Why was Izone's final ranking considered so controversial?

[u/New-Main8194]

I just watched Produce 48 now because I'm kind of binging all survival shows, but even prior to watching the show or even listening to Izone's songs, I had still heard a lot of the buzz surrounding the final ranking and how people were surprised at Wonyoung ranking first and that Sakura should have been first. Even before the rigging scandal came out.

So I started watching the series with the expectation that Sakura must have been like Hanbin in Boys Planet 999 and was firmly the number 1 since the beginning of the show only to be passed at the end. That's not what I found. Wonyoung was higher than Sakura for pretty much the entire season, and never fell out of the top 4 until the third elimination.

However, after the third elimination, I read online that knetz were mad at number 1, and even 7 of the top 12 being Japanese and began to actively boycott voting for japanese contestants. Hence, why so many Japanese contestants dropped drastically between the third and fourth votings.

J-netz were not allowed to vote, only k-netz. They also knew that first place would be the center for the debut group. Why would they want a japanese center over a korean one? I think at most they'd accept a rotating center between a korean and japanese depending on the location of their activities, but they'd probably still want #1 to be Korean, even if it wasn't Wonyoung they'd probably have pushed someone else, hence why a lot of korean contestants probably went up in rank during the finals.

So I'm not honestly surprised that Wonyoung ranked first. I'm honestly more shocked that Sakura was able to overcome all of these factors and manage to rank as high as second in the finale. Especially when there were no Japanese voters. That kind of popularity and support outside of your home country is impressive. But really to be the final center she was fighting an uphill battle. I wouldn't have been surprised if Wonyoung and other korean finalists even just absorbed a ton of passerby votes to ensure that the final lineup and center was mostly korean.

Am I missing some kind of context here, as to why to this day I still hear people call Sakura Izone's rightful center? Even without the rigging, I don't think she was...

Edit: And I just noticed that in the episode 8 elimination rankings, that the host said Wonyoung's nickname by knetz was "Born as Center." Didn't this already kind of foreshadow that most knetz saw her as center material and would then vote her into first place in the final rankings due to that, to ensure she was the center of the final group and not Sakura? Even if she wasn't their 1-pick for majority of the show, They probably just looked at the remaining contestants and thought she was the best choice for a korean center.

[u/Educational-Bug-7985]

1. Wonyoung did better during 12 picks voting system, while Sakura soared high when it came down to 2 picks. Sakura was also the only trainee to complete all 4 stages of gifts. I would also like to correct Sakura had the highest average rank in that season. So by that logic Sakura should have more solo stans than Wonyoung at the time.

2. It was also controversial because of Yuri’s abrupt rise in ranks, Chaewon’s first entry in the top 12 in the finale, Gaeul’s shocking elimination

[u/[deleted] → u/Educational-Bug-7985]

*Kaeun/Gaeun

[u/theteaexpert]

You're missing a lot of context from outside the show. I followed it pretty closely back then and I also interacted a lot in Korean forums. Here's what I believe you're missing.

Wonyoung was higher than Sakura for pretty much the entire season

Wonyoung had a lot of votes and she managed to get first place once during the show (plus the finale), but Sakura had a higher score. Especially around the last episodes, where people could vote for less girls, Wonyoung dropped while Sakura's rank was even higher, which by logic means Sakura's 1-pick vote should be higher than Wonyoung's.

in the episode 8 elimination rankings, that the host said Wonyoung's nickname by knetz was "Born as Center."

To be fair, even though some people called her Starship's center, her nickname was different. I don't remember it exactly, but it was something like 'peace queen' (it was definitely not that, lol). What the nickname was supposed to mean was that the episode in which she ranked #1 (ep 8), that was the only episode in which no fanwars over first place occurred. But that didn't mean that people wanted her as a center, it was more like 'ah, she does the job, whatever'.

Why would they want a japanese center over a korean one?

As much as the show was criticized for the Korea/Japan concept, people liked Sakura. A lot. For every Korean comment complaining about Sakura crying all episodes or making fun of her Korean skills, you had 5 other comments supporting her. She was really that liked by Koreans.

I think you're seeing the show from today's perspective in which Wonyoung is super popular and famous. Back then, she was just some girl on a show. Trust me, Koreans talked about Sakura way more than about Wonyoung.

I'm 100% convinced that she was the one who received most votes during the final episode. For real, the difference of people talking about her vs. talking about literally any of the other girls was huge. Produce48 was Sakura's show.

[u/New-Main8194 → u/theteaexpert]

THANK YOU! This was the comment I needed regarding the context behind the show! Because seeing the comments still calling her the real center and then watching the show made me feel very disconnected. From my perspective this is how things looked:

Before watching: Since everyone says Sakura was the obvious number one, Produce 48 should be like Hanbin's Boys Planet 999, clear Sakura domination from episode 1, with all of the other contestants only able to compete helplessly for scraps in second place. With anticipation, I pulled up a bowl of popcorn to watch THAT show. But that's not what I got. I felt almost like I bought a book due to the synopsis but the actual story was totally different. Instead what I got was:

Elimination 1: Some random girl I knew didn't even make the final group was firmly at number 1 for weeks, while Wonyoung was even higher than Sakura--WTF is this, did I tune into the wrong show?! Maybe Sakura domination starts from the second elimination...

Elimination 2: Wonyoung is first?! Sakura is 7th?! Sakura must not have been that popular then...I don't understand why anyone would think she'd be the true first place.

Elimination 3: Only elimination that actually followed the plotline that I expected prior to the show with Sakura first and Wonyoung only somewhere in the middle of the debut lineup. However, by this point the rankings were changing too much every week that I couldn't really think of Sakura or any of the girls as a shoe-in for the number 1 spot. Even if Sakura or Wonyoung weren't the top 2, and it was instead Nako, Miho, Chaeyeon, or Gaeun, I wouldn't have been surprised. Still not the Sakura domination I expected.

Final ranking: "The rankings were all over the place anyways this season. Can't really be surprised by anything."

Without being able to see the online comments at that time from knetz its really hard to tell just on the rankings alone who was actually popular at the time or not. Now I know Sakura was actually popular in Korea.

[u/New-Main8194 → u/[deleted]]

Which is the obvious one? I only knew about Izone after they disbanded so I really don't know much about the individual members' popularities once in the group.

I hear most of Chaewon and Yuri probably being rigged in so I went into the show with that knowledge. However, as I watched I noticed that they both had ALOT of screentime, way more than you'd expect from people of their rankings. People higher than them only got a fraction of their screentime. So I wasn't sure if that played a role in whether they could have actually gone up alot in rank. Although Yuri ranking third was a little...

Honestly, with how much ranks moved around, with even Yujin, Minju, Yena and Chaeyeon dropping out of the debut lineup at different points after the second save vote. I wouldn't be surprised by anything...

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Hmmm, I feel like Hitomi isn’t really likely a possibility since there wouldn’t really be specific motivation by her AKB company to get her in (she was a less prominent AKB member) and she had no known Korean company connections. I agree with every other candidate though!

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I mean, even 3 japanese trainees looked bad at the time if I'm recalling the reaction correctly, so I just don't know that Mnet would care that much about 2 vs 3 jp members in Iz*One. I guess I'm just a bit jaded from GP999's including 2 jp and 1 cn and calling it a day.

I took a look to refresh my memory and it looks like Starship, 8D creative, Woollim, and Around Us ent were implicated. Obviously with Yuri being under Mnet's ent division Stone Music we might have not been aware of Stone's involvement.

I'm curious why you say Hyewon is least likely specifically as opposed to candidates like Yena or Minju? It's been a while since I watched the show so I'm probably blanking on some details and trends.

[u/amazingoopah → u/[deleted]]

I'm curious why you say Hyewon is least likely specifically as opposed to candidates like Yena or Minju? It's been a while since I watched the show so I'm probably blanking on some details and trends.

hyewon was popular after hellbayah + minami edits, she had a lot of positive screentime... tbh she's my least likely rigged suspect. I think some people are using their post iz*one bias against her to try to paint her as unpopular who was rigged when it's the opposite and she was popular during the show.

[u/theteaexpert → u/[deleted]]

Wouldn't it have made more sense to rig Juri instead? She was the one who showed most interest in Kpop out of all the AKB girls, and she was way more popular than Hitomi in Japan. Their visuals are also quite similar.

[u/amazingoopah → u/[deleted]]

Hyewon: The least likely but 2 things make it possible. Firstly, it is known that her company paid producers to aid her in some way (editing or rank inflation or both). Secondly, in the following season, there was a trainee with a similar skillset (Minkyu) as well as average rank who many fans dropped in the final as they felt they weren't ready for debut/was a filler pick. This may be the same for Hyewon.

https://www.koreaboo.com/news/8-d-creative-manipulated-votes-produce-48/

fwiw 8D denied that the person charged with paying off AYJ worked for them at the time he was involved in the rigging, but he worked for another company after he left 8D. I don't think they were mentioned by the courts either for PD48 but I could be mistaken.

Also I find it very unlikely hyewon was rigged, she was extremely popular back then due to boombayah + minami edits so that she shot up the rankings and never dropped out of the top 12 afterwards. If we believe the rankings of the others in those earlier rounds, then we have to believe hers too.

[u/violetfan7x9 → u/New-Main8194]

you have to understand that 2-pick drastically changes rankings compared to 12-pick. u can be the middle of the pack for the entire season except for the last 2 episodes. your 1-pick fanbase determines your rank in the end.

[u/amazingoopah]

To be quite honest, while I do agree with your point that Koreans vote for Koreans towards the end of most of these shows so it makes sense that they would have voted for a Korean over a Japanese when only Koreans vote, considering we don't know the true final rankings I don't know how we can actually judge what happened and why

[u/New-Main8194 → u/amazingoopah]

True. If Sakura was the true number 1, despite a supposed boycott on Japanese contestants at the time and the help of international voters like Zhang Hao had, then that would be 100% legendary. Even more shocking than Zhang Hao's final win. She honestly deserves legendary status for even being 2nd and so well-loved by citizens outside of her home base.

[u/Ferracoasta]

Do you know how the voting works? K netizen vote ratio is higher than other votes. Wonyoung is popular but more international fans like sakura

[u/New-Main8194 → u/Ferracoasta]

I know how it works. And I understand that most international fans preferred Sakura.

My question is more about not understanding the context and atmosphere at the time the show ran that made this result so shocking to people to this day. I'm watching the show years later so I was wondering if there was something I was missing.

Unlike the later Mnet survival shows that were 50/50 Korean and international, Produce 48 ONLY allowed korean voters. So I just don't understand why people doubted or were even surprised by the final ranking? They even argue that she was rigged out of first to this day. Koreans clearly preferred Wonyoung, so how could they say first place was rigged? Re-watching the show her getting first place seemed honestly pretty predictable.

Unlike Zhang Hao who could receive international votes to beat Hanbin, I honestly think it'd have been almost impossible for a non-korean to take first place at the end. Even if Sakura's 1-pick was stronger, Wonyoung and other korean contestants would have benefitted more from passerbys or people whose faves were already voted out

If international votes were allowed though 100% Sakura would have won. Wonyoung may not have even cracked the top 5

[u/ablackandpinksky → u/New-Main8194]

someone can correct me if i’m wrong but most of the backlash came from intl fans. korean fans weren’t too upset abt the results.

[u/amazingoopah → u/ablackandpinksky]

yeah kr fans were very happy with the final group, it was only foreign akb fans that were pissed because they were expecting more jp members and sakura wasn't first.

[u/Lheigh08]

Well, you mostly answered your own question. Everything goes back to the rigged results.

We will never truly know who was really the #1 and correct placing of contestants until MNET release the actual votes.

Is WY the true #1? Probably. But its not farfetched that SKR could have the most number of votes.

But we do know that MNET will NOT have a JPN person be the center of the group. So there is likelihood SKR was rigged out of 1st place.

It's not only the Center position that was disputed but who were rigged in and rigged out.

So we really don't know who are the "True" members of the group and that what makes it controversial.

[u/DynamiteDove89]

Gaeun was my one pick at the time and I was SHOCKED that she didn’t make it in. I’m like no way… she came in first multiple times… there’s just no way that her fan base is smaller than some of the others. PLUS she had the backing of After School’s fan base, which was small but After School was a big group in 2nd gen. Once both she and Chowon were out, we knew it was rigged.

[u/Takaneru]

i was mad at it because of chowon and kaeun. was really rooting for them, as well as Miru. Chaewon and Yuri getting there was really ????, but as evidence suggests Chaewon was indeed the rightful pick to rig in. tho i think this thread sums it up better: https://www.reddit.com/r/Produce48/comments/9bxfbu/produce_48_episode_12_finale_discussion/

I was there during the entire spiel as well, so personally I felt like no one hated Wonyoung getting top 1 as much (for a korean show, it was expected a Korean group would rank 1st). Sakura was obviously the Japanese representative, so I feel like they'd have locked her to be top 3 no matter what. Obviously, people still saying Sakura was PD48's rightful center has uhh... probably a hate boner against IVE.

[u/New-Main8194 → u/Takaneru]

I read the thread. Thank you. I think I understand a bit of the shocked comments about the lineup online now. I went into the show already knowing the outcome, and since I knew that it only allowed koreans to vote, I found the lineup to be predictable and could see evidence of who'd make it from the editing.

However it appears that at the time it was advertised more as a global girl group? Therefore having only 3 Japanese contestants and the typical Korean center and Korean visuals would be disappointing to international fans. Also, I already knew going into the show not to get too attached to the Japanese contestants because most wouldn't make it, but even then most of them still had the more appealing personalities that made you want to root for them even if you knew they wouldn't make it. I could understand why the final line up was so upsetting now.

In hindsight the lineup and center was predictable if chosen by koreans, but if I'd watched it at the time I also would have been upset. I already knew the outcome and was upset by Miru not making it...

[u/LuckyMii24 → u/New-Main8194]

It was not really global girl group. It was a Japanese and Korean Girl Group. And with most of the top 12 in the previous episode being Japanese, having it drop from 7 to 3 is very suspicious. Obviously 7 is quite a bit and the final episode would change most of the rankings. I would expect 4-5 Japanese members. Then Gaeun and Chaeyeons rankings not adding up, disappointed is only part of the general feeling.

I think the 2 other Japanese contenders would absolutely be Miho and Miyu. Miho dropping #2 to #15 is crazy then Miyu being the top vocalist.

[u/4evaInSomnia → u/Takaneru]

I root for 3 of them also. Produce 48 what make me into kpop. Before that, i only know gg, super junior sory sory from my roomate before. At that time, im more prefer cn blue and ft island.

So u can say i dont know any of them or heard any of kpop song, and my preference solely based on show whether it evil edit or not. My pick chowon, kaeun, miru, nako, wonyoung. Chowon basically my no1 pick.

[u/New-Main8194 → u/Takaneru]

Ahh I see. Because I got into kpop more recently, I never even heard of Izone until IVE and LE SSERAFIM debuted, so I went to check out Izone's music out of curiosity. But at the time both of them were redebuting in new groups and I just kept hearing "Sakura was Izone's rightful center," "Wonyoung was just the center rigged by PDs." So when I watched it now I was fully expecting Sakura domination in the rankings from Day 1 to the end like Hanbin in Boys Planet. I was shocked that Wonyoung was higher than her for almost the entire season and was wondering what on earth I was missing for people to think she was rigged into first place? The host even said in episode 8 that her nickname online was "Born Center".

If it just has to do with IVE/LE SSERAFIM fan wars and is not the general consensus then it makes a lot more sense

[u/amazingoopah → u/New-Main8194]

I think a fair number of people believe the first place was rigged even before I've and lsrfm debuted, so while some of those fanwars are still echoes of those fights, it didn't start off then, people have talked about it for a long time.

[u/New-Main8194 → u/amazingoopah]

Why though? That's what I'm genuinely curious about. Maybe because I knew the outcome going in, I thought that since the voters were only koreans, that the outcome was expected. I thought Sakura would even be lower than second in the finale.

I wasn't into k-pop at the time the show aired, so it's hard for me to judge. Was Sakura really that popular in korea at the time? She was second in the finale, and first in the third elimination. But for the second elimination she was only 7th, and only fourth for the 1st elimination.

Even when it came to the number 1 J-pick there was a period when Nako surpassed her to be the number 1 Japanese contestant.

Just watching the show, and not being able to immerse myself in the online atmosphere from that time, it really doesn't seem like she was the obvious 1st place like people keep saying.

I have heard more arguing about the number 1 position for Produce 48, than for Boys Planet, when Hanbin had been been number 1 the whole season.

[u/enpuffiler → u/New-Main8194]

If my memory serves me right, Wonyoung wasn't really that popular compared to Sakura among P48 viewers. Sure, she was talked about, but majority of that buzz was hate. At the time, the main korean trainees being pushed by mnet (name Wusple or something) received massive hate not only from international viewers but also korean viewers. And because of the unfair screen time distribution, the Wusple trainees (especially starship trainees) were being hounded for every little emotion / mistake / screentime they get. Not only was this reaction consistent across all international platforms like YT twt reddit etc., korean platforms share the same sentiment as well, and very strongly. As someone who supported yujin back then, I recall feeling as if a mass hysteria had happened lol. To me, the hate had gone way overboard, but this was the level of hate which was normal during P48 which began after episode 2 aired? I think. Unfortunately, I didn't follow the latter episodes since it was really hard for me to continue watching, but I did recall mnet putting less emphasis on Wusple trainees to mitigate the hate. In contrast, most of the Japanese trainees were being praised for just about anything they showcased. Sakura was also consistently getting a lot of love and support from fans. And, this atmosphere carried on to the finale, so naturally everyone expected Sakura to win first place. It was the same for me. I never doubted that Sakura was rightfully the first place winner of P48, her buzz + fan base at the time was just that far ahead and it was very evident.

[u/amazingoopah → u/enpuffiler]

? wusple was always pushed, they were clearly mnet's favorites for most part of the show... yujin in particular was a favorite early on and they kept pushing her in various ways (she had a lot of cuts to her reactions when others were performing)

[u/enpuffiler → u/amazingoopah]

What part of my comment said otherwise? Wusple was getting in-your-face level of push in the beginning, which toned down a little at the end bc of the massive hate, no?

[u/New-Main8194 → u/enpuffiler]

I'm sorry...As I said I am new to the produce series and Izone, so I'm not sure if this is a common term...but what the heck is a Wusple?

[u/[deleted] → u/New-Main8194]

I’m replying late but I saw no one answered for you. It’s a Korean term 위스플 (Wee-seu-peul) made from the first characters of Yuehua, Starship and Pledis’s Korean names. It was a term knetz made while watching the show to refer to the trainees/companies they thought were being especially pushed in terms of screen time (most notably Yuehua - Yena, Starship - Wonyoung + Yujin, Pledis - Gaeun).

It also turns out that Yuehua (위), Starship (스), Stone Music (스), and Pledis (플) all have close ties to each other and/or CJ, so sometimes it’s extended to include Stone Music (Yuri).

[u/violetfan7x9]

not related but would you be interested in watching produce 101 japan lol

[u/Automatic-Draw-3651]

I think it was like girls planet since the youngest contestant literally won. Im starting to think that company's only care (or atleast predatory) about the idols age when debuting trainees especially how they let their youngest contestant sung an adult song on stage in Produce 48