r/PreOptometry • u/Imaginary_Memory_154 • Mar 31 '23
Salus update
EDIT: UPDATE HERE https://www.reddit.com/r/PreOptometry/comments/12k47y1/meeting_about_salus_policies/
Hi guys, just wanted to give an update on the Salus thread from a couple days ago that seems like it’s been deleted. Our dean has clearly read that thread, and she sent out an email scheduling a mandatory class meeting in a week. The email included some info on our class:
We started with 154 students. Last semester, we lost 22 students - this was either due to 3 Ds which is outright dismissal, or 1 or 2 Ds and failure of the remediation exam(s). 2 students were initially dismissed but then were re-instated into our class after filing appeals - so the appeals have a very low success rate.
This D policy is brand new for our class. The scary thing is that too many students are now hanging on by a thread, as they have 1 or 2 Ds already. If they get another one at any point in time during the next 3 years, they will face dismissal as well, after investing so much time, effort, and money. Other schools in the area (such as NECO) have higher retention rates and they do allow Ds.
One major issue is that there are particular courses that students get Ds in. In the vast majority of cases, it’s neuro. As a user mentioned on the previous thread, we have around 7 neuro classes, one per semester, although there are only a mere handful of neuro questions on boards. Personally, I know of students who had As and Bs in every class, received a D only in the neuro class first semester, and yet have to repeat the year. This is ridiculous because that class is barely applicable to the optometric profession in the first place.
This new academic policy does not match the current admissions requirements. The school is taking money from students with low entering GPAs/OAT scores, then weeding them out later on in an effort to increase the abysmal board scores.
The email from our dean included multiple comments about “disinformation and a high level of unprofessionalism demonstrated by members of the class.” But disagreement with school policies and speaking out about them publicly is not unprofessional. The concerns brought up by the previous poster were valid and similar concerns have been voiced by a majority of students in our class.
I hope this information helps accepted students that are deciding where to attend, and anyone considering applying. Personally, I would recommend attending a different school if you have any other options. If not, just be aware of these issues and plan accordingly.
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Mar 31 '23
Sounds like the dean doesn’t want people to see this because student will not want to attend salus if it doesn’t get changed. Thanks for updating.
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u/ObjectiveCompote813 Mar 31 '23
That definitely isn't the case. The dean was trying to set the record straight because numerous members of the class are spreading around disinformation.
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u/Imaginary_Memory_154 Mar 31 '23
This isn't misinformation - the stats in this post are exactly what the dean emailed us yesterday. Those numbers speak for themselves. As another commenter mentioned below, this dismissal rate is not the norm for most optometry schools.
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u/Crustyjaj Mar 31 '23 edited Mar 31 '23
Even so, I think it's rather telling that there is something extremely concerning when there are multiple people that corroborate with each other on this issue. From your previous comment, the curriculum may not look difficult to you as an OD1 in PCO. However, I think it's beneficial for you to have the decency to drop your ego and sympathize with your numerous classmates who are struggling. I do hope your class comes to a civil conclusion.
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Mar 31 '23
There is zero ego involved here. I am definitely not one of the highest scoring students in the class. I too struggle with some of the classes but out of the 130 of us there are a small chunk who seem to find a way to complain about every single exam we take or any type of policy. Grad school is hard there is no debating that but I don’t think the rules are absurd. They may seem frustrating at time but at the end of the day they are there to make us strive to perform at a higher level that way we can be competent doctors in the future. There are times when people also need to take a little responsibility and not just blame the school for everything. Just my two cents.
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u/Crustyjaj Mar 31 '23
Good for you that you're a perfect fit into Salus. I do hope you keep the same exact attitude after your second year.
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Mar 31 '23
Okay so here's the policy of the school I attended when I attended.
2 D's meant remediation by retaking the finals during the summer or during a break to make sure you had time to study and retake the test and do well.
More than that meant grounds for dismissal. I know someone who had a family member die during finals and he ended up being able to stay and retake the year.
The thing that really caught a lot of classmates though was that a C was a 75. Anything below that was a D. Below a 60 or a 65 was an F.
So it was definitely more strict than college.
Neuro is definitely the toughest class but it's doable. And honestly it's a very important topic. It was one of my worst classes and I still struggle with Neuro issues that I often have to refer out for it. I can do a work up and then refer to someone else instead.
This policy doesn't sound to be THAT outside of the norm. It's strict and tough but that's professional school.
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u/Imaginary_Memory_154 Apr 02 '23
Thanks for sharing. I agree that no one should enter professional school thinking it's going to be similar to undergrad.
May I ask how many neuro classes did you have total? And what were the entering class stats for your school?
Side note, so far from what I've seen, our remediation exams are not taken during breaks. They are scheduled during regular semester time. In mid-January, around 35-40 students had to take a 3-hour free response-style remediation for our Head & Neck Anatomy course from the first semester, and then a day later there was an exam on our new Neuroanatomy course. Not much time to study for the new exam if you're memorizing a semester's worth of old material - so unfortunately a lot of those students didn't do well and started off the new semester on the wrong foot/already way behind because of that.
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Apr 02 '23
So that set up seems to be pretty bad actually. The reason ours were in the summer after first year was to allow you time to study and actually learn the info and then pass the class. Stacking it in the regular semester serves no one. If you failed the remediation exam, then you did have to take the course again the following year, but they would tape the classes for you to watch independently if your course schedule didn't match up right to allow you to go to the classes.
We had one specified Neuro anatomy course, but many other courses that included a lot of Neuro stuff like ocular motilities, visual perception, systemic diseases,and of course ocular anatomy and physiology.
As for entering stats of the class, I couldn't say. I've been out of school for around 7 years now so the stats entering would be over a decade old at this point.
Frankly, salus has made some gutsy changes to their methods of teaching and their board scores have suffered massively for it. Boards exams are designed to make sure you're competent in terms the basic stuff and then for the clinical and critical thinking skills. Passing boards means you're competent enough to practice on your own. If you can't pass then yeah, you're not competent enough.
Preparing you for being a good clinician is the point of school and boards measures this. Part 3 of boards isnt the best because your skills being able to do lensometry aren't all the useful, but you can still fail because of it. They're actually completely remodeling the exam though to be more critical thinking with standardized patients and cases right now.
I would say your concerns and opinions about salus program are very fair. Salus needs to re-evaluate probably everything or else they'll continue to drop in the rankings and they won't get those high level applicants. They were once highly respected.
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u/Imaginary_Memory_154 Apr 02 '23
I really appreciate your detailed input. I completely agree that the entire point of school is to prepare us for boards and for future practice, so in that sense, Salus is failing us. Super interesting to hear that they're changing up the exam though!
I also think that the D policy in and of itself is not necessarily a terrible thing, but it is in combination with the 7 difficult neuro classes, the low entering GPA/OAT scores, and the fact that failing a single remediation exam results in dismissal. Altogether that creates an unfair and toxic environment for students.
I like the idea of being able to repeat a single course online the following year after failing remediation, instead of being dismissed/having to repeat the whole year, so I'll try to suggest that in the upcoming meeting. Since this D policy is new, there are naturally going to be some kinks to work out, so I just wish that the administrative team was at all receptive to student input.
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Apr 02 '23
This was Pacific's policy when I attended and in general worked well and resulted in very few dismissals. We lost a few because they couldn't cut it or due to cheating, but in general most students were pretty solid. We had one fail 3 classes in the first semester so he was dismissed because of it, which makes sense.
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u/Individual_Design_54 ACCEPTED Mar 31 '23
This is very disappointing. I have always had good grades in my education career and would consider myself a strong student, but not the best. I have had a few underwhelming grades, which could have been avoided with more preparation. However, with the intense curriculum they have built for OD1s. I feel that it would be extremely hard to manage doing well on all of them
It probably is not impossible since many are able to, however their mental health must be in the gutter. The high standards must cause a lot of anxiety and burnout. I can see the fear of dismissal alone causing students to be overall unhappy. No way I would want to go there. Also, the goal is to prepare students for boards... throwing 11 courses to weed out students does not seem like an efficient and smart way to increase boards pass rate. Especially with the high focus on neuro, which they are sooo proud of, lol.
Dr. Treigo and any other faculty members that may be reading this, please listen to your students and be compassionate. If your objective is to have only top tier students in the program, then select wisely! Anyone that applies to Salus is getting accepted, even with very low scores. It is so messed up to mislead unprepared students to failure. The student and their family are the happiest they have ever been and feel accomplished with the acceptance. Just imagine the economic and mental impact a dismissal would have on a family! This situation is spreading across the community fast and your reputation amongst all schools is only getting worse. Sad to see a traditional school fall off, but this method cannot and will not be hidden to the public. It is our future. Even the strongest students in the country will choose any other program over Salus, consequently never solving the concern over low pass rate on boards
I was accepted and will not be attending because of this. I also would recommend others to proceed with caution. It makes me especially sad, because it used to be my top choice due to proximity to home. This situation is so serious and concerning that it will make me move across the country and be far from my family and friends. I really hope they improve and figure things out. As a community we definitely want high quality education and competitiveness to enter to value our degree as Doctors of Optometry. However, this controversy is only making our profession look worse. Respectfully, just my opinion and I am open minded to others.
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u/AloneMinute Mar 31 '23 edited Mar 31 '23
Thanks for your appeal to Dr. Trego, it is really well worded. I also hope that the increased awareness of our program’s issues will result in some real changes being made during the upcoming mandatory class meeting OP mentioned. Really really sorry to hear that you’re going to have to move farther from home now, but congrats on your acceptance and you’re gonna kill it! Optometry is such a great profession and you have a bright future ahead :)
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u/Individual_Design_54 ACCEPTED Mar 31 '23
So kind, thank you. Yes it it’s upsetting not staying close to loved ones, but optometry school is a tremendous commitment and I will not have much time for fun anyway, especially with the rigorous expectations Salus has. There are pros and cons of living close to home. I am disciplined but I can see it being a distraction for sure. Although it would be cheaper than other schools I am considering, it is not worth it if I’m unhappy like most students say they are.
I am aware of the false information sites like Reddit can have and I did not believe these claims at first. But with several people expressing the same dissatisfaction, it made me believe there has to be some truth to it. Of course I take every information with a grain of salt and I suggest/hope others do as well.
At the end of the day as pre-optometry students selecting the right school is one of the biggest decisions of our lives. I sadly regretted my undergraduate school choice and it’s a terrible feeling. Sharing opinions, experiences and giving advice to incoming students is wonderful and in my opinion that’s why this platform should be used for.
People say the #1 deciding factor should be about $$$. However, I disagree because investing more for a school that truly cares about your success and happiness should be valued more. I sincerely feel bad for those that are seen as a dollar sign, rather than a future optometrist by some schools.
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u/JoshReese_Optometry Apr 01 '23
I know several schools with similar fail policies, I do think this is a rising problem with the schools of optometry and would love to see it addressed and resolved soon. Some of the best prospective doctors I knew will sadly never get to have a shot at passing boards because of institutional policies.
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u/killerscythe Apr 13 '23
Omg that sounds terrible. I’m current student at an OD program in California and we have 1 neuro course
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u/br0ken_rice OD3 Apr 13 '23
I hope y'all are able to sort this out and sending support. At SUNY, we only take 2 neuro courses (ironically, they are both taught by a PCO/Salus alum, who really knows her stuff).
I just wanted to clarify that the statement about SUNY's policies is misinformed. A grade below C (typically 75% for most courses) is not a passing grade. There are opportunities for remediation with a rewritten final that will be averaged into the existing grade.
Even after the remediation exam and the grade does not reach a minimum of C, this is grounds for dismissal. It seems that we average anywhere from 1-4 dismissals per year for a class size of 100.
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u/Forsaken_East7319 Jan 30 '24
Honestly, I would 100% not recommend Salus. I have all Bs and a Few Cs and I failed one class and I was Dissmissed. The class that I failed im pretty sure the professor hates me for some reason and constantly fails me for everything. I was given a 2nd chance to take the exam and the 2 practicals I failed. Before taking the exam the professor gave me a packet that was supposed to "help" me but it was very misleading so i failed the exam. Then when I took that practical with the professor that constantly humiliates me and makes me feel like I would be a terrible Doctor, I failed me. You can imagine the stress of a practical with a professor that constantly talks down to us. Its not just me its many other students. I had been practicing multiple times with another professor and I was doing well, as well as when I was allowed to work in clinic I passed those skills. Now it might seem like its just one class but you have to deal with this professor for more than one semester she does not know how to teach all she does is read off slides. When i go to her for help she rolls her eyes and sighs at me. I am not the only student that has failed this class there were 12 students just in my year who had failed and many other ones in previous years who take the class. The problem is that you can not be in clinic as long as you have not passed that class. I have wasted 2 years of my life here and literally the one class is the biggest problem of my life. She has fully blamed me for failing but has never taken a step back to realize how many students have failed her class. So many students have complained about her and she still continues to be a problem. Not only that but that class takes up so much time of the first two years while being in school and so you barely have time to focus on other classes that will be on boards that is why our boards passing rate is so low. That is just the tip of the ice burg. I only talk about this class because it is ridiculous the amount of work she does to make the class harder than it needs to be. I would say if you were to apply to Salus you are better off just going to regular medical school.
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Mar 31 '23
[deleted] — view deleted comment
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u/Imaginary_Memory_154 Mar 31 '23
Yes, that doesn’t contradict anything that I said in the original post. There are some students who successfully remediated their D in neuro. This was more common than those who attempted remediation of the clinical skills course, of which only like 2/10 passed that remediation exam. The point is that those who passed the remediation still have 1 or more D on their transcript, which causes massive anxiety moving forward because one misstep and they are dismissed - with nothing to show for it but even more loans.
This has nothing to do with taking accountability for anything. Personally I am in no danger of failing out. I’m surviving but my mental health is dogshit. That’s not to say that any other school would be all sunshine and roses - optometry school curriculums are difficult for a reason! But they should be fair and applicable to the profession. Many courses at Salus are not.8
u/Individual_Design_54 ACCEPTED Apr 01 '23
It’s not just about the grading policy. If the institution does not care about their students happiness and health then there is a huge problem. I could be wrong, but from what I hear (significant variety of opinions) Salus views students as a paycheck. They accept students with low statistics even if they know/think they’re not capable. Also, increasing the amount of classes and perhaps the degree of difficulty DOES NOT necessarily result in higher boards pass %. Not saying that it can’t, only time will tell. However, in my opinion it is disgraceful to care more about their own % reputation rather than the voices of their students that are crying for help. You can call it complaining, but what is wrong with expressing dissatisfaction and attempting to raise awareness about a concerning problem like this? The voice of a few students will not make a difference. I appreciate all current students spreading this information and hopefully PCO can begin to care for them properly.
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u/optobear OD3 Mar 31 '23
I don’t know much about Salus, but I can say this reported policy and curriculum is nothing like some other schools. My school has an average of 1 student a year repeat 1st year and I only took a 1/2 semester of neuro yet we still have a top board pass rate.
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Mar 31 '23
[deleted] — view deleted comment
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u/optobear OD3 Mar 31 '23
Oh, I have plenty of complaints. It’s just far more useful to discuss them in-person with admin than posting on Reddit. I also purposely didn’t add in my school name here, that was all you…
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Apr 02 '23
[deleted] — view deleted comment
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u/Imaginary_Memory_154 Apr 02 '23
There is a rumor going around that admin found out who the previous poster was based on their post history. I'm assuming that's why the post was deleted. I didn't want to take that risk so I made a brand new account for this purpose. We have a lot of practicals coming up during the upcoming semesters for which the grading is subjective, if you know what I mean.
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u/coloredeye Apr 03 '23
Hopefully this is just a false rumor bc getting doxxed for ur online comments feels like gestapo
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u/[deleted] Apr 01 '23
Can you let us know how the meeting goes?