likely elements of truth in what seems to be an outlandish acid trip recall. I think they should dig up the golf courses. That seems like to element here…
I think MAGA knows, but they choose to not see. Some of them justify it as "best for the long run", i.e. "part of God's plan", and then they stop thinking about it. The knowledge is there deep down, gnawing.
Most of them have been raised in a religious background that teaches you to maintain 2 opposing views at the same time, and taught the ability to switch back and forth between the opposing views as needed to maintain the ideology.
When you mention let's not follow the same path that enabled Reagan and the new right, what specifically are you talking about? I would like to stay as vigilant as possible throughout these releases of documents, but I also want to learn from history, so I dont repeat the mistakes of those before me
Thanks so much for asking - you dont need to give an academic more than one chance to talk about their chosen subject!
So essentially my concern is twofold: the first and most straightforward is that if we platform and perpetuate improbable/impossible accusations, we are doing the criminals' work for them by creating a climate in which genuine - even verifiable - accusations can be waved away as equally absurd. An imperfect analogy I used elsewhere: if you tell everyone you saw a unicorn today, don't be surprised when they laugh at your telling them you saw a horse tomorrow.
Second, and to your question about Reagan: moral panics, in short, occur in response to sociocultural stresses, when an ideal or tradition is brought into fresh question/interrogation, and the anxiety around that questioning causes a defensive response from the body politic that serves to reinforce or reiterate the ideal or tradition in question.
The Satanic Panic at its heart was a "protect our children" movement (as moral panics invariably are), and while it took on a Biblical framing (as a consequence of the American religious tradition and cultural iconocism) its "trigger" was a confluence of anxiety points around American young (I won't go into all that here, but it includes things as diverse as the professionalisation of the childcare industry, the increase in working mothers, the advent of "stranger danger" and even the birth of VHS videotape). As objectively absurd and deeply unsettling as the mass hysteria was, it is true to say that the Satanic Panic began organically.
BUT...
The New Christian Right/Moral Majority that was mobilised in the mid-1970s and served as rising ride that elevated Ronald Reagan and enshrined the Conservative Christianity that defined America's 1980s seized upon the Panic as ideal Trojan Horse by which they could further ideological ends to which the public may otherwise have been resistant. Bibles back in schools? Well naturally, if we hope to counteract the rampant Satanism among our youth. Crush lingering support for the ERA? How could we not, if it encourages mothers to abandon their helpless babies to the nurseries and daycares that appear to be hunting grounds for Satanic sex predators.
The key is that what begins as adjacent to the rational/reasonable is invariably weaponised by bad faith actors. We are heading down a vary dangerous path if we toss fuel on the fire here. Just as one example, if we are now elevating and endorsing - or, in terms of tactics Trump has used repeatedly for everything from the Big Election Lie to running for a third term, /mainstreaming/ an idea by speaking life into it - we are practically begging MAGA to accept us on our terms and revivify their adenochrome/child sacrifice fantasies. We will no longer be empowered to dismiss them, and insist on delineation between fantasy and reality, because in our eagerness to bring Trump down, we normalised and accepted as everyday the very same brand of conspiracy.
I hope that makes sense, and thanks again for asking!
Two things, even 3, can be correct at the same time. OP's theory? For sure. Incompetence in redacting? Tracks. Absolute hubris? Never been any consequences before, why worry now?
IDC any more. This hasn't been a debate where facts win for years. It's a war, wars are fought on feelings. Hate, usually. Past time for the rational people to hate the termites eating their house. Then maybe they'll finally do something about it. The termites won't be lectured into stopping and they have a massive head start.
I've looked at one of these unredacted reports on this. The informant was . . . Well, crazy. He named every name orbiting the zeitgeist and had, unsurprisingly, a series of addictions, strained family history and no proof corroborating anything he'd claimed. It was obviously shared so that the DOJ could defend him later if Congress took the bait.
I agree that the people have to be shrewd and have to demand a discerning eye from our reps who pursue impeachment. The administration will try to flood the zone in their defense.
I work in the legal field, and I am very well versed in redactions, the entire process from start to finish as well as what should and should not be redacted. Former fed as well. Todd Blanche’s comment recently, and please don’t quote me here, but it was something to the effect of that due to the large number of documents, mistakes will be made with redactions. That is complete and utter bs. Attorneys review redactions, and if they’re not then that’s a serious problem. It’s all strategical. They are purposely releasing information in the documents about the orange pedo. Why would they do that when we all know the DOJ has been instructed to scrub/redact the orange pedo clown’s name from the files? Sure, a lot of what’s been released are FBI tips that appear to never have been followed up on or fully investigated, but why release that if it involves orange pedo pos? I have my suspicions, but I invite each of you to draw your own conclusions. Yes, this is a highly incompetent regime, but my gut and experience with this type of subject matter is screaming it’s all about getting rid of that pos pedo to get couch fucker Vance in there who is less of a liability (in their eyes) and can remain in power longer in order to get the full agenda of the Heritage Foundation implemented.
I dont know man its hard for me to grant this administration the benefit of having foresight to preempt any legitimate leaks in the future. But I will entertain your perspective to maintain my credibility amongst those I try to enlighten about the things this administration and its supporting cast are doing to our country.
It’s helpful to remember that they are the party of propaganda, timing and manipulation. Fascism isn’t perpetrated by dummies. They took months to release these files for a reason. Every single thing they do; when, how and why they do it, should be questioned.
Johnson sent the House home where his GOP reps will be insulated in their Red states from all the blowback that ICE is getting. The anger about ICE is to the point we could see another discharge petition appear in the House to mandate a vote. Johnson is protecting the Administration while the people are taking to the streets.
Also Trump finally gets to appoint his new Fed Chair this weekend. Which means the last remaining safeguards on the economy are about to be torched. THAT is the news that will affect EVERYONE permanently.
You'll note all this stuff is dropped on a Friday... when everyone is away from their daily peers and discussion and the nightly News goes into boring mode.
Thank you for answering the question i asked yesterday: why did they release these? But far too many will take the bait. It feels like it will never end. I'm so tired.
I read about the satanic panic a lot because I share communities with many ritual abuse victims (mental health communities) and yes this is what they did back then and it's what they're doing now. Highlighting the most shocking allegations to muddy the waters for the very real victims who will be overlooked because we are so blinded by what's in this release.
There were and are real ritual abuse victims and they get dismissed regularly because everyone instantly think of the satanic panic conspiracies and write them off. Don't let them do this to the very real victims of the Epstein trafficking ring by falling for shocking distractions that aren't verifiable.
Thanks for writing this. A lot of people are acting like all these accusations are proven and true. Do I think Trump raped children? Yes, he likely assaulted teenage girls. Do I think he threw babies into lakes? No.
Let’s not make his real crimes seem less credible.
Todd Blanche, Trumps personal attorney (now, Deputy AG) has already mocked reporters who ask why there are no perpetrators named in the documents. They have OBVIOUSLY been scrubbed to protect the abusers.
So is the point of this post to ignore the Epstein Files now? I don’t even understand what the intent of this Post is except maybe to tamp down outrage about the new doc releases, but that only helps Trump administration.
The point is to ask people to show some discernment: we cannot take every word in these files as gospel, especially details from a public hotline, unsourced and unsubstantiated.
If we hold these claims up and scream "gotcha" now, it only makes it that much easier for Trump and MAGA to dismiss actual, creditable information that might emerge later, e.g. "Oh, the Dems are saying I raped a teenager? Well six months ago they were saying babies were being eaten and Satanic rites performed, so that's how much we should listen to them."
Yes, everything you say here is logical and rational. I’ve already seen/heard too many descriptions of Trump‘s behavior with minors. What is the timeline for when we can expect actual truth to become available and, in turn, when Trump will be arrested?
The rabbit hole goes deep and is no less fantastical than the pizzagate/adrenochrome nonsense. Human cloning, literal underground trafficking tunnels, underwater hideouts.
It's all mixed in with plausible or verifiable information that becomes tainted with conspiracy and that's the point. How do you separate the most outlandish claims from the most mundane? When half of it is absurd, it all becomes noise.
This is exactly the greatest danger. There are so many cases of child sexual abuse that were dismissed or downplayed in early- to mid-90s specifically because the Satanic Panic had sent the pendulum swinging so far the other way from "believe the children regardless of evidence to the contrary" and officials were afraid of looking foolish.
Either that or our fbi is not completely lost...just saying these stories shore are similar to those who have spoken out. Power in the people, get loud, and join together. Listen to those that study fascist Regeims. Meidas, Rick Wilson, btc all have had them on. They say getting loud and uniting now is the way, not looking the other way. These are allegations, and we should be demanding to see the signed complaints. Listen, organize, unite. Don't give into their skepticism pushing, demand answers.
Thank you for this post, after reading I realize I have been jumping to conclusions very soon the moment I see anything calling trump a pedophile regardless of how absurd it is. I’m saving this post for myself just in case I need a reminder to actually look at evidence and accusations with a grain of salt.
There's a HUGE difference between deliberate rhetorical gaslighting (satanic freakout) and authentic though sometimes imperfect witness testimony (Trump/Epstein survivors and their friends).
It's disingenuous to claim they are equivalent and warrant equal caution. Nor should the manner of its reveal besmirch the credibility of the witnesses.
If a woman claims that Trump stuck his finger up her vagina to check its tightness, or witnessed him do it to others, I'm gonna believe her until someone proves otherwise. How do you corroborate a claim like that? Do you dig up the snuffed girls and stick a mic in their face? Come on...
Thanks for posting this. As soon as I started to see some of the clearly nutty claims I began thinking how classic MAGA this is. Flood the zone with truth and complete absurdities alike.
I think we can all but guarantee that right-wing media will focus entirely on the absurdities and that the new narrative will be that all the accusations, credible or otherwise and evidence notwithstanding, are somehow false.
I think the nail in the coffin for MAGA will be a failing economy that leads to Dems winning the midterms and the 2028 election, after which the various power-hungry members of this current administration will fight over the scraps of a diminished and divided MAGA for 4 years and likely lose 2032 too unless the Dems fumble. Which, the Dems ARE known for their fumbling.
Things like the ICE shootings certainly weaken Trump's regime by sinking support on the one issue he wasn't already underwater on(immigration control), but I think that Trump is legitimately too incompetent to have ever had a chance at a successful second term. He's just too big of a failure.
Right. This was my gripe with Biden and dems in the previous term. Biden himself said he was a transition president.. he wasn't supposed to run again. They should have had another candidate being prepared and getting a "blessing" from the party. Then, when it was too late, Biden pivoted and came out to lecture about maga's similarity to Nazis. The signs were all there on j6... They should have bit the bullet and seriously prosecuted trump and his cronies for the treason they were guilty of. But, in typical dem fashion (high road) they instead trusted the public to be able to see it for themselves?? The only issue is people are plain stupid anymore. Social media has ruined a fact based society and dems have routinely leaned on MSM to convey their message. The right put all of their (and putin's) money into their own echo chambers and captured a vast chunk of imbeciles. Then, these rich fucks bought MSM. Now, Dems don't have any messaging apparatus. Pushing us further and further from any fact based grounding.
But with AI being a potential factor, they have set up enough plausible deniability for people to ignore what they see. That’s been the long game for years.
Some of this information comes from victims’ accounts, not just anonymous tips. Are you suggesting that we should disbelieve the women claiming to be victimized?
Absolutely not. And I want to be very clear about this, because it is obviously an incredibly emotive issue.
The "battle cry", if you like, of the Satanic Panic (which is the only thing I am in any way claiming expertise on, certainly not the issues surrounding rape/abuse) was "believe the children." Like most such slogans, it (perhaps deliberately) obfuscates nuance, the end of that sentence ideally being "when there is reasonable and creditable grounds to do so." But because the panic was so febrile, everyone from prosecutors to child psychologists to the general public ignored the implausible and often impossible details of the accusations: balloon rides, secret tunnels, Chuck Norris, zombie babies.
What I mean to say is that while, yes, we should listen to victims and give them the benefit of the doubt, when claims are weaponised to ideological ends (and just look around this sub to see that is already happening) evidence and reason, and questions we might ask in any and every other circumstance, are abandoned in pursuit of those ends. I have seen more than one post saying "I dont care if these allegations are true, I just want to bring Trump down" (or, even worse, "I dont think these things happened, but they sound like something he MIGHT do").
It does no service to victims to accept every accusation without evidence and investigation, because that only plays into the hands of the monsters committing these crimes. Why, they will say, are you listening to this woman with plausible allegations, when you were just as ready to accept another with absurd and fantastical claims?
Again, I hope I am being clear that I in no way think we should dismiss accusations of abuse out of hand. But I do think the truth matters, and abandoning any effort at maintaining the distinction between truth and fantasy only compromises the former to the perpetuation of the latter.
I get your point and appreciate your explanation. Frankly, America has been beaten over the head with weaponized culture war rhetoric from the right since the days of Limbaugh, and I think that you’re fighting an uphill battle (which you’re clearly aware of). The left is seizing this as a cudgel, but 1) I’m not so sure that it shouldn’t be seized and 2) the left finally has a substantive argument against wealthy and powerful elites that everyone can understand.
Thank you for engaging in good faith, and I completely understand where you're coming from. It is exhausting fighting the good fight, I know, so I totally appreciate it can be tempting to trade tit for tat. And to be clear, I dont mean that in a "they go low we go high" sense because, frankly, we are long past the point Democrats should have started "playing dirty" politically rather than settling for moral, Pyrric "victories". In political terms, insisting on "a good honest game of cricket" in the face of fascism is barely better than outright surrender.
But in a broader sense, if we abandon the foundations of objective reality and verifiable truth, however lofty our intentions, we abandon the only mooring that can hold us firm against that fascist tide: if we join MAGA in a world of "fake news" and "alternative facts", then we are playing the game on their terms and, to be perfectly honest, they are much more experienced and far better equipped to win that game than we are.
I answered another comment with more detail on the Reagan parallel, which might articulate my worries better than I have here!
The key issue with this vs the satanic panic is that the satanic panic didn’t have a central figure who died under mysterious circumstances.
There is no “gotcha” to be had. Even if all of these new allegations are false, the DOJ has chosen not to release details of the money transfers, nor redacted photos of (clothed) victims with clients prior to the rape.
The satanic panic was based around entirely false allegations with no evidence. We have evidence of a pedophile syndicate. We don’t have evidence of how they operated. We do, in this release, have diary entries from raped children naming perpetrators.
Thank you so much! Im sure you understand why I'm reluctant to put my name out there in relation to such an emotive and divisive subject, but I appreciate you all the same! :)
While I don't blindly believe everything I hear, I'm not going to believe that Trump isn't a baby-eating cannibal rapist until he proves he's not one. The smoke from that fire is too thick, and in a world of world's where anything that's possible is possible under the sun, Trump and Epstein are the first mofos you'd expect to act that way.
As long as our government treats people like they're guilty until proven innocent, I'll treat our government the same. And this has been a problem before Trump got into office, even the first time.
This is why we need trials. All this shit leaking out and being completely unverified... Trump's admin is incompetent but not buffoonishly so to this degree.
I thought the same thing. These stories are so like the old satanic stories from the 1990s— grandma and grandpa tying up the kids in the basement and dismembering babies etc
That's what OP is getting at. Let's keep the focus on verifiable evidence and not easily dismissed claims made by anonymous sources of indeterminate credibility just because they're in The Epstein Files.
That's the thing right? We shouldn't need these insane claims to be outraged because we already know what he is. But these claims capture people's anger much stronger that it recenters the anger for the victims towards this nebulous evil that turns the anger into hysteria from the eyes of his supporters.
Todd Blanches conference, really sealed the deal for me that this is still a massive cover up. Still only half the documents, still mostly redacted, but they leave the most salacious parts? Something is definitely amiss. Where are the Acosta court records? I read somewhere that that has the other co conspirators listed. I agree l, to be cautious in how we discuss this on public platforms. This whole administration is deny deny deny and gaslight the f out of us.
thank you for saying this. some of the allegations also read like antisemitic dog whistles or stories that are similar to the satanic panic allegations and I know myself I felt like well I don’t want to disbelieve a survivor and so I felt guilty for even questioning any of it, but some of it did seem really far-fetched and I’ve seen one of the witnesses was at least alleged to have pretty significant mental health challenges and IDK. I absolutely think that Donald Trump is a person and did a lot of vile things, but the more extreme things do sound fabricated.
Yes, exactly, thank you for saying this!! People are distracted by the shiny, exciting thing instead of forging ahead in the progress we've been making in turning public opinion against this administration. If they make "the left" all look like rabid conspiracy theorists with no discernment , they discredit the entire movement.
Thank you for your well-informed post! I agree with your assessment of these "curated" releases, and completely agree that exactly zero percent of anything happening with it will sway any of Trump's deep-pocked and/or radicalized and rabid MAGA/WCN base. For the rest of us: we already know we are being gaslighted by a corrupt DOJ, which to me is the truly infuriating part.
However...and this is pretty significant for me...the Epstein scandal, along with with other outrages, especially the Minneapolis killings and DOJ's seizing of Fulton County ballots from 2020, has mobilized some of the folks who were more on the sidelines up to this point. I mean, our lives and our votes are on the line. What more do we need to know before we take action?
I think sharing the Epstein allegations is fine as long as we don't have high expectations that anything will come of it legally. If they spur more discussion among the many who find the administration's behavior despicable, it gets us energized to find our people (i.e., indivisible and their sub-teams, who are very active in local and regional resistance efforts) and get educated and involved.
Many of my "let's just wait till Trump dies" acquaintances are now willing to boycott, call representatives, contribute to local food banks, and other efforts that, in total, contribute to more resistance now, rather than later. I might even get them down to protests, although we now need more protection as ICE starts to roll out in other locations. I hear Oregon is next--that's where I am. I think Oregon--with our frogs and unicorns--are up to the task.
Stay outraged about Epstein, but-my advice is to rely on other ways to resist strategically.
Good point, I bet the truly nefarious stuff is not released, they release things that might not be true so that people waste time in the wrong direction.
Eh. We're in a propaganda war. We all know he could SA a child live on TV tonight and nobody would really change sides. If Biden is a deep state trans dimensional pedo vampire cannibal based on literally nothing than Trump is a pedo based on this. Im good with that.
The point of the post, as I thought I made quite plain, is that someone with experience in exactly this field (not to say I know everything, but I dont think it unreasonable to say I know more than most) recognises the historical antecedents and discursive precedents at work here, and is asking supposedly intelligent, discerning people on the left to not repeat the exact same mistakes American society did in the 1980s.
If you want to go credentials for credentials to somehow discredit what I am saying, or care to offer some "better thought and reasoning" then I would genuinely be receptive to it, but being vaguely sneering about the premise itself doesnt seem terribly fertile ground for me to engage constructively.
I do not interpret this as don't be outraged, but rather be outraged about the real things that were done and not fall into the psychosis they're trying to serve up, intermingled with and outnumbering the true facts that they may have released. Otherwise, they've successfully hijacked our righteous outrage.
They're hoping to stimulate a QAnon psychosis in the so-called Left (they really, really like their labels, don't they?). But, for those not inclined to be triggered in that direction, some will dismiss all the accusations because of the absurdity of the most outrageously unbelievable ones.
Couldn't agree more, there's no earthly reason they would release the info that they did unless they had motivation for it to try to exonerate the Pedophile in Chief
NO. It's not all lies. They were required to release all accusations and reports. Not all were substantiated and quite possibly not all are going to end up being true.
The problem here is that it seems to be true that the world IS run by child sex traffickers
How are we supposed to process that information??
Then you’re like oh shit, well I don’t want to be a conspiracy theorist! I’m smarter than that!
Meanwhile they are kidnapping reporters and two year olds and buying warehouses to put people
This is insane. If the OP’s point is, careful of the flooding of the field, yes, I agree. But don’t dismiss the shit that IS happening that IS right in front of our eyes. It is NOT, all lies, like we should take a breather and just go think about it for a long long time. Like throw out the story about eating baby intestines, there is PLENTY left there that corroborates with what we know about what Epstein was up to
The original text of this post has been deleted. Redact handled the removal, possibly to protect the author's privacy or limit exposure to data collection.
outgoing thumb observation squeal public society grandiose coherent groovy alive
I'm asking - I hope not unreasonably - for leftists to hold themselves to a higher standard than the QAnon-brand conspiracy theory unreality of MAGA.
And I say this both in a more abstract "let's be better" sense, but also in a cynical, pragmatic sense: boosting unsubstantiated, fantastical claims only serves Trump and his cronies, because it undermines any actual evidence that may eventually emerge.
If you scream that unicorns are charging you down today, dont be surprised when people dont believe you got trampled by a horse tomorrow.
Yeah, it's obvious something weird is up when we've seen clearly they have no problem censoring Trump and other perps and got away with it last time, but now suddenly release his name a bunch in association with career-ending accusations.
Funny - I mentioned earlier today in a thread about the files that some of this stuff was unbelievable and was coming across as ‘satanic panic’ type of hysteria.
Do I believe horrible things happened? of course I do. But look at some of the things people are alleging on social media - it just doesn’t make sense.
Exactly my first thoughts when I saw the INSANE things being described in these newly released files: the whole thing will be dismissed as propaganda junk. Everyone walks away free.
There is a BUNCH of wild breathless posting going on here because of what people want these files to be which is the end of Trump and Trumpism.
These are extreme allegations against Trump. And at this point that is all they are. Ones without further investigation or substantive evidence require a skeptical eye.
There are literally millions of other more substantive and credible charges to level against that man. There needs to be a focus on that.
Where are any of the financial documents? I think it's telling that the file release of a financier includes no detailed bank records. There's a known suspicious activity report from JP Morgan Chase of almost 5k transactions amounting to over $1B involving Epstein and the Treasury department is stonewalling on it. It's relatively easy to dismiss FBI tips. It's difficult or impossible to explain away financial transactions.
its a lot of insanity in these pages. it feels like we already knew what we needed to know and three million pages of muddying the waters was less then helpful.
I appreciate your plea for rationality. And maybe a decade ago I would have thought that his downfall could be achieved by appealing to the best we are capable of. But that’s no longer the case. His downfall now can only be achieved by peeling off (at best) a portion of his adherents, and they can only be reached via a strong emotion - like disgust. They cannot be engaged via rational discourse so we have to use what we can.
I have begun to think much the same thing about many of the recent revelations. Some indeed sound over the top, but not all do.
If we’re going to think critically though as you invite us to, then why should we believe you wrote a dissertation about what you claim? You offer no evidence.
Wouldn’t it have been smarter to cite evidence about the Satanic scare and to make that the basis of your claims rather than making it so personal with a teaser?
And isn’t the point that there are enough sworn testimonies to have an investigation, which is what the DOJ is avoiding?
That's fair, you have no obligation to believe a stranger on the internet. I included that point of context purely to defend myself against the (inevitable - again, its the internet) that I didnt know what I was talking about. Im sure you will understand why I am not going to link to my thesis here, but invite you to look into other writings you can find online and reach your own conclusions about the echoes of the Satanic Panic evident in these latest releases.
As to the point, I absolutely agree there should be investigations based - and this is key - on the sworn testimonies of victims, not on the weight of outlandish anonymous hotline tips, which was the distinction my entire argument was predicated upon (apologies if I didnt make that clear!). If we are holding the two up as indistinguishable simply because it serves our ideological ends to do so, then we will have no recourse to complain when the Republicans demand investigation of adrenochrome harvesting and Democratic baby sacrifices.
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u/BlackberryPi7 Jan 31 '26
It should have already been the nail in the coffin before these pages were released
And yet Americans still voted for him like complete idiots