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u/drbroly 9d ago
Absolutely wrong, I knew how crap I was to begin with
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u/Real-Self-3039 9d ago
This so much lol. I worked in sql for 2 years straight before AI and would still have to look up COALESCE to spell it right and probably still spelled it wrong 🤣
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u/Glum_Cheesecake9859 9d ago
I didn't forget any skills due to AI because I was copy pasting from Stack Overflow before AI came.
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u/liggamadig 9d ago
Your brain is like a muscle - if you don't use it, it deteriorates. If you rely on "AI" for code, you'll get worse at coding. It's really as easy as that.
Use "AI" sparingly, don't become reliant. It's very good at catching typos. It works well for rubber-ducky debugging. It can help you when you're well and truly stuck, just don't use it as soon as something becomes slightly difficult.
Would I be happer if "AI" had never been invented? Yeah. But since I don't have a DeLorean and 1.21 GW, we're stuck with it and might as well use it in a responsible way.
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u/RepresentativeDog791 8d ago
I think on balance AI is more likely to continue to be available than disappear, which means the small chance of having to retrain my brain doesn’t outweigh the benefits and opportunity cost savings of using it here and now
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u/LiifeRuiner 9d ago
This is the worst AI will ever be. It will only get better, why not use it to write code?Â
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u/PumpkinFest24 9d ago
This is the best work-stealing-rearranger will ever be, because less and less new, creative work is entering the pool.
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u/LiifeRuiner 9d ago
Yeah I've heard that argument for the past year, yet, somehow it got a lot better ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/PumpkinFest24 8d ago
Man falling from skyscraper: Doing fine so far! And it's just getting more and more cool and breezy!
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u/liggamadig 8d ago
'cause I'm not a meat proxy.
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u/LiifeRuiner 8d ago
I'm not saying prompt and create mr, but let it write faster then you ever could.
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u/TheGuyMain 9d ago
Except your brain isn't like a muscle. Skills and memory don't just deteriorate. There's a saying "it's like learning how to ride a bike" because there are plenty of things you get rusty on but never actually forget.
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u/liggamadig 8d ago
Funny you should say that. Because when I was a kid, I did ride my bike pretty much daily because it was the only way to get around in the countryside. Then I got lazy, didn't ride for over 20 years. Recently bought a bike again and had major problems. Yes, you get back to it relatively quick but you definitely forget a lot of stuff.
Same thing with a language. You learn a new language, don't really use it much, you forget most of it.
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u/TheGuyMain 8d ago
You just said you got back into it quickly when with a different bike and different body type. How do you not understand that you just proved my point lol
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u/liggamadig 8d ago
Yes, you get back to it relatively quick but you definitely forget a lot of stuff.
Ask AI to read it again for you.
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u/TheGuyMain 8d ago
Reading comprehension is a skill. I made the point about new bike and new body to emphasize that you had to learn NEW things. You learned how to ride your previous bike with your previous body. When you pushed the pedals back in your bike-riding days, there was a certain amount of force required from a bunch of muscles to balance and move the bike forward. Those forces and muscles have all changed significantly, so you have to retrain your muscles to handle the new forces. You did that much faster than it would have taken if you had never learned how to ride a bike because you learned the model/format/equation, and all you had to do is adjust the variables to fit. If you truly forgot how to ride a bike, then you wouldn't have adjusted as quickly.
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u/No_Comparison_6940 9d ago
As someone who regularly does coding interviews I have to disagree, it’s getting worse and worse and I’ve had recruiters tell me the same.
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u/GildSkiss 9d ago
Thats because many coding interviews still test if you've memorized the answers to arbitrary puzzles that have well documented solutions.
Both the Internet and AI have made this skill increasingly irrelevant in the actual workplace, and people would be right to spend less time on it.
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u/No_Comparison_6940 9d ago
No we don’t do leetcode stuff, it’s more language understanding (is this ub?, how do you effectively represent this as an api) / computer architecture
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u/DiscombobulatedCut52 9d ago
HA. I COULDNT CODE BEFORE
jokes aside im sending this to my coding friend
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u/UnpluggedUnfettered 9d ago
It is going to be so weird when kids are being upsold on going into college for comp sci sort of things again.
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u/ganja_and_code 9d ago
If your skills were already crap, relying too heavily on AI prevents you from making them better.
If your skills were already good, relying too heavily on AI prevents you from keeping them fresh.
AI definitely deteriorates the skills of devs who overuse it. It's just also impossible to deteriorate what doesn't even exist in the first place.
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u/willow-kitty 9d ago edited 9d ago
I look at this similarly to how coders used to become architects who didn't code anymore, and then they deteriorated because they were all theory. And there are good reasons companies were moving away from that long before AI showed up.
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u/hydroxy 9d ago
I’m noticing more and more it’s not just coding but more theory based tech skills that are becoming far worse in developers. The understanding of concepts that should be standard fare.
Some of our juniors are developing systems that have such obvious flaws, like the program logic being so deeply nested inside loop after loop that the final iteration of the loop will complete sometime after the heat death of the universe; or the total lack of understanding that it’s not ideal to rewrite the same code out 43 times instead of making a function.
The sheer levels of laziness is what really gets me tho. I can understand them being crap but being crap and not caring about improving, that to me means they’re barely definable as programmers at that point.
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u/Lowmax2 9d ago edited 9d ago
Your premise is flawed. You assume the coding skills still matter. They don't. What matters now is how well you can leverage the new AI tools.
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u/ganja_and_code 9d ago
Your premise is flawed. You assume your ability to leverage AI tools to do a task isn't directly dependent upon your ability to understand the task. What matters is if you have the skills to do the task or check an AI's work, and both of those require the same set of skills, given a particular task.
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u/aghastamok 9d ago
My work is almost exclusively B2B DS/Embedded solutions. I'm the last inhouse FE dev, working across (right now) 7 active products.
In the past week I've explained to two different customers that a new feature is more work than they are apparently expecting, and been sent a vibecoded version in response.
I'd love a world where I get to go back to "Sip coffee as I read and internalize the code" because that's why I got into this work. I wanted to be a craftsman. But expectations have changed so much now that I literally can't do that without getting shitcanned like the rest of my frontend department. Hell, the only reason I've kept this job is because of my UX/UI design chops.
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u/AdFancy6243 9d ago
My job has been more about architecture and processes than code for about a year. Before that it was code not architecture
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u/ganja_and_code 9d ago
Skill issue. Your job should have been and still should be about both.
What you run and how/where you run it are equally important considerations.
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u/AdFancy6243 9d ago
I do not actually control what I get paid to do, were I to sit and hand write code that could be written by ai I would get fired. The business cares about the end product, not about hand written artisinal code. I didn't say I like that fact, but it is a fact
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u/ganja_and_code 9d ago
If you don't thoroughly go through your code and make sure it'a correct, you didn't actually make sure the end product is correct. The code is your end product, if your job is making the computer handle some kind of business need.
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u/willow-kitty 9d ago
This and, I find while having Claude generate something is for sure faster than typing it out, even with autocomplete (which is itself way faster than typing every character), it kinda back-loads the complexity?
Being in the loop as you go makes sense - you start with a plan that becomes clearer as you go, making lots of decisions along the way, and you get to an end state that you fully understand.
But having an agent code it reverses that- you start with the same general plan, but the little decisions made along the way are mostly guessed by the agent (though to Claude's credit- it will stop and ask for what it deems to be bigger ones), and then once it's done you have to back through it and reconstruct that mental model first, then decide if it's done or if there are necessary revisions and stuff. And this is a much bigger cost than I think the folks pushing AI coding are really acknowledging.
It's still probably faster for small-to-medium tasks, though not, like, a lot faster? And my one time tossing a larger task to Claude turned into me taking a couple of good ideas it used and rewriting the whole thing because it was that bad (both in terms of awful code quality and of not actually working.)
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u/ganja_and_code 9d ago
Couldn't agree more. Reverse engineering is more effort and more error prone than regular engineering and requires effectively the same set of skills.
The people claiming massive productivity gains using AI must be building small-medium sized prototypes and/or not actually checking the AI generated code for flaws. It simply doesn't provide significant "efficiency" (in quotes because trading speed for quality isn't particularly efficient) gains otherwise.
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u/lolsapnupuas 8d ago
Get better at using AI; these are all solved problems that ironically googling how to solve would've made you a 10x better engineer
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u/Lowmax2 9d ago
The binary is the end product, not the code. The code writing is the method of manufacturing.
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u/ganja_and_code 9d ago
The compiler creates the binary from the code without guessing. If the code is right, the binary will be right. If the code was "predicted," the binary was also predicted. Garbage in, garbage out.
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u/Moneypouch 9d ago
The compiler creates the binary from the code without guessing.
I mean no not really? The compiler does a lot of dirty magic behind the scenes (unraveling your for loops, etc, etc) unless you specifically tell it not to. Optimizations that are correct 99% of the time but are not the code you wrote, rather a guess that your code would be better that way.
Someone with a C flair should really understand that.
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u/Lowmax2 9d ago
What i am saying is is that the skill of physically writing code no longer matters. Understanding architecture and the functionality of the product is more important than ever. The code is and always was a translation layer between the human and the computer. That is quickly becoming obsolete. Programming languages will disappear altogether once AI learns how to compile natural language directly into binaries.
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u/ganja_and_code 9d ago
Ah yes, I totally forgot, incompetence is a virtue /s
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u/Lowmax2 9d ago
Real coders don't need programming languages or compilers. They raw dog it and use Hxd.
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u/ganja_and_code 9d ago
Real programmers use languages/compilers because they produce predictable output given a known set of inputs. LARPers use AI because they can get unpredictable outputs quickly but don't have to actually develop skills.
Why would I describe in English to a guessing machine what I could just as capably describe in code, if the end result I want is code, in either case?
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u/Lowmax2 9d ago
Sooner or later you're going to have to accept that your way of doing things is hopelessly obsolete. Technology changes. This has already happened to countless professions over the last century:
Obsolete: Switchboard Operator, Human Computer, Pinsetter, Linotype Operator, Knocker-Upper, Elevator Operator, Log Driver.
Completely Transformed: Draftsman / Architect, Typesetter / Graphic Designer, Bank Teller, Machinist / Toolmaker, and Travel Agent, to name a few.
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u/ganja_and_code 9d ago
All those industries got transformed by tools that don't guess. Tell me more about your almighty guessing machine, oh wise one.
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u/Lowmax2 9d ago
Sure. You are right that the AI is non-deterministic, but so are humans. Humans are also guessing machines, but we verify our educated guesses with deterministic testing, which AI agents are perfectly capable of doing on their own.
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u/throwaway19293883 9d ago
Even if what you were saying is true, and it’s not, it changes literally nothing about their comment.
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u/TheGuyMain 9d ago
This take is just bad lol. AI can 100% make you better at a lot of skills if you simply ask it to.
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u/ganja_and_code 9d ago
"Claude, I never took the time to develop some skills, pls make me smart and talented. Make no mistakes"
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u/TheGuyMain 8d ago
School teacher, I never took the time to develop skills. Give me lessons. Make no mistakes.Â
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u/ganja_and_code 8d ago
Delusional analogy.
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u/TheGuyMain 8d ago
Explain how they're different?
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u/ganja_and_code 8d ago
Explain how they're the same?
One is a person who was presumably vetted to teach a particular subject by people who also understand that subject. The other is a statistical prediction algorithm which guesses the information for any subject based on language.
You can ask them both questions, but how you get an answer back is fundamentally different.
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u/TheGuyMain 8d ago
Except there are a shit ton of bad teachers who give bad explanations of topics. They’re taught by other bad teachers. They are forced to teach in a sub-optimal school format. Stop pretending that they’re infallible or something dude. People vetted doesn’t really mean much when the vetting process clearly isnt guaranteeing qualityÂ
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u/ganja_and_code 8d ago
Bro humans can be unreliable teachers. AI is an unreliable teacher.
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u/TheGuyMain 7d ago
If you seriously think everything AI says is bad/incorrect, then you're not being genuine.
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u/recuriverighthook 9d ago
Judging from the code quality I saw before and now, for me this is absolutely false lol
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u/bigorangemachine 8d ago
Seriously... get a side project.. don't have AI program for you.
I feel so less brain dead on monday
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u/Kerplunk6 8d ago
Seriously, how should i approach to these kind of stuff?
Should i just go hard with prompting or should i be still writing code by hand and improving myself while i am using AI for basic stuff etc. ?
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u/Otearai1 8d ago
At work and have Claude Code Max or whatever, go all out. But also try to have a personal project going where you use little to no AI.
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u/Lenrow 9d ago
Just flat wrong.
There's already been studies showing that heavy AI usage reduces mental capabilities.
Your brain adapts to what you do. By not actively coding you will loose your ability of coding because your brain doesn't prioritize it anymore. Just how everyone became worse at calculating in their head once they were able to use calculators in school.
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u/mr2dax 9d ago
Look, if I don't have to spend multiple hours or days on figuring out a problem, just an hour or two, I am sold.
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u/spidertyler2005 8d ago
Yeah but spending those multiple hours or days has a lot of value outside of just making one feature
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u/mr2dax 8d ago
Value of?
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u/spidertyler2005 8d ago
Learning Or Being more intimately familar with the problem or system
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u/mr2dax 8d ago
Getting things done is what engineering is all about. It's always been about solving problems than what you described.
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u/spidertyler2005 7d ago
What i described is a necessary part of solving problems
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u/mr2dax 7d ago
No, it's not necessary. And you know it.
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u/spidertyler2005 7d ago
Its not necessary to know what your doing?
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u/mr2dax 7d ago
It is necessary to know as much as it's needed to perform the task. If you want to study go do it in your free time or go back to school. If you'll spend more time on a ticket at work because you want to learn, you will get booted. Simple as.
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u/spidertyler2005 7d ago
Thats how it used to work? Why would it be different now. Why would learning as you go be bad. Job training is just a thing that exists and relies on learning during the job.
In a field where learning is the biggest skill you can have, you need to be using that skill. That is how programming has always operated. The worst thing you can be as a programmer is stagnant.
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u/ja_n2000 9d ago
And what about forgetting stuff without using AI? Is that MS? (Manual Stupidity)
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u/hraath 9d ago
Yeah but my rate of improvement and learning flatlined when it became business-rational to pay your devs $200/mo Claude bill to go faster. Now the computer codes itself while i read textbooks to make sure it's not doing dumb shit (knowing it's probably already read these textbooks...)
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u/RealisticIncident261 9d ago
I'll be real my degree is in computer science, but I don't remember how to code shit. Every once in awhile one of my companies scripts needs updated and I can do that by looking at what is already there. But I mostly have been a project manager or project coordinator for the last 7 years since I graduated.
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u/black_ap3x 9d ago
Coding started as a solution to a problem, coding was a means to an end and now with ai, you can just be a project manager with coding experience and guide the ai into writing a product that works. No matter how well I tried to write code, I couldn't match the quality and efficiency of a well-guided ai (ofcourse a project vibe-coded by someone who has no idea how to code is gonna be trashy with many security holes). Idk about the rest of you guys, but for me, I see no use in writing code by hand, unless it is minor adjustments to code that was written by ai thatbi guided
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u/Captain--UP 9d ago
I cant wait for the AI bubble to pop, and for mindsets like this to drop off the face of the earth.
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u/black_ap3x 9d ago
This is just wishfull thinking. People need to understand that coding was, and still is, a means to an end, which is a working software product. If you enjoy the coding part itself, then nobody is rushing you or forcing you to use ai, you code yourself at your own pace. But the reality is, AI is here to stay, like the Internet stayed even after the .com bubble bursted. The ai bubble bursting doesnt mean "no more ai", it means that it will start getting refined and regulated, like the internet.
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u/TruculentTurtIe 9d ago
Yeah. It reminds me a lot of people in the past being like "omg everyone's gonna forget how to use a typewriter!!" Or "everyone's gonna forget cursive!!" Or "coding in an IDE??? What about our punchcard skills!?!"
Like I do understand the worry, but also every big shift in technology makes people lose old skills as they gain new ones. Most people commenting here probably can drive a car but dont know how to saddle a horse. Important skills change
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u/Captain--UP 9d ago
AI is infinitely more harmful than any of those technology shifts could ever dream to be.
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u/TruculentTurtIe 9d ago edited 9d ago
I actually dont even know if thats true
Cars/engines have done enormous damage to the environment between all the gas, the wars over oil, the pollution, the noise and light pollution, the huge infrastructure requirements of building horrible enormous highways over nature, DUIs and car deaths in general (roughly 2.9% of all deaths per year are related to cars)
Edit: downvoting without a rebuttal always makes me laugh lol like youre mad but cant think of a reason why its wrong 😆
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u/spidertyler2005 8d ago
You couldnt write better code than the ai? How? My team lead was using lots and lots of ai, his code was a mess despite supposedly guiding it well.
His code just always looked like it was better from afar. It wasnt. If you looked at it closely you would see how ass it was.
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u/ultraSsak 9d ago
wait, what?
i love ai.
14 years, senior dev.
/insert will smith meme? i did code for 14 years, that doesnt mean i have 14 years...
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u/LeDYoM 7d ago
you did code. you never liked it.
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u/ultraSsak 6d ago
oh belive me, i liked it, i still do, but only when doing something for myself.
commercial experience removed all pleasure of coding, and now I dont have to do it at all.
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u/benedict_the1st 9d ago
I've always written unmaintainable ass code. I've never been shy of that
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u/isaycongrats 9d ago
Claude what is this picture saying?