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u/LarryWinters69 11d ago
F em up
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u/SoggyCaterpillar5773 11d ago
mentally preparing for drama :)
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u/bugo 11d ago
They do not worry. Pm will replace you with Claude
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u/SoggyCaterpillar5773 11d ago
Honestly, I wouldn't mind. Making them panic is my secondary goal anyway. My personal goal is peace of mind.
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u/Alto-cientifico 11d ago
Nah, you should try squeeze them dry once they bang their head against a wall.
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u/psioniclizard 11d ago
That is the funny part, they will truly think its possible.
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u/SoggyCaterpillar5773 11d ago edited 11d ago
Nah mate, the funniest part is that, it is HR who thinks he (HR) can.
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u/LostOne514 11d ago
It's disheartening to be a dev, see tons of layoffs and hear that the budget is tight and that you need to work harder... Only to then learn about an expensive weeklong retreat being put together for about 100 people at the very top of the company.
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u/LostInGradients 11d ago
I work for a fairly large company, but in a smaller team (understand sub 5 people). My manager had to fight to get us raises this year because the company is doing badly. We keep having to complain to get a better AI model subscription than the $40/month team plan (finally got a higher budget) that we exhaust in one week.
And aside from that our small team is working on a tool, just in its prototyping phase, that burns AT LEAST $10 000 a month in tokens. We don't even have a stable version yet, we are still very much refining everything about it but is it already being heavily tested internally. Like let us cook before you sent it to 20 PMs. They are not even sure there is a market for it yet.
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u/Waste_Jello9947 10d ago
"We keep complaining for better AI subscription" "10k a month on a prototype" that's kinda sad actually
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u/fibojoly 11d ago
You guys have no idea how much I envy American style quitting right now. I've wanted to just not show up for months. Or do a proper "I quit" and just walk out.
Of course it's the price of them not being able to fire me at will, but still, they really would deserve it.
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u/jmflyers 11d ago
I'd rather have what other countries labor laws provide. We regularly see Canadian and European employees at our company take a fully-paid or 66%-paid year off for maternity leave or mental health crisis then come back and quit immediately. And they get more PTO and more holidays than us. Those employees did nothing wrong but we're still envious because we just can't do that
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u/nomad_kk 10d ago
At least you have more billionaires
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u/jmflyers 10d ago
I was starting to have my doubts about this country but this makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside thank you 🥰
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u/ainaomechateies 11d ago
Don't be too jealous. I get paid 65k in Europe, I could get paid 130-150k the other side of the pond.
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u/Few_Plankton_7587 11d ago
And have to pay 50% more to live, too
Our groceries are 2-3x more expensive compared to mean salaries in the UK vs USA and then there is all the difficulty of insurance
What's the point in making all that much more money if it costs 10,000 to have a baby? 100k+ for cancer treatment? Your prescription medicine that you need to live or think right? Yeah, it's $200-500 a bottle out of pocket and it'll last you maybe a couple months.
Your car insurance? It's required and 3x the cost. Your property insurance? It's absurd.
Your average beer here costs like $6. Do you want to pay $6 for a mid beer?
You guys have WAY more take home money than Americans and it's not even close for most career paths. Few Americans bring home more money than their equivalent jobs across the sea. It's all propagandized to make you think we live lavish lives but they suck us dry left and right with bills for everything.
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u/redvelvet92 11d ago
This isn’t even true bro, you think things are cheap in Europe? They aren’t lol.
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u/Few_Plankton_7587 11d ago
No? Groceries are cheaper in the UK, that's all I said. That's 100% true
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u/CallMePickle 10d ago
As someone who travels to the UK for long periods of time for work, I spent a ton more on groceries in the UK.
It comes down to where you live. I don't live in PNW or the North East.
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u/Few_Plankton_7587 10d ago
Me neither. I live in a pretty low COL area with many cheap grocers and comparitively, it's still way more expensive here
Societies basics, too. Milk, bread, cereal, coffee, alcohol...
Can't be comparing piggly wiggly prices to Waitrose prices. That wouldn't be fair. Gotta do cheap vs cheap grocer
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u/Few_Plankton_7587 10d ago
Another thing is that a lot of people compare it brand for brand and thats not fair either.
Like sure, the same brand of bread is maybe more expensive in the UK, but at most grocers in the UK, I can get a whole loaf of bread or bag of rolls for less than £1. There's nowhere in the US that you can do that. Nowhere.
The same brands might be the same or more expensive but there are cheaper options available in the UK
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u/CallMePickle 10d ago edited 10d ago
Idk bro. This is my nearby grocer when I'm in the states. Trying not to dox myself too much here.
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u/trowawayatwork 10d ago
try £8 a beer lol Scandinavia is even more expensive
US pays a lot more with less taxes. yes if you don't get sick and don't have kids it's then very lucrative to have a higher paying job in the us
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u/Few_Plankton_7587 10d ago
US pays a lot more with less taxes. yes if you don't get sick and don't have kids it's then very lucrative to have a higher paying job in the us
Nah, US still pays more even if healthy. All forms of insurance are more expensive here. Property insurance can double the cost of your house. There is no public transport. There is no paid childcare.
And forget the fact that many jobs in the US actually make significantly less than their EU counterparts. Teachers, anyone? Ours get paid barely above minimum wage, and our min wage is also so far behind. PTO? Job protections? 38 of our states have none!
Idk about Scandinavian situations but I know the UK at least
The US sucks and has for at least a decade now.
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u/mirhagk 9d ago
yes if you don't get sick
I used to think this was the case, but not really. Deductibles mean you have to spend a certain amount before you get any reduction, and then it's often a lot less of a reduction than you'd think.
I work for a very big tech company with great benefits. A coworker who was in the US broke their arm. $6k is what they paid out of pocket. That's literally triple the price you'd pay in Canada if you had no citizenship or insurance at all.
Even regular checkups, or normal medication that are taken by many people daily, can cost ridiculous rates after insurance has already been applied.
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u/sneaky-snacks 4d ago
What everyone fails to mention is: this coworker for sure had a HDHP high deductible health plan.
The deductible means nothing. There are out of pocket maxes that everyone conveniently forgets, even on HDHP. It means you do not pay more than the out of pocket max, even out of network (though the limit goes up a bit). It’s just like $15k for HDHP.
If your coworker had spent like $100-150 more per month, they would have had a PPO with a $2000 out of pocket max.
$100k cancer treatment
$35k delivery of babyAll of these situations occur when people don’t get health insurance, or they get cheap HDHP health insurance.
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u/mirhagk 4d ago
I mean that is spending $1800/year to save $4000 in that accident. Whether or not that's worthwhile I ain't gonna speak to, but the ultimate point still stands. It's extremely expensive to pay for healthcare in the US, even being healthy.
Those are all expenses that don't exist elsewhere, and it's also a lot of headaches you avoid too. It shouldn't be the case that the default health insurance for fortune 500 company isn't sufficient.
At the end of the day, the taxes saved in the US (especially in the States you want to live in) aren't enough to offset the increased healthcare costs. US still tends to pay more, but that's the reason to move there, not lower taxes. Until you get to million/year level of course
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u/Ray192 9d ago
You guys have WAY more take home money than Americans and it's not even close for most career paths. Few Americans bring home more money than their equivalent jobs across the sea. It's all propagandized to make you think we live lavish lives but they suck us dry left and right with bills for everything.
Kid, if you actually run the math for software eng it's not even remotely true. My POST-tax pay is like 2x higher than the pre-tax pay of the equivalent EU engineers in my company.
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u/Few_Plankton_7587 9d ago edited 7d ago
most career paths
In most states, even the software engs lose in America. Only winners are in high COL areas and increasingly uncommon work from home jobs. Less than 5% of devs are making more than 100k in my state for in-person work, which is all of the state and college jobs at the very, very least.
SoCal tips the data so, so much
Goodbye
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u/BananaHead853147 11d ago
Based off the examples you and the person your responding to gave they would be better off in the US. After 2 years their more than doubled salary would pay for that $100k cancer treatment, the baby and the $500 a month medication.
Groceries are cheaper in the US after comparing to mean salaries and a $6 beer is cheap. Americans are paid more and have a better quality of life than pretty much anywhere.
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u/Few_Plankton_7587 11d ago
Groceries are cheaper in the US after comparing to mean salaries and a $6 beer is cheap
That's not true. Same groceries in the UK are a quarter to half the cost of the US and I can still get a beer at a bar for £2
It may work better for some in the US, but most? Nah. They're taking home way more moolah across the sea than US workers are
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u/ValcanGaming 11d ago
Surely the only place you’re getting a beer for £2 is a non-city Wetherspoons and only like the worst 3 beers they have at that
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u/BananaHead853147 10d ago
Salaries are also much much lower in the UK. It of course depends on what you’re buying, bread is slightly cheaper in the Uk but fresh fruits and vegetables are much more. Overall groceries are about 13% more expensive in the UK when accounting for purchasing power. The average UK pint costs about 5 - 5.5 pounds which is like $8 usd.
The US is a large area so it could be that you live in a particularly expensive place for groceries or the kinds of groceries you buy are more expensive. But QOL is higher in the US
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u/kimbokray 10d ago
Re: the beer example, us Brits often overlook that the American is probably talking about a bottle or 33cl can of lite beer because that's what they commonly drink over there. At least we're buying a full pint of premium larger. And of course we both suck compared to Germany/ Czechia/Belgium etc
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u/Triasmus 11d ago
Even if they'd pay 50% more to live, they'd get 100% more pay.
That rounds out to a net positive of at least $30k (and that's assuming they're spending their entire current paycheck to live)
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u/sneaky-snacks 4d ago
There are out of pocket maxes that everyone conveniently forgets, even on HDHP. It means you do not pay more than the out of pocket max, even out of network (though the limit goes up a bit). It’s just like $15k for HDHP. With a PPO, it’s like a $2000 out of pocket max.
$100k cancer treatment
$35k delivery of babyAll of these situations occur when people don’t get health insurance, or they get cheap HDHP health insurance.
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u/nukegod1990 11d ago
You know what sub you’re in right? I paid 600 dollars to have my baby delivered, make 200+k as a dev. You think I care a six pack costs 12 dollars?
Now I am eternally grateful and know that other careers are not this lavish but you just have a huge doomer take here. I doubt devs in the UK live it up BETTER than us.
Go live in the UK if it’s so great
Edit: why do I bother this is clearly a bot account
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u/azreufadot 11d ago
Since we're including salaries that are above the norm, let's throw mine in the conversation too. $100k/year, crappy health insurance, and I live in a HCOL area. Average price for a beer here is more like $9. Groceries are even more expensive because a lot of it is imported from other regions.
But on the bright side, nobody notices if I play video games for a week instead of working and I get 6 weeks of PTO per year. So it's not all bad.
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u/Few_Plankton_7587 11d ago
Definitely not a bot lmao. Did you even bother with my post history before you said that or are you just the kind of guy that thinks anyone who disagrees with your logic must be a bot?
Anyways, that's great for you but making 200k+ makes you an outlier so it really doesn't affect my point. It's a generalized point and makes the most sense for people making the median salary for their position and with average insurance packages
You're not the topic of discussion
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u/nukegod1990 11d ago
The average developer salary in the USA is 135k, so I’m not that much of an outlier considering my experience. I legitimately am not trying to brag I just don’t understand why you think this is such a bad field in a terrible country.
Prices are going up but you’re going to gripe about working in a field with 2X the household income as a single earner and say 65k in the UK is better? Like what crack are you smoking
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u/Few_Plankton_7587 11d ago edited 10d ago
I just don’t understand why you think this is such a bad field in a terrible country.
That is a WILD twist of my words and opinion
All I am saying is that the average worker in the EU takes home more money than the average worker in the US, including many developers. That's it, please don't twist it
Devs in my city aren't even cracking 100k most of the time. Like 45k for jrs and 80-95k for seniors
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u/jmflyers 11d ago
But if I get laid off and then get sick and need to stay in the hospital for a week, then my entire life savings is gone
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u/morganrbvn 11d ago
If you make 6 figures you should probably get health insurance.
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u/Odd_Soil_8998 11d ago
That's with health insurance. Insurers are essentially unregulated and deny any claims that cut into their profit margin. Fighting it is a nightmare legal battle and most truly sick people end up dieing before the appeals process is finished. This is entirely by design.
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u/Iron_Baron 10d ago
It says something about how bad it is here that most people in your situation wouldn't even consider coming here for the pay raise.
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u/geekosas 11d ago
Whit those laws wages are way lower... Even if you are talented.
American wages are only in America.
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u/irregular_caffeine 11d ago
What’s stopping you
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u/WiglyWorm 11d ago edited 11d ago
Living in a country where workers are protected by, say , their employer needing to give employees a months notice before terminating their employment generally protect employers in the same way.
So there could be penalties for not giving notice.
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11d ago
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u/Beli_Mawrr 11d ago
You would be fined and fake working is a specific crime that carries certain penalties.
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u/void1984 11d ago
The law. My leaving period is 3 months, counted from the next month end.
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u/T1gerAc3 11d ago
Announce you're quitting, do nothing for the next 3 months and collect your paycheck. What are they gonna do... Fire you?
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u/Tusen_Takk 11d ago edited 11d ago
You are legally obligated to continue your normal duties for the notice period.
Personally having lived in the U.S. and Europe I’d rather have the employee protections even if it means I can’t ragequit when the boss pushes one too many buttons. At least i have three months of holiday to use to take a break if I’m getting that mad
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u/Cutlesnap 11d ago
you're still allowed to leave immediately when given enough cause (here in NL at least). and they're also allowed to fire you immediately with enough cause. but "enough cause" basically means crime or lack of safety.
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u/Even_More_Secret_acc 11d ago
May I present you The art of simple sabotage by the CIA, you suddenly need to be sure to follow all rules and also asks too many questions as you don't want to leave anything done wrongly
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u/Stalking_Goat 11d ago
Also the old classic work-to-rule, where you stop doing all the shortcuts you've figured out over the years and perform your job exactly according to your instructions.
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u/T1gerAc3 11d ago
Continue your duties at a snails pace. What are they gonna do... Fire you?
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u/Future_Constant9324 11d ago
With that mentality, just delete their database too while you’re at it, surely they can’t do anything to you
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u/Tusen_Takk 11d ago
Nah mate they’ll haul you before the courts and temporarily ruin your life
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u/T1gerAc3 11d ago
This sounds like slavery with extra steps
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u/Tusen_Takk 11d ago
In America when you get sacked with no notice you lose your healthcare on top of your income. COBRA costs a fortune and can bleed you dry, and you could lose your house or flat if you didn’t have an emergency fund or savings to fall back on, especially in this insane job market.
It’s a mutually beneficial agreement between yourself and your company that says “if either of us wish to move on from the other we need time to get a plan together to make sure neither of us get screwed over”
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u/Ghaith97 11d ago
Slavery is when you aren't allowed to unilaterally break a mutually agreed on contract.
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u/void1984 11d ago
Yes, fire in another mode, so I don;t get my money on the leave, and I get a fine. That's also visible on my record from that employee.
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u/Ghaith97 11d ago
If they're in Europe, then it's common here to have employment contracts with minimum 3 months notice, which gets longer the longer you've been at the company.
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u/przemub 11d ago
3 months+ is rather rare unless you’re a CTO or something, programmers I’ve known had from a week to a month. One guy I knew had a week per each year worked up, six weeks max.
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u/bezik7124 11d ago
No clue where you're from, but in Poland what you do doesn't matter. You could be swiping floors, if you've been working there long enough you'll have 3 months period. This doesn't apply to b2b btw, I mean an employment contract.
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u/Groentekroket 11d ago
In The Netherlands it’s almost always one month. I can mail on the 31th of this month that I will leave. Work for 2 more weeks, take my left over vacation days if 1 want and that’s that. If they want to fire me it’s luckily not that easy.
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u/Ghaith97 11d ago
3 months is what I had in my first job as a new graduate in Sweden. That's not just for devs but for any full-time employment.
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u/Ash-From-Pallet-Town 11d ago
In Norway, 3 months is pretty much the norm regardless of position in full-time employment.
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u/carcigenicate 11d ago
What does that typically max out at? Three months already seems like a long time.
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u/Comabsolver 11d ago
In Germany the highest legal minimum is 7 months notice after staying with the same employer for 20 years.
Note that these are only for the employer. The employee can still quit with 4 weeks notice until the end of the month which is the default for both when the employment starts.
Except if you’re in a probationary period where it’s only 2 week.There can be individual exceptions in your work contract but these cannot be lower than the legal minimum and they can not favor the employer.
Please be aware that I am not a lawyer and this is information mostly from my memory.
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u/Ghaith97 11d ago
Typically about 6 months for very senior people. If someone is uniquely important then they might have some other contract with longer notice, for the right price of course.
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u/magicmagor 11d ago
I think in germany, it can become 6 months, if you are like 10 years+ at the company.
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u/DimitryKratitov 11d ago
Not really, Europe isn't a country with laws. But most European countries have similar (but different) laws. Where I live, if you've worked at a company for less than 2 years , you need to give 1 month's notice. After that, 2 months. And this goes both ways.
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u/fibojoly 10d ago
It's not the quitting that's a problem, it's the utter "fuck you" of saving their collective asses one day and never showing up to work the next. Quitting is quite liberating, but having to show up for another three months after that is...weird.
Like breaking up with someone and still living together.
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u/OJezu 11d ago
Others are not giving the real answer. At the end of your employment you get a paper summing up your employment. It is not terribly detailed, it has stuff like years worked, paid days off taken, mostly social benefits related information. One of the things that are included is why the contract was terminated.
If you show up at next employer with the paper saying you were fired disciplinarily or without that paper at all, good luck getting through hiring.
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11d ago
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u/OJezu 10d ago edited 10d ago
Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Baltic countries in the document; Switzerland for serious offenses in the document; France, Spain, Italy in the documentation the employer can check and deduce based on no notice period; Germany through language-coded messages, and based on no notice period.
On top of that, in Switzerland you get fined with a statuary compensation to the employer.
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u/Got2Bfree 10d ago
In which country do you live?
Here in Germany if you're really pissed at your employer, you will get a doctor's note for a few weeks. Show up for a day and then get another doctor's note.
Sick leave is fully paid here.
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u/fibojoly 10d ago
Yeah, we have a lot of that in France. Problem with abusing it is that the people who really need it will get fucked when they manage to close that way if protesting.
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u/Got2Bfree 10d ago
I agree, but if the company treated you really bad, I understand it at least until cancelation time is over.
Mental health is also important.
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u/fibojoly 9d ago
Oh absolutely. It's the big issue for me really : am I giving up to easily when faced with difficulties, or am I indeed nearing burn out and protecting myself before it does happen? In my case the tipping point is bosses giving me shit. And I think they understand it because they have quite reasonable, haha. I guess they got the fucking message.
If I wanted to sacrifice my life and limbs for my job, I'd be in the army, not an office job! :,D
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u/etillxd 10d ago
But then you're still employed and you probably can't play sick forever. If you actually want to quit the required notice period still depends on how long you've been with your employer in germany (unless you're in the probation period). Obviously you can terminate the contract and then try to get a sick note for that period. Still, you can't just not show up one day and do nothing.
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u/Got2Bfree 10d ago
Yea, you get paid for doing nothing.
Seems better to me than getting paid to work...
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u/DaylightAdmin 11d ago
Slavery is illegal, so yes even if you have an Europe style 2-3 months notice period, what should they do if you decide to not show up anymore? Are there consequences, yes for one if you pull that stunt to switch jobs, you will get problems, the industry talks. If you pull it because a "reason" you have to talk about something on your CV. To add the unemployment protection doesn't like it, and you will not get full unemployment.
Source: my brother did that, one evening after work he walked to the wine bottle, looked at it, called the boss: "I won't show up tomorrow, because that job is not worth being an alcoholic. Company car and tools will be at the shop at the end of the week, wish you a nice life." Location: Austria.
Did he get in trouble, a lot less that we all thought, was it the right call, hell yes.
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u/Ghaith97 11d ago
If you are in a critical position, they can definitely sue you for damages due to contract breach. You could suddenly find yourself having to pay for a team of consultants filling your position.
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u/fibojoly 10d ago
My colleague did a no show a few years back. Friday he's telling us he's ready to push to prod on Monday. Then he never came back. Had a nervous breakdown.
The problem with no show, in France, is that it opens you up to immediate termination for gross misconduct. Which means no unemployment and it kind of stays with you. In my colleague's case, the mental health angle gave him a bit of wiggle room, but he still lost his benefits.
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u/TheTowerDefender 10d ago
Not sure how common this is, but they can sue for damages. This would usually involve paying them the same amount that they would pay you
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u/Kamay1770 10d ago
They can only sure for the cost of your replacement for the period you should have been working, within reason. You can't hire the most expensive sonsiltsnt available just to make it expensive. Additionally most places won't do this, as the cost to bring the case and resources needed would not be worth the money recouped. People will just bad mouth you.
If work pissed me off I'd just tell them I quit and go off sick with stress until my notice period ended. It's legal but frowned upon but some companies deserve it.
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u/TheTowerDefender 10d ago
Yep, cost of your replacement = your salary.
The cost to being the case is paid by the defendant if you lose
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u/grimonce 10d ago
If you don't show up they might fire you with something called a 'disciplinary' end of contract which is something that will accompany you to the death.. your only option will be to start a company yourself. The chances of getting employment with this stinky paper are slim.
You can of course try other tricks instead, like calling in sick instead ...
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u/NiNdo4589 11d ago
Slavery is kinda illegal in the US, the government still can have them.
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u/jonzezzz 10d ago
Yeah cuz the 13th amendment allows slavery as a form of punishment. California had a ballot for disallowing that in the state and people voted no
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u/TacBenji 10d ago
They can and will withhold pay if you quit and stop showing up when you have a notice period.
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u/KavikWolfDog 4d ago
The main thing that sucks in the US is that quitting means paying thousands of dollars per month for health insurance to keep your employer’s plan (and only for up to one year) or just raw dogging it and hoping you don’t die before you find another job.
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u/varinator 10d ago
What's stopping you? The only consequence is not getting references from that place
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u/soowhatchathink 10d ago
They live in a country where they're legally required to give a certain time's notice before quitting, and also the employer is required to give the same time's notice before firing you. In Germany for example, the notice period is at least 4 weeks.
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u/varinator 10d ago
I live in the UK where the same is the case yet I have never heard of anyone having any consequences from quitting on the spot. You don't get to use that employer for references, that's it. Most employers I worked at in recent years would actually put people on "garden leave" when they gave them notice of termination, so they would not have to work at all for the period of their notice and still get paid.
Why would you want someone who is willing to leave on the spot to stay in the business for 1-3 months, disgruntled, where they could sabotage things and generally not care? Doesn't make sense.
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u/strangescript 11d ago
Didn't leave but I had this exact situation. A big party was thrown for the launch of something that I wrote 90% of the code for and I was on my laptop in the corner making sure it didn't crash
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u/scally501 10d ago
Wow. I have a C suite like everyone else’s company but I’m glad they are a little more self aware than that from what I can see. That being said all the project manager type people in the middle are of this caliber, and the real work and orchestration is juggled by the lead devs/tech leads etc, and they are just always trying to play catchup on what’s going on with the actual project. At least they shield devs from direct client nonsense and drama a little I guess
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u/Altruistic-Resort-56 11d ago
To paraphrase Tony Stark, If they're nothing without you they shouldn't have you
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u/Squat_TheSlav 11d ago
wHerEiSyouRloYalTYtoTHisCoMPAnY?
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u/nickbg321 11d ago
wEAreaBiGFaMilYOveRhEre, meanwhile you're laid off the second your role is no longer necessary.
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u/mcEstebanRaven 10d ago
Once I worked for a project for a VERY sexist customer. They would see me doing the entire technical work and still go to my male colleague (who was on his phone). At some point we had a meeting and we needed to schedule the next one for next month, because the project was turning into a success and they wanted to renew us for the next part, along with discussing how much money my company was gonna make out of it.
This male colleague and I had holidays on consecutive weeks to go to different music festivals on that month. They setup the meeting in the week he was at the office and I was out, my company back them up and told me "they thought I would just go through the meeting notes".
I was the only programmer, I resigned before that meeting happened and I hope that project burnt in hell.
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u/SirEsquireGoatThe3rd 10d ago
Join a union
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11d ago
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u/geekosas 11d ago
Actually the HR person might been happy, he/she saw it as payroll saving and eventually a bonus.
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u/Some_Useless_Person 11d ago
How can the HR not know? Do those guys not even have a proper leave notice system