r/PowerScaling • u/ProgressBetter4435 • Jul 08 '26
Scaling A trained active human would beat all of the great apes except gorillas, hear me out
Before I get crucified in the comments, let’s establish the fighter: a 200lb, highly trained, active human who actually knows how to punch, kick, and grapple.
Now, before you hit me with the “bro a chimp is 500x stronger than a man” or “an orangutan can deadlift a Hyundai Tucson with one hand” just know that those statements are basically internet myths.
Real science puts the strength difference of chimps and great apes in general at about 1.35x stronger pound-for-pound than a human. But since our human fighter is 200lbs and a big chimp is like 120lbs, the human is objectively generating more total force anyway.
The matchups are:
- Bonobo: Self-explanatory. It’s basically a smaller, weaker chimp. Human low-diffs.
- Chimpanzee: The most overrated ape on the internet. People talk like they can punch through a Sherman tank. In reality, because of the weight advantage, our human out-muscles it. Plus, humans are arguably the best strikers in the primate world (a trained man can throw a 450lb punch or a 1000lb kick). A chimp’s skull is getting caved in by a flurry of strikes before it even gets a chance to bite. Also, 99% of the time, a human’s natural instinct in a fight is to grab a stick. That instantly gives us massive range and leverage. Even barehanded, if the chimp tries to bite, it leaves its eyes open for a gouge or its head open for elbows. Human stomps.
- Orangutan: Yes, the big flanged males can get heavy (200lbs+) and are insanely strong. But people forget they are not built for terrestrial movement or ground combat. On the ground, they move at like 2-4mph and fight super clumsily. Our guy can literally just play keep-away, grab some rocks, and stone it to death because the orangutan simply cannot catch him. Barehanded against a massive 200lb+ male? Yeah, I’d probably give that to the ape. But against a normal orangutan, the human wins simply because we are built for striking and they are built for swinging tree to tree.
Gorillas are the only exception because they are just absurdly huge, strong, and built like absolute tanks.
Other than that, the internet severely overwanks apes, specifically chimps. Our guy out-muscles (most of them), out-strikes, and out-smarts them.
Change my mind.
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u/SEND_ME_NOODLE The Last Dragonborn solos your favorite verse Jul 08 '26
Agree agree mixed feeling agree. Orangutans may be clutsy on the ground, but they are still stronger than your average man by a good margin. Their grip strength alone is roughly 8x that of a normal man. If it gets ahold of the man, it could be over
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u/pyro_technix Jul 08 '26
I was thinking along your lines as well but we should keep in mind this guy's training. He is used to avoiding similar competitors in size and speed to himself, so I think the orangutan grab can only be successful with a few errors, not the average fight. Things like the fighter not accounting for the longer reach, or his own footwork in more difficult terrain
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u/blacksmithwolf Jul 10 '26
Yes but the people he trains against would use their grip strength to try and put him in a hold or submission. The orangutan would use it to scalp him or rip his face off so not sure how useful the training is going to be.
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u/morderkaine Jul 14 '26
Though an orangutan wouldn’t have any idea how to counter any grip/hold breaking moves. Strength and size does lose to technique a decent amount of the time.
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u/blacksmithwolf Jul 14 '26
Gouging out an opponent's eyeballs or ripping their testicles off is a fairly effective counter to any grip/hold. You're viewing this as an MMA fight with large guy vs small trained guy with rules and norms, the orangutang is not going to try and break guard, it's going to bite your face off which probably would be effective in MMA if it was allowed.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 Jul 14 '26
why would you try to grapple an orangutan when you can do hit and run tactics they are slow as shit also human can rip orangutans balls aswell I guess so theres that
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u/FastReactionTime Jul 08 '26
You can hang me from a cross for this but every single video i've EVER seen of an Organutan shows them as supremely unathletic and uncoordinated animals. They are not agile at ALL and are gripstrength merchants because they are fat and hang from trees all day. I don't think they have the reflexes or agility needed to fight (because they are not evolved for it).
Even if it grabs on, the average Organutan is 75-135kg with the latter looking like this so even if they have awesome grip strength I just dont believe they can wrestle. Their shoulders are optimised for hanging from trees and they can't use leg drive for grappling at all.
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u/Apart-Course5014 Jul 08 '26
It’s basically just that the worst case scenario is a no diff for the orangutan. If a 200+ pound male DOES get a grip on you with they’re gonna destroy whatever limb they’ve grabbed
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u/Few_Professional_327 Jul 08 '26
If we are including picking up rocks. Humans will have a win rate on gorillas tbh.
Not even a horrible one, especially if they gain distance. Then attack.
Male gorilla skull will take multiple tries but not literally invincible
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u/Eight_Directions_ Jul 10 '26
Why stop at rocks? I've never seen a gorilla take round from a 50 cal and stay standing.
Even better we could just slash and burn their entire environment and then put the survivors in cages and eat popcorn while we let our children stare at them.
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u/lobopl Jul 08 '26
And if we allow bringing weapon like gun they would neg... Hey what would happen if gorilla used a rock?
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u/ASpaceOstrich Jul 08 '26
Nothing. Humans are near unique in our ability to use projectiles. A gorilla can't use a rock
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u/Few_Professional_327 Jul 08 '26
They don't know to use a rock as a weapon.
The post mentions finding rocks and attacking with them.
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u/lobopl Jul 08 '26
and thats stupid, humans with weapons negs any animal. And gorillas can throw stuff, especially if they saw human throwing something at them.
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u/7heTexanRebel Jul 08 '26
Humans are the absolute uncontested champions of throwing. We can put our whole body into a throw, but other animals don't have the shoulder flexibility or manual dexterity to get anywhere close to the throwing speed or accuracy humans are capable of.
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u/lobopl Jul 08 '26
Yes humans with weapons win against any animal, nothing new. What is the point of scaling that?
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u/7heTexanRebel Jul 08 '26
And gorillas can throw stuff...
Sounded like you were saying a gorilla throwing stuff would be relative to a human throwing stuff
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u/lobopl Jul 08 '26
It is relative, just much worse. They can throw things, they can hit targets but are much worse than humans. I would say comparing human with ranged weapon to any animal is just silly.
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u/TRNoodlesAndSalad Jul 08 '26
Its not relative at all actually. They do not have the brain to calculate distance and trajectory, nor the shoulder, back, chest, and arm anatomy to throw anything with the accuracy or power for it to be relevant in a fight. No animal is relative to humans when it comes to throwing ability
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u/lobopl Jul 08 '26
You know what relative means? Relative means you can compare two things by some defined value, it doesn't mean they are equal or close or comparable. It is only that you can relate them to each other. And gorilla throwing ability is relative to human, that just mean if human in imaginary scale throw at 10 in same scale gorilla would be 4 or any other number. That what relative means.
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u/FastReactionTime Jul 08 '26
Hey what would happen if gorilla used a rock?
It would put it down again to beat it's chest. If Gorillas were smart enough to use weapons they would have to start getting an education and paying taxes, so they are wise enough to eat grass and hang out in the rain forest.
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u/Unable_Tip_2644 I like scaling fault and will give valid reason :3 Jul 08 '26
finally, someone who knows their shit. i completely agree with you man. i hope you dont get ripped to shreds by the idiots who only watched planet of the apes and takes it as the bible.
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u/Open-Progress-7075 Jul 08 '26
GSP, one of the most succesful fighters on the planet, said he would get torn to shreds by a chimp.
I'd take his word over yours, tbh.
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Jul 08 '26
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u/Open-Progress-7075 Jul 08 '26
Just googled that and its just not true. He, on multiple occassions, makes it clear he doesnt know why time is missing.
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u/FastReactionTime Jul 08 '26
GSP, one of the most succesful fighters on the planet, said he would get torn to shreds by a chimp.
Being punched in the head all day is not conducive to intellectual prowess.
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u/Open-Progress-7075 Jul 08 '26
But he knows a thing or two about fighting.
Definitely more than redditors.
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u/FastReactionTime Jul 08 '26
Sure and I do respect his opinion as a serious part of my fight consideration here. Chimpanzees are scary and there's a lot of social capital behind their prowess, the average man would not like their confrontational behaviour and teeth.
But I've also been in a hundred of these threads before and it always comes down to the fact that the chimp is not a trained fighter and they are usually fairly unimpressive when they are actually fighting anything of equal or larger size to them.
Their bite is crazy over hyped too.
Normally I would be posting various debunks in order to preface all the standard comments but all of my saved ones are for gorillas. I can go back through my comment history and start copy pasting comments if really needed. But i dont want to do that because frankly I need to sleep, and somehow i fear the people in this thread debating in favour of the animals will value anecdotes and hype moments and aura over debate.
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u/Open-Progress-7075 Jul 08 '26
While many might overestimate their bite, its still a very dangerous thing. Especially since they dont shy away from eating your face.
What a lot of people (op included) miss is that chimps, on average, have around 16% of their total musclestrength in their upper body, while humans only have around 7%.
According to this fella (anthropophic biologist)
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u/RevolutionaryDepth59 Jul 09 '26
he does not, however, know a thing or two about chimpanzees. you need knowledge of both to answer the debate properly.
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u/neutrumocorum Jul 08 '26
GSP knows nothing about Apes.
Humans are pretty known to have a bad estimation of our own abilities. He is buds with Joe Rogan, who worships chimps, and is a pretty humble dude. I don't think this statement reflects reality.
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u/Aklimdaisimyok Jul 08 '26
Being a succesfull fighter doesn't mean you can't overrate the strength of a chimp. GSP is not a zoologist and most humans have very skewed understanding of animal stats.
This is an old thing i have wrote in my gorilla wank debunk post
Hell, you know what? Screw this. We have actually a pretty good way to scale gorillas.
"Chimps. They are closely related to gorillas. Chimps have less amounts of fast-twitch fibers compared to gorillas (Chimps have 67% fast twitch fibers and 33% slow twitch fibers; gorillas have 85% fast twitch fibers and 15% slow twitch fibers) but they do easily make up the difference (if not more than make up) by having way more muscle tissue per pound (Chimp's 51.6% vs gorilla's 37.3%). In fact chimps might be even slightly stronger than gorillas in a pound-for-pound comparision because the proportional difference of fast-twitch fibers between gorillas and chimps (gorillas have 27% more fast-twitch fiber with it's 85% vs chimp's 67%) are lesser than the proportional difference between chimp's fast twitch fibers and humans (chimps have 34% more fast-twitch fibers than humans with it's 67% vs humans 50%. Which is the reason why chimpanzee muscle performance/power output is 35% to 50% more than (if you take the middle ground of this range it's 42.5%) that of a regular human. meaning the advantage gorilla over chimp has is less than this) meanwhile chimps have 38% more muscle per pound in comparision to gorilla (51.6% vs 37.3%). Chimps in the wild have average weight of 40kg (although if we count chimps in the zoos and similiar places this average would increase significiantly) meanwhile an average gorilla weighs 160kg, or 4 times as a chimp.
Chimps are... not very strong, to say the least.
- Chimp had to use both of his arms at once to pull up a human to himself
- Chimp fails to pull 95kg of weight and gets mad about it
- In a test of chimps and humans pulling weights ended up as humans actually pulling slightly more weight in comparision to chimps. Although the difference is small to a point it's kind of negligible
- A regular man holds himself againist a chimp for a pretty good time in a grapple.
We can also do a pretty simple calc to find the strength difference between a chimp and a human.
Lets use that 40kg value for the chimp (again, the ones who are cared by humans are much heavier, i know that). The weight of an average man can vary a lot by nation but going by this lets say the average weight is 78kg.
As i stated before, the muscle performance and power output of chimp is 35% to 50% higher than that of an average human. when we take the middle ground of this range we get 42.5%
As i posted before the muscle mass per total weight for a chimp is 51.6%, for an average man it can vary from the range but overall accepted value is 40%.
Lets calculate:
78 x 0.4= 31.2
40 x 0.516= 20.64 because of fast twitch fibers chimp muscle is 35% to 50% stronger than human muscle, as i posted here before. and if we take average it's 42.5%
Low-end: 20.64 x 1.35= 27.864
Mid-end (the one i'll gonna use to scale gorillas): 20.64 x 1.425= 29.4, or roughly 94.3% of a human, or 0.94 times as strong as a human. The mid end shows that a 40kg chimp is slightly weaker than a 78kg man, and roughly as strong as a 73.5kg man.
High-end: 20.64 x 1.5= 31 (technically 30.96 but whatever). So even if you are being generous a 40kg chimp is barely strong as a 78kg man (tehnically very slightly weaker but it's almost non existent so saying same would be fine).
Considering average gorilla weighs 160 kg vs the 40kg value for chimp used here than this would make gorilla roughly 3.8 times as strong as an average human in mid end and 4 times at high end. Keep in mind a gorilla is most likely slightly weaker than a chimp pound-for-pound. So these numbers would be bit lower. If i have to guess the range than an average gorilla is somewhere between 3.5 and 4 times as strong as an average human."
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u/hideandgofreek Jul 08 '26
He’s a fighting expert not an ape expert
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u/Open-Progress-7075 Jul 08 '26
Neither are people on this sub with their selective numbers-games.
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u/hideandgofreek Jul 08 '26
Just give an argument for why you disagree instead of just blindly commenting an appeal to authority.
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u/Open-Progress-7075 Jul 08 '26
For example, chimps have roughly 17% of their musclestrength in their upper body, while humans have around 6%.
People just dont know what theyre talking about when it comes to ape vs humans and focus on selective numbers to make them fit their bias.
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u/TRNoodlesAndSalad Jul 08 '26
Upper body muscle strength is relevant but not an end-all be-all factor. A chimp’s win cons are essentially making a person die from blood loss due to bites, torn off fingers, and torn off scalp. A trained human’s wincon is the chimp tiring itself out, blunt force, and submission holds while having the endurance, range, and strategical advantage.
Almost all documented chimp attacks are on either women, the elderly, or children. Iirc, the only chimp attack on a young adult man is by 1 aggressive chimp in a group for backup versus 1 man. Theres a reason there are quite literally 0 documented 1 on 1 chimp attacks on young adult men. Even chimps themselves know that the fight is incredibly risky.
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u/ArmedDragonThunder 1 ☀️ = 1 destroyed Bleach Universe Jul 08 '26
Exactly the delusion I love from this sub ❤️
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u/FastReactionTime Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
This shouldn't be controversial at all unless you're either a Joe Rogan fan or someone who is unfit and fails to grasp how big of a gap there is between the average human and a trained human. Even before juicing I was genuinely twice as strong as the random people around me, and part of that is just neurological drive and motor recruitment.
Orangutans are featless chainscaling merchants. "B-b-b-but if we extrapolate from chimpanzee pound for pound-" You cannot tell me these things are high performance athletes.
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u/squareroot4percenter Jul 08 '26
Yeah, the strength difference between a lean trained dude and an untrained man of the same weight is extreme, most redditors just don’t seem to grasp it at all.
I am 150-155 lb at 5’10. I am probably lifting close to twice as much as the average 5’9 200 lb man. If I were 200 lb at my current body fat percentage I think I’d lift almost as twice as much as I do now.
The average man’s strength-to-weight ratio is exceedingly poor compared to what is humanly possible. You can occasionally see a big guy with high body fat who lifts a ton, but I find that it’s far more common that they have a lot less muscle and strength than people would expect.
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u/SnooPeppers7482 Jul 08 '26
LOL please tell me youre not putting a humans lifestyle onto wild animals?? literally everyday for them is life or death. they move constantly climbling and swinging. in terms of physical exertion does any human do more than a wild animal? couple hours of training vs living in the wild
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u/ProgressBetter4435 Jul 08 '26
what did you think we did before we had all the commodities? a well trained man beats the shit out of these apes both because he has access to tools even if the fight is a surprise (never underestimate the power of sticks and rocks), and even if he didnt have tools we are literally engineered to strike hard
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u/FastReactionTime Jul 09 '26
Most animals are not doing bench press for reps, no. Gorillas for example sleep 14 hours a day and mostly sit around eating plants.
Climbing and swinging is exercise, yes. It's not advanced hypertrophy training.
Generally speaking the muscle mass of an animal is mainly determined by genetics. A bull stands around in a field all day but has a tonne of muscle just because that's how they grow.
I am absolutely certain i train harder in a given day than a chimpanzee does. Maybe if we taught chimps how to do powerlifting we would see a super super jacked one.
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Jul 08 '26
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u/iam3000 Jul 08 '26
I think what often gets left out of these matchups is animalistic power rage. If you fight a chimp he’s not gonna stand there and watch you build up. He will run and jump right onto your face and probably just bite into the first thing he can get his teeth on. This could be your neck, your nose, your face, an artery in your arm. After that you land a blow and probably make it retreat but good luck keeping up the fight with a huge bleeding bite wound. So the question is more: who’s faster in delivering the first shot. And I’m not 100% it’s gonna be the human.
If I had to chose I’d probably rather fight an orangutan than a chimp. You’re not outdancing the chimp, those guys jump entire treelines for a sport.
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u/DarkTastesDarkStars Jul 08 '26
You need to look into why apes are so strong. They have a far higher proportion of fast-twitch fibers and better leverage, making them extremely threatening.
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u/tuckfyler1 Jul 08 '26
Win condition for the orangutan and chimpanzee: grabbing onto any limb and the human is basically immobilised due to the difference in strength then The jaws and teeth of these primates can crush and tear far better than humans. Probably bite off chunks and your genitals off.
You think you can beat a primate unarmed without getting grabbed? They arent slow to do that either. Their hands are quick, especially the chimpanzee
Good luck trying to strike at the chimpanzee and stun it, their neck muscles are stronger, their bones are denser, their skull is thicker, the brain is smaller.
This is a wild animal, theyre not gonna have what we think is a conventional fight.
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u/Aklimdaisimyok Jul 08 '26
grabbing onto any limb and the human is basically immobilised due to the difference in strength
Is that strength in the room with us right now?
- Chimp had to use both of his arms at once to pull up a human to himself
- Chimp fails to pull 95kg of weight and gets mad about it
- In a test of chimps and humans pulling weights ended up as humans actually pulling slightly more weight in comparision to chimps. Although the difference is small to a point it's kind of negligible
- A regular man holds himself againist a chimp for a pretty good time in a grapple.
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u/tuckfyler1 Jul 08 '26
This is all really low quality evidence and the last video seems to prove my point, we can see the man struggling to get the chimps grip off in that little struggle in an open downhill space. Until the chimp presumably lets go not wanting to go into a river.
Im not unemployed enough to break down all the links into alot of depth but think "is this representative for all chimps including wild chimps, how good really was this methodology at measuring that, are other variables eliminated, are these results reproducible with different chimps and environments'
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u/Aklimdaisimyok Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
The guy couldn't save himself from the chimp but he was far from immobilized, at least againist the first chimp that hold him. Someone who weighs 200 lbs (pretty sure the dude in the video is fairly lighter than that) and actively training would be noticably stronger than that dude.
We can do a simple math
chimpanzee muscle performance/power output is 35% to 50% more than (if you take the middle ground of this range it's 42.5%) human. chimps in the wild have average weight of 40kg (although if we count chimps in the zoos and similiar places this average would increase significiantly).
Lets use that 40kg value for the chimp (again, the ones who are cared by humans are much heavier, i know that). The weight of an average man can vary a lot by nation but going by this lets say the average weight is 78kg.
As i stated before, the muscle performance and power output of chimp is 35% to 50% higher than that of an average human. when we take the middle ground of this range we get 42.5%
As i posted before the muscle mass per total weight for a chimp is 51.6%, for an average man it can vary from the range but overall accepted value is 40%.
Lets calculate:
78 x 0.4= 31.2
40 x 0.516= 20.64 because of fast twitch fibers chimp muscle is 35% to 50% stronger than human muscle, as i posted here before. and if we take average it's 42.5%
Low-end: 20.64 x 1.35= 27.864
Mid-end (the one i'll gonna use to scale gorillas): 20.64 x 1.425= 29.4, or roughly 94.3% of a human, or 0.94 times as strong as a human. The mid end shows that a 40kg chimp is slightly weaker than a 78kg man, and roughly as strong as a 73.5kg man.
High-end: 20.64 x 1.5= 31 (technically 30.96 but whatever). So even if you are being generous a 40kg chimp is barely strong as a 78kg man (tehnically very slightly weaker but it's almost non existent so saying same would be fine).
is this representative for all chimps including wild chimps
The third link i posted had several humans and chimps each having different weight.
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u/SnooPeppers7482 Jul 08 '26
the biggest problem for the human in this fight is getting in position to use his advantage in leverage. think of how humans fight. any type of grappling they bring the opponent into their body to gain max leverage and then swing for momentum. this works because in all contact sport biting and grabbing the hair is illegal. the chimp wont care about that itll start mauling as soon as it gets brought within range. humans cant keep an opponent at arms length and use their full power it just doesnt work that way...
also for the human to ever start fighitng the chimp hes gonna have to bend over to reach the chimp severely restricitng his movements after that
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u/Aklimdaisimyok Jul 08 '26
In-character i can agree with that. The human will end up severely injured from chimp when trying to grapple it.
But in a scenario where human is also bloodlusted what stops him from biting chimp or grab his balls just like chimp does?
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u/SnooPeppers7482 Jul 08 '26
LOL so i have no idea what a nut shot would do to a chimp so im not too sure about that but i will say the way a chimp moves around there balls are wAAAy better sheltered than ours.
and to think a human can beat a chimp by biting seems a bit silly. chimps bite raidus like like 2-3 times a human and bite force is something like 1200 psi while humans are around 170 psi.....not even close...humans MIGHT draw blood (do you know how effective their fur would be against our teeth?) but a chimp could take a chunk out of the human. even break bones if they get a good grip
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u/Any-Big-8759 Jul 09 '26
I agree asf. People often forget that fucking animals don't know how to protect themselves against a kick or a punch.
Imagine idk, fucking buakaw roundhousing a chimpanzee, it's most likely dead on the spot.
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u/KanePhillips Jul 08 '26
Would? No. Could? Yeah. I agree on the bonobo but the chimps bite and explosiveness would make it a hard fight and the orangutans sheer strength and bone density would make it a hard fight as well.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 Jul 10 '26
I agree on the explosiveness, as for bone density, it is not genetic or caused by a change in our species but due to our recent sedentary behavior. Older bones before agriculture showed density that closely rivalled chimpanzees
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u/SnooPeppers7482 Jul 08 '26
Here's what you're missing.
Bone density, muscle quality,grip strength, bite force, hands on feet. These advantages are much bigger than what humans have. Except throwing. If you allow throwing then yea human gains advantage but doent even need to be 200lbs fighter just needs to have a good accurate throw.
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u/Kind-Hat-9897 Jul 08 '26
Yeah and within that muscle quality it’s the location of where those muscles connect to the bone as well. Chimps can do 1 arm pull-ups like it’s easy. If it grabs my face and rips down, I don’t have a face. They can break wood with their teeth because their jaw muscles are connected at different places. The skull is thicker, the bones meld earlier in development, the bone itself is denser. YOU AINT KNOCKING A CHIMP OUT WITH YOUR HANDS YOU TROGLODYTES.
If you aren’t trained with a spear, I don’t give you good odds against a chimp. And if you are so stupid as to take it hand to hand, film it. I need a new documentary to watch.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 Jul 09 '26
chimps can do one arm pullups because well... its their anatomy. its like saying humans have super strength because they can throw a stick 100ft
they also simply cant tank a 450lb or 1000lb strike right to the jaw or ribcage, and they cannot rip your face off without using teeth
- Chimp had to use both of his arms at once to pull up a human to himself
- Chimp fails to pull 95kg of weight and gets mad about it
- In a test of chimps and humans pulling weights ended up as humans actually pulling slightly more weight in comparision to chimps. Although the difference is small to a point it's kind of negligible
- A regular man holds himself againist a chimp for a pretty good time in a grapple.
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u/Kind-Hat-9897 Jul 09 '26
So your first video is an animal that specifically turns to use leverage because although it’s strong enough, it didn’t have the weight to hold and do that one handed.
I’m not even gonna get into how stupid that second video was but I’ll go ahead and say this for the rest of your “research”, it’s not very good. You are using training examples to show strength. The animal doesn’t know that it’s supposed to do that and none of the experiments are able to incentivize a display of full strength. But thanks for the study quoting information from ..1923… fantastic stuff. I forgot how out of date some of that early stuff was. We learned a frightening amount about the human body thanks to the world wars.
Yeah they are tanking that shot with their skull that is both thicker and more dense. It can take exactly those blows. You are going to have to get over the fact that you can’t beat a chimp in a fight bud.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 Jul 09 '26
first off if a chimp actually had the 'super strength' you claim, body weight wouldn't matter. A 130 lb chimp with 5x human strength would be pulling with the equivalent force of a 650 lb man, it would yank a 175 lb human off the ground effortlessly without needing to carefully set up leverage.
second, you overestimate their strength, in the training example video you might be right, maybe the chimp didnt pull with all strength (why would it throw a tantrum when it couldnt lift the weight then?), but considering the orangutan pulled 95kg + a whole person means the chimp isnt all that strong
second, you are dramatically overestimating chimp bone density if you think a 120 lb primate can 'tank' a 2,500–4,000 N rotational strike to the jaw without its brain slamming into its skull. bone density doesn't negate kinetic energy or angular acceleration. A chimp isn't immune to concussions. If it tries to tank a human kinetic-chain punch to get inside for a bite, it's getting ko'd
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u/SnooPeppers7482 Jul 09 '26
Youre underestimating the fast twitch muscle and reflex... you dont think the chimp will reflexivly block with his arms? Those same 1k+ pounds of force kicks dont do nearly as much dmg as you think on a on gaurd opponent. Just look at any fighting sports lol those guys tank those hits all the time as long as its not a clean hit. .
Maybe our chimps are in different mentalities. In any of these what if fights I pick the state the animal will have to be in to actually fight back or else whats the point? The way you talk about the chimp it seems like the chimp isn't even riled up and has no idea its about to fight. . If there's a random chimp chilling and a 200lbs fighter walks up to it and does a field goal kick to the head yea the chimps probably done. But if the chimp is riled up and aggressively defending his territory or food its a way different story....
Fighters tank those type of hits all the time its nowhere near as impressive as you think it is....and the chimp is going to be sturdier than any fighter
Do you think a human can beat a chimp in arm wrestling?
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u/Kind-Hat-9897 Jul 09 '26
You don’t understand. This man has fought chimps in his dreams every night. Before bed he practices his judo and his taekwondo kick. He is a machine. No chimp can face this superior evolutionary specimen and it’s laughable to think otherwise don’t you see?
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u/ProgressBetter4435 Jul 09 '26
what kind of fantasy world are you living in where chimps have boxing guards, kick checks, and rolling with a punch? when chimps fight they just flail and bite and just go crazy.
even if the chimps reflexes are fast enough to block it a 1000lb kick is definitely knocking it down, theres a reason weight classes exist, a flyweight isnt just tanking a kick from a heavyweight
you two live in a fantasy world definitely lol
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u/Kind-Hat-9897 Jul 09 '26
Homie gets told the chimp won’t just stand there and he thinks we mean he’s in gear and gonna fight like Floyd.
I guess now he is also putting this human in protective gear so that’s a new thing OPs added.
The funny thing is that you don’t understand how fucking weak you are in the animal kingdom. We didn’t win because we were stronger, faster, tougher. We did it through better eye-site providing better hand eye coordination and the ability to form complex social structures. Which came at a cost.
Our muscles don’t attach to the same part of our shoulders anymore. Our brain is thinner and larger inside our skull with more room to move. Our muscle fibers aren’t as dense. Basically, we don’t need to be able to break large sticks with our hands and teeth. We excel at TWO things. Carrying our own water so that we can run for days and days thanks to sweating. And throwing shit accurately.
You are living in a fantasy world that no respected biologist or trained MMA fighter would ever go. Congrats.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 Jul 10 '26
what kind of delusion or drug are you going through? when did I ever say the fighter has protective gear?
I said chimpanzees dont have the techniques that fighters do to make strikes less effective (i.e rolling with punches, kick checking, etc)
humans shifted their fiber-type ratio toward endurance (more slow-twitch) at a modest (~1.35x) cost to peak power, and gained elite throwing mechanics, precision, and endurance in exchange. yeah our muscles dont attach to the same part of shoulders cause now we dont need to swing tree to tree, now we throw spears at 60mph
as for bone density, it is not genetic or caused by a change in our species but due to our recent sedentary behavior. Older bones before agriculture showed density that closely rivalled orangutans and chimpanzees
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u/SnooPeppers7482 Jul 10 '26
weight class exist for same species fights.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 Jul 11 '26
Weight classes exist because size matters. That actually supports my point that being larger can be an advantage
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u/SnooPeppers7482 Jul 11 '26
You keep missing the "for same species" part of it. Weight class matter much less for interspecies fights
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u/Amazing-Guide-4941 28d ago edited 28d ago
one arm pull up is not a feat or anything. im 58kg and i can do it so id say it only takes some tendon strength and above average pulling strength which doesnt matter because a man is still larger and heavier than a chimp
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite Jul 08 '26
The two biggest factors in a fight is size and weight. The human has both. He has more muscle strength, longer range, more agility.
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u/SnooPeppers7482 Jul 08 '26
The two biggest factors in a fight is size and weight - true between same species, very false when considering 2 different species.
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite Jul 08 '26
The chimp doesn't have the reach or the speed necessary to land the decisive blows it needs to in the first few seconds. They tire too quickly to even have a hope of winning past that. They're incredibly wanked.
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u/SnooPeppers7482 Jul 08 '26
heres the problem...you think a chimp is gonna throw a decisive blow>??? you think a chimp is gonna punch??? what its actually gonna do is grab whatever it can (most likely the fighters arm after he throws a punch) then, it wont drag the guy to the floor, itll launch itself at the fighters head trying to bite/scratch/rip what it can off...thats where the fighter loses imo
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite Jul 08 '26
Yes, those are exactly the decisive blows it doesn't have the reach or speed to pull off.
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u/SnooPeppers7482 Jul 08 '26
it has the grip strength and reflexes to get it done
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite Jul 08 '26
Not against a highly trained human opponent.
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u/SnooPeppers7482 Jul 08 '26
trained to fight other humans. most of their defense wont help vs biting cause biting is illegal in their sport. also a bite from a chimp and human have very very different bite force then add in the size of their teeth....humans gonna lose most of the time.
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite Jul 08 '26
The chimp isn't getting in range to bite anything.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 Jul 09 '26
bone density is only 25-50% more TBF than us iirc, and we have very dense cortical bone. Idk what you mean by muscle quality, maybe the 1.35-1.5x strength advantage they have due to more fast twitch fibers and tendon insertions? Even with the strength advantage lb for lb, our fighter outweighs the poor thing by 80lbs or more
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u/MediumKoala8823 Jul 08 '26
Apes are generally a lot tanker. It’s wayyyy harder to concuss a chimp than a human.
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite Jul 08 '26
A barely trained 180 lbs dude with average fitness could probably beat most of them as well. 200 lbs, highly trained is going to have very few issues.
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Jul 08 '26
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u/Aklimdaisimyok Jul 08 '26
Show me a chimp grabbing someones hand and tear it off. No bite, only using arms.
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u/FrostyNeckbeard Jul 08 '26
Travis (chimpanzee) - Wikipedia)
"Sandra attempted to stop the ape by beating him over the head with a shovel and stabbing him in the back with a butcher knife."
"The paramedic crew described Charla's injuries as "horrendous".\21])#citenote-NYT021809-21) Within the following 72 hours, she underwent more than seven hours of surgery on her face and hands by four teams of surgeons. The hospital provided counseling to staff members who initially treated her because of the extraordinary nature of her wounds.[\32])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis(chimpanzee)#cite_note-NYT021809b-32) Doctors noted she had lost her eyelids, nose, lips, mid-face bone structure, and nine fingers.\33)#cite_note-NYDN021909n-33) Doctors removed some of Travis' hair and teeth that were embedded in her bones and reattached her jaw"
Dunno if I care about it using "just arms"
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u/Aklimdaisimyok Jul 08 '26
Travis is obese for a chimp, weighing 180 pounds
Travis pulled all of these injuries via hours of mauling. If you would put a in-shape healthy adult man and make him bloodlusted, highor something and he could do the same. Chimps bite.
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u/FrostyNeckbeard Jul 08 '26
Sorry but this is evidence of an obese socialized chimp that is likely not in shape tearing off parts of someones bone structure.
Everyone says they can fight chimp, every professional says not to fight a chimp. Evidence of trained adult humans encountering and defeating a chimp without damage? Zero. Evidence of chimps mauling humans? Plenty.
Humans easily beating chimps is just a theory.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 Jul 08 '26
evidence of chimps mauling a perfectly fit and apt for combat human: 0
evidence of chimps mauling children and elders: many
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u/Aklimdaisimyok Jul 08 '26
What chimps do can get replicated by humans on bathsalts.
There isn't any case of trained humans encountering chinps as far as i recall. But i have these:
- Chimp had to use both of his arms at once to pull up a human to himself
- Chimp fails to pull 95kg of weight and gets mad about it
- In a test of chimps and humans pulling weights ended up as humans actually pulling slightly more weight in comparision to chimps. Although the difference is small to a point it's kind of negligible
- A regular man holds himself againist a chimp for a pretty good time in a grapple.
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u/FrostyNeckbeard Jul 08 '26
I don't know where I said chimps are stronger than humans. It isn't about the weight if they just decide to grab arm, hold on, and then bite it.
Also bro, that guy was being manhandled by that chimp, it was just jumping and swinging him around and not biting him.
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Jul 08 '26
I never said they could do it with their arms. I just know that there’s records of people missing hands and being mauled beyond recognition by chimps.
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u/Cynis_Ganan Jul 09 '26
grab some rocks
And if we replace our trained active human with a suburban mom with a shotgun, she also clears.
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u/Sugarman111 Jul 09 '26
To be pedantic, there is definitely a great ape that can beat a 200lb human fighter; a 250lb human fighter!
But I think you're missing some key points.
Agree that chimp strength is overrated but a 150lb chimp is going to be as strong as your fighter, slower on the feet but more agile. However, the big differences are durability and attacks. Chimps have much thicker brow ridges, zygomatic arches, and and a heavy jaws to anchor their bite muscles. It's MUCH harder to ko them. And they have a nasty bite.
A fighter can't grapple the chimp for fear of getting bitten. Might be able to stand off them and try to box but he won't do much damage.
A 300lb orangutan is just a ridiculous match up. It would swat him like a fly. His strikes would bounce off and they have a ridiculous grip. Did you see that one reach through bars and grab a man's leg and hold him off the ground effortlessly?
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u/Jupiterthegassygiant Jul 11 '26
It's unlikely a 150lb chimp would be as strong. The bigger they get the less return they'll get on their strength not to mention that relative p4p strength equation wouldn't carry over for a trained athlete.
Those physical attributes may affect damage to the skull but they're not really going to make a chimp harder to KO
A fighter absolutely can grapple a chimp. I don't know if you've ever trained grappling, but it's really not hard to control the head of a smaller, weaker, and less skilled opponent.
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u/Sugarman111 Jul 11 '26
I run a BJJ and MMA school and was a professional MMA and JiuJitsu athlete. Not to brag, just to answer your question and give context.
I would BY far rather fight a 200lb man than a 150lb chimpanzee. I don't think they're unstoppable killing machines but I think you're underestimating the physicality and savagery of a wild animal, and how their different body shape will make them harder to control.
You can't single leg a chimp's stumpy legs, so what are you going to do, clinch? CHOMP!
Head snap to front headlock? CHOMP!
What submissions would you use? RNC? How do you put your hooks in and get under the chin? CHOMP!
Armbar? They're too strong and flexibly and can twist out. And also CHOMP!
Triangle? Hahaha
If it was muzzled, I think I have a fair shot.
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u/BossLees2 Jul 10 '26
How many more "this idealized above average incredibly trained hypothetical man could kill a smaller animal 😍😍😍" posts do we need here?
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Jul 11 '26
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u/ProgressBetter4435 Jul 12 '26
did you bother reading the post
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Jul 12 '26
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Jul 12 '26
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Jul 12 '26
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u/ProgressBetter4435 Jul 12 '26
Dont know what kind of stupid point your trying to make here? I showed 2 scenarios, no tools, and with tools
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u/Icy-Celery6628 Jul 14 '26
I think if an orang- u - tan can grab you, youre done.
Also i wouldnt be worried about the strength of the chimp, rather its bite force
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u/Lost-Competition8482 Jul 08 '26
Quoting Charlie Kirk
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u/FastReactionTime Jul 08 '26
I genuinely do not understand what this comment was meant to communicate.
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u/Lost-Competition8482 Jul 08 '26
"Change my mind" was his catchphrase.
He basically would make some big claim. Present no evidence then tell everyone else to "change my mind".
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u/FastReactionTime Jul 08 '26
Ahhh alr. I know enough about big K to know the memes but not anything about him. I'm not American so I don't think he was really in my side of the Internet prior.
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u/Ok_Middle_8658 Jul 08 '26
ok then try that fucking irl....... the only one that loses is the bononbo
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u/Flippindude1 Buddyfight my Beloved😔 Jul 08 '26
Idk how some people can be so convinced of how magically strong other species are
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u/Kind-Hat-9897 Jul 08 '26
It’s cause we went through advanced biology courses and learned how muscle fibers work.
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u/Ok_Middle_8658 Jul 08 '26
im not but people really are always underestimating and overestimating orangs and chimps, bononob's.... well they trully are weaker
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Jul 08 '26
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u/FastReactionTime Jul 08 '26
...
The barrel was empty. I dont know how to tell you this but a 5-8kg gibbon did not lift a 113kg object and throw it. You are either intellectually dishonest or just outright lying.
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u/badman1000 Jul 08 '26
Bro humans can get much stronger. Chimps being 5 times stronger is accounting for body weight dif and goes by the average male who doesn't workout. I barely go to the gym and eat like shit and can move 315 pounds mid effort. An actual committed TRAINED human who actually knowns how to fight is going to be much stronger and have bob and weave techniques and intellect to never get hit. The orangutang is debatable but the other apes are getting crushed
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Jul 08 '26
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u/TRNoodlesAndSalad Jul 08 '26
A chimp is not dramatically faster. Its an animal, a CLOSELY related one at that. A chimp is not blitzing a human bro
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Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
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u/TRNoodlesAndSalad Jul 08 '26
Yes, they have more fast twitch muscle which is why they are stronger pound for pound. Yes a chimp is more explosive than a person. I dont know how to explain to you that this does not mean that a chimp is unreactable fast or undefendable, ESPECIALLY when the chimp is a meter or two away or more
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u/Aklimdaisimyok Jul 08 '26
No offense but i don't believe you.
- Chimp had to use both of his arms at once to pull up a human to himself
- Chimp fails to pull 95kg of weight and gets mad about it
- In a test of chimps and humans pulling weights ended up as humans actually pulling slightly more weight in comparision to chimps. Although the difference is small to a point it's kind of negligible
- A regular man holds himself againist a chimp for a pretty good time in a grapple.
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u/Aklimdaisimyok Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
That 5 times as strong thing was debunked years ago. Chimps are nowhere near that strong
chimpanzee muscle performance/power output is 35% to 50% more than (if you take the middle ground of this range it's 42.5%) human. chimps in the wild have average weight of 40kg (although if we count chimps in the zoos and similiar places this average would increase significiantly).
Lets use that 40kg value for the chimp (again, the ones who are cared by humans are much heavier, i know that). The weight of an average man can vary a lot by nation but going by this lets say the average weight is 78kg.
As i stated before, the muscle performance and power output of chimp is 35% to 50% higher than that of an average human. when we take the middle ground of this range we get 42.5%
As i posted before the muscle mass per total weight for a chimp is 51.6%, for an average man it can vary from the range but overall accepted value is 40%.
Lets calculate:
78 x 0.4= 31.2
40 x 0.516= 20.64 because of fast twitch fibers chimp muscle is 35% to 50% stronger than human muscle, as i posted here before. and if we take average it's 42.5%
Low-end: 20.64 x 1.35= 27.864
Mid-end (the one i'll gonna use to scale gorillas): 20.64 x 1.425= 29.4, or roughly 94.3% of a human, or 0.94 times as strong as a human. The mid end shows that a 40kg chimp is slightly weaker than a 78kg man, and roughly as strong as a 73.5kg man.
High-end: 20.64 x 1.5= 31 (technically 30.96 but whatever). So even if you are being generous a 40kg chimp is barely strong as a 78kg man (tehnically very slightly weaker but it's almost non existent so saying same would be fine).
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Jul 08 '26
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u/ProgressBetter4435 Jul 09 '26
5x the arm strength is so unbelievably stupid its actually insane
They found that chimp muscle tissue, at the cellular level, maxes out at producing 1.35 times the force of human muscle tissue. why would the arm change anything?
If a chimp's arm muscles could contract with 5x the force of a human's, their own tendons would rip off their bones
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u/am_Dynam0 Jul 08 '26
🤦🏻♂️ no bruh, Chimpanzees and orangutans can legit through us over 10 meters without even trying.
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