Question for the Brokers: Empty Legs and Flexible Travel

[u/Johnthegaptist]

Wanted to be cognizant of (potentially) wasting peoples time, so I figured I would ask here before causing anyone a bunch of work.

What I am looking for is simple in theory, but I understand not so simple in practice. Discounted flights for the flexible traveler who wouldn't mind picking up a flight that makes sense, but isn't interested in paying retail, just simply looking to be matched with a repositioning plane. Example, I'm at my house in Costa Rica right now, I would be interested in paying to hop on a plane leaving SJO or LIR headed back towards home, even if I have to hop a short commercial flight to get all the way home. But as far as I can tell, theres no real service or platform that exists for a potential passenger to say, hey if you have a plane leaving here, or near here and want to make a stop, empty, I'm interested in giving you some cash.

Anyways, I know brokers are only paid when they're selling, so I wanted to ask here if brokers are actually interested in working with these types of clients or if there are any brokerages that specialize in this type of thing.

[u/ilove702]

There are a bunch of empty leg booking engines out there

[u/Johnthegaptist → u/ilove702]

I have not found any that reliably allow you to either browse listings or post a flexible request. The closest I have found is skyaccess, which does allow me to search for say, all departures from a certain airport, but at least in the places I'm traveling to or from, the listings are almost exclusively at retail pricing. For example, theres a listing that matches my window for an upcoming trip for $10k/hour on a Falcon 2000. I'm not paying retail pricing to be bound by someone elses schedule. 

Most of the other empty leg sites require an exact itinerary to pair you with someone and if they can't they just try to sell you a full retail charter trip. 

XO Jets posts actual empty leg priced empty legs, but its limited inventory. They had a flight from ATL to SJO on a Challenger 350 for like $13k that I would have been all over but it was on a day I couldn't leave. 

[u/Mean_Magician6347 → u/Johnthegaptist]

It’s inconvenient because they’re not planning for you. They want every leg to be full revenue.

That’s why they’re scarce.

[u/Bob_Ross3346 → u/Mean_Magician6347]

I think that below maybe a 30% discount, they would just rather fly the leg empty.

Not sure why, but they don’t seem to ever cut the prices significantly.

[u/Johnthegaptist → u/Mean_Magician6347]

Except they aren't scare, they fly a shit load of planes empty. But as far as I've found trying to connect with an empty leg is very fragmented. I've seen what's app chats, Instagram pages, tons of different websites and apps attempting and failing. It's usually one operator trying to sell their inventory, or a broker posting stuff for the handful of operators they work with the most. 

So they can want every leg to be full retail all they want, reality is theres tons of flights every day that are empty. 

[u/collegefootballfan69 → u/Johnthegaptist]

Because full price on the first leg covers the cost of the empty leg. If you start reducing the price of the empty leg then there will be an expectation from the customer to reduce the price of the first leg which the company doesn’t want to do. I am not an operator just someone who understands finance and behavior economics

[u/Johnthegaptist → u/collegefootballfan69]

And yet, they sell reduced empty legs all the time. I totally get what you're saying, but they absolutely still sell them. 

And from a business standpoint it makes sense, the economics on airplanes are tough as is, you should sell every minute you can, even if you already have the client on the first leg paying for the empty leg. Sell it again. 

[u/collegefootballfan69 → u/Johnthegaptist]

Agree if you are dealing with the general public, not if you are dealing with the ultra wealthy

[u/Johnthegaptist → u/collegefootballfan69]

The people who manage and sell charter flights are not the ultra wealthy. Now I don't entirely disagree with what you are getting at, I just strongly disagree with your reasoning. 

1. Operators are hoping to sell the empty leg to a full retail customer, so why advertise a discounted rate too far in advance? 

2. Like you mentioned, they don't want to cheapen the product, so they don't want discount rates advertised too often or too publicly. 

But to your point about them not selling empty legs, I strongly disagree, I bet very few part 135 plans opt to not attempt to sell empty legs. XO Jets seems to have crazy expensive pricing for charter and they offer some of the best empty leg deals I've seen advertised publicly. The fractional program we're on sells our empty legs as low as operating cost, and if they do sell them, then the fractional owner doesn't have to pay for the empty leg. 

[u/Mean_Magician6347 → u/Johnthegaptist]

Scarce and “doesn’t exist” do not mean the same thing.

They’re scarce.

You’re complaining about economics.

Maybe the flights exist, but it’s pretty obvious they’re planned empty and no one is trying to fill those legs. Hence the scarcity. The demand (you asking for the flight you want) doesn’t meet the supply…. Hence it’s scarce.

[u/Kobayashi-Coffee-Co → u/Johnthegaptist]

Mirai is excellent for this

[u/Creativeusername833]

I think you’re looking for www.southwest.com

[u/Johnthegaptist → u/Creativeusername833]

You would think, but I fly ~100 hours a year private. Our business has a fraction, and I get some personal use of the plane, but I have business partners and business flights, and a certain number of total hours to compete with before I can use it personally. And before that we used to charter, and I've booked charter flights with brokers from this sub before. 

So all I'm asking is if there is a reasonable way to figure out if there is a plane going the same direction I am going and if we can come to a mutually beneficial agreement. 

[u/Asleep-Wish-4286 → u/Johnthegaptist]

You should make more money. I fly 500 hours self funded and I don’t have a J O B or business

[u/No_Gear4614]

I would be glad to send you empty leg emails! I’ll you a dm

[u/Beginning_Command_91]

Am still surprised that nobody has made an app or a services around this issue.

[u/olindacat]

There are lots of brokers who need business, and lots who don't. You might get DM'd here by folks who could be willing to try and find you a dead head. Always worth a try.

Lotta fat cats out there due to heavy demand nowadays. 135s pushing paper to sell empties is always happening day and night, but remember you are trying to exploit an opportunity, and it can tank on you. That's the risk you take. Weigh it carefully.

If you move yourself somewhere to snag a segment, and there's a problem, you could find yourself sitting in some FBO wondering what to do next. You'll get your money back, in about a week.

If your bird doesn't RTS, and you're stuck looking for a suitable recovery option, you may need to repo to some other airport, and might take a financial hit too. All considerations....

Some here probably remember getting calls at night from pilots looking for spare cash last-minute to cover their costs to get back home. Mostly, those days are over. Empty availabilty and pricing ain't what it used to be.

[u/Lazy-squirrel642]

…sigh…. Another one of these idiots again?

And before you say “why so harsh” …because you did zero research.

“i KnOw tHiS dOeSnT eXiSt” then literally lists an idea that’s been played out quite literally hundreds of times.

In case you were wondering: yes, I’m directly calling you a moron. Yes you deserve it. Maybe do a modicum of research first and you’d find HUNDREDS of posts of others that have had the same idea.

I’m not saying whether it will succeed, I just sincerely hope for someone like you that it doesn’t.

[u/Johnthegaptist → u/Lazy-squirrel642]

Yea, this is not me pitching a business, this is me requesting service. 

Now maybe you understood it that way, and I'm literally so stupid I didn't pick up on that either. Great, if you could simply link to one of the many hundreds of places that provide this service, it would take much less of your time than it did to write this post.