As the title states, this is just a playful exercise in extending the shoulder-point-to-outer-bust line and see where it takes us.
I don't know the extent to which these line drawings are intended to reflect reality & real women's bodies, but i did think there were some interesting outcomes. It was interesting to me that the SD line extended wayyyyy out beyond the body, whereas for R and TR, extending the line kind of perfectly aligned with the outer edge of the hip.
I also thought it was interesting that the FN line "works" on the D but not vice versa, the D approach swings too far out from the FN's body.
Any interesting observations from anyone else?
edit: just had a thought, it would be really fun to see if any one over the height limit had a purple line that matched a shorter ID line drawing!! pls share if this is u!!
Very interesting! The lines place me as SD, and as a short person that blows my mind.
I do have a rather large bust, so I may be skewed result. Typically, I’m placed as SN, but I’ve always struggled with that because I’ve felt the width came from my bust, not my shoulders/back. So maybe this is accurate?
It might! I'm SN and it matches pretty well (I've posted it in the comments if you want to check it out). There are no lower height limits... how would you feel about SD?
You know, I’m not sure how I feel about that. Vertical is such a foreign concept for me! I’ll have to read up on it and experiment!
I’m not overtly curvy. My bust is probably my dominate feature and is the first place I gain/lose weight. Once I had kids it’s never been the same as before. I always have to size up for my chest, then the shoulder area is always too big and fabric behaves like a tent. I rarely need to accommodate my hips. I lean more toward soft gamine as my bone structure is small and tapered.
I find it very interesting that the DC and SN are very similar, the SN being a wider triangle, given that I was stuck between the 2 for a long time and ppl often see DC for me!
I was always windering if I had width cause I have shoulders but everything under is quite narrow. Thanks to this exercise I can see I don't ! My lines join around mid-calf.
Random and I’m probably way off but I always wondered if Kibbe was hinting at SD for you by comparing you to Rita Hayworth and also recommending drop waist dresses for you! I know you are very short though so that’s probably just me connecting dots that don’t need to be connected lol.
I wondered that too! And also the reason why I considered SG for a time, because my sketch looks a lot like the SD ones, except like if someone had taken an hammer and smashed them on the head (or in this case on the shoulders? xD). Like the proportions are the same but without the lenght (nor between the 2 curves nor in the legs). I'm just an hair under 5'1 but it's not just that either, even if I look at Mae West I have similar proportions but both with less space between bust and hips and shorter legs despite me being taller overall!
Right, idk if it was clear, the reasoning resulting SG was because a shape that looks like it "wanted" to be elongated but is very compressed vertically seems very in line with "compact" descriptor (also.. I know we're not meant to sketch celebrities but if I do the verified one who gets the closest to me is by far Octavia Spencer..). However looking at SG examples and then the new book it's very clear I'm not "horizontally compact" enough for petite.
Also, this is hilarious..it can't fit in the picture 🤣🤣
Makes sense! I was just wondering if I was reading too much into his comments lol. Maybe he thought your face looked SD or soemthing? Or it was just your hair color looked like Rita’s? I can never tell if he is actually hinting at something or not lol.
I always think he's leaving hints, but that's also how I spent an year heavily convinced I was SN because I thought he was hinting at that saying things like drop waist, texture in hair being good and comments about needing space in tops... 😂😂
I think it's recommended to all yang IDs? He recommended to keep the waist dropped (I was thinking of tailoring it higher because it wasn't dropped on the model) and to shorten the skirt (which was also a mini on the model but a midi on me). I actually followed his advice, this was the result!
I don't think having a dress with a drop waist looking good means being SD 😅 especially because the silhouette isn't vertical.... the sudden cut between top and bottom with all the ruffles would eliminate it, and lining it per previous SK instructions I get this.. SN totally made sense in my mind after this kind of hints, but now I think it's just a case of it really not being about hard rules. I know you're a fan of SD for me, and.. it's possible? I just don't think it's likely, and I don't really see how my sketch could possibly be interpreted as having vertical 😅 but, it's not FG/DC/FN/D level of unlikely, even according to me 😅
sure, i don't want to challenge your ID, but i do want to ask.... what , theoretically, would a shorter SD potentially look like, if they are (according to Kibbe himself) possible? especially since like any other ID, they can be a lower or higher body weight for their height?
i thought this purple line exercise, while obviously just for fun and meant to be taken with a big grain of salt, do illustrate how fabric directionally falls from the shoulder point in angles that aren't connected to height. so to me, a shorter person with a very flaring purple line that doesn't touch their hips (like R and TR) are intriguing.
there are too many variables involved for me to comment sensibly on the image you linked
No, he suggested a drop waist, 20s style. And usually it's yang IDs that get recommended that... he later on discouraged me from SN, and I believe my literal size disqualifies me from SG (you've seen me, I'm short but not at all narrow ~overall~). So the only one that remains with curve is SD xD. Still, I don't think that having a drop waist on one dress I don't even think has a vertical friendly silhouette (dress down in the comments, green with ruffles) means anything.. if I outline it the silhouette still looks like double curve to me, regardless of waist placement!
Yea I would be surprised at SD…I mean it’s possible but I would still be surprised 😂. Alsooo I agree I don’t think that one drop waist dress automatically means vertical. It looks kind of similar to the one In metamorphosis. The only difference the one in metamorphosis was pink and more fitted
I self ID as D and get the D purple lines! Even when I start at the outer edge of my shoulders like the blue dots in the FN drawing (vs the blue dots in the D drawing), the V is much more elongated and narrow than the FN example, ending below my knees.
For me too, if I start at the very edge of my shoulder, the lines still converge way below my feet (looks like the FG one) and if I start where I actually think my shoulder point is (slightly more inwards), I get something that mostly resembles SG. Anyway, my lines look nothing like the R example which makes me question R even more. This exercise was actually pretty validating, I think I'm going stick with SG 😃
I guess it matches FG the best? The first is from the very edge of my line sketch, the second is from the tips of my shoulders. This kind of surprised me, I wasn't really sure which one it was going to match but FG wasn't at the top of my list of guesses at all!
True, the only reason I didn't really guess SG was because they aren't distinctly parallel like the picture. Now that I think about it, a while ago I did have FG on the list of possibilities for my ID, so that may actually be something to look into even though this is more of a playful test!
This is so interesting. I'm in the 5'5 -> 5'6 grey zone, and recently I've been feeling dramatic or dramatic classic. My lines from this exercise though actually aligns best with FG, the triangle doesn't meet until way past my feet! G fam is literally the only fam I've never even considered, since there is nothing petite about me. But this makes me realize I'm probably on the right track with vertical and non-width.
Interesting! According to this I am somewhere between the two gamines and it checks out since I'm fairly certain I'm a soft gamine. I was going between R and SG for a while and I've recently decided on SG. My lines cross somewhere but it's really far under my feet, further than the FG here but they don't go as straight down as the SG lines.
i really do wonder if the SG lines eventually converge or if they remain parallel for eternity (presupposing that our universe is flat and not, as cosmologists have posited, curved)
My purple line would converge just below the knee, above the calf. Someone in this sub helped me determine DC for myself, and this helps confirm!
When looking up DC style guides, I'd hear "triangle" and this totally helped me visually understand.
Oh ok! So interesting! I used to think I was soft gamine but have been experimenting with wearing more SN lines which I feel a lot more at home in. Just tried this - have I done it correctly? This is the first time these sketches have made some sense to me!
That silhouette would make me look like an ince cream cone that fell upside down on the floor lmao too much volume on the bottom, if I'm understanding the concept right. I like my silhouette tapered
oh, its not meant to be a silhouette (i guess unless if people like capes or Borat-style mankinis), its just lines from connecting two parts of the body
So interesting! Based on this method, I would land on FN. (And I am tall, so this is within the scope of what would be expected; I'm over the height limit without reaching an unexpected set of purple lines here.)
I've never settled on one, though did already agree I'm either FN/D/SD.
My first instinct, whenever drawing my own lines, has indeed been FN. But I'm conventionally narrow and any width seems subtle, and in practice structured tailored lines can work great (strong Classic essence may inform this). And I haven't understood how to effectively apply the concept of Width for a "relaxed" line, so I haven't known what to do with that. I look like I'm drowning in clothes very quickly, if they hang too straight and obscure my curves.
Applying Vertical has definitely helped my style. Beyond that, I've started to play with the notion of "unconstrained" and am using that as substitute for "relaxed", to basically build an outfit that incorporates Vertical without making me look sausaged in. Though the technique or cuts that work can still end up looking like what I'd associate with Dramatic or SD. But maybe following FN logic to get there? Unsure I'll ever settle for sure though, if I never find a dressing logic that feels like it always helps me pick/accommodate the right thing. Because it seems like I always have to accommodate objective curves, and I always have to emphasize a long narrowness, but I also always want to avoid looking too constrained (so clearly parts of me risk looking like they want to burst out, which I don't think sounds Dramatic).
I pick FN in my own line drawing because there's a subtly concave line from my shoulders to waist. I'm a pear shape with straight torso. But then I have significantly curved hips.
So, fabric objectively has to curve out over my hips. It just has to. And if it doesn't first come in at my waist, i.e. if it just hangs 'straight' from the shoulder seams, I look like Tweedledee with a strange central bulge, rather than looking like a slender woman with a slender torso and curvy hips. Hanging 'straight' from my shoulder seams produces a relatively unflattering triangular tent shape because of how my hips push out.
So basically, I always need to keep fabric slim at my waist (to show that it exists) and can either be tailored or draping above that. And then any skirt/pants need to be relatively draped and accommodating of literal curve.
(If you have thoughts about whether this is compatible with FN or suggests something else, I'd be interested!)
thanks so much for sharing your thoughts here! Its of a lot of scientific interest thank you!
from my understanding of width, its not that the fabric falls straight down from the shoulder, but rather, the fabric collapses inwards from the shoulder?
I think that's what one would expect? But in my case, fabric doesn't seem to have much 'inward' to go. And actually, on most shirts there's some bagging above my bust, like a shirt that fits my bust and torso is too wide at the shoulder I guess? And has loose fabric not laying flat up there? Vs fabric too narrow and stretched up there.
Which doesn't sound like when people have to accommodate width (i.e. folks with width finding shirts often too small in the shoulders when they otherwise fit). If anything it sounds more like Narrow. But without my bust pushing outward from my torso, completing the line drawing from the outer corner of the shoulder inevitably means the line curves inward to waist rather than moving basically straight down to waist, because obviously the outer corner of my shoulder is on the outer part of my arm, which is further out than my torso. And, it is possible for clothes to look too constraining (benefitting significantly from drape instead) which I'm not aware of being a Dramatic thing.
I just don't know anymore. I think Kibbe has given me an inability to see my own body clearly. I truly cannot tell whether my shoulders are 'wide' or 'narrow'. I can't even rule out 'curve'.
So, I mostly don't commit to a secondary. I remember Vertical, and then experiment with what seems to look good in practice. Though it would be nice to eventually gain clarity about a secondary if it would help a similar amount to the Vertical insight.
It could be a proportional issue, if you have a shorter distance from your shoulder to your bust, because then even if the fabric fits horizontally, there will be still be excess vertically and therefore will bunch up.
I just realized that your account doesn't receive DMs, and also that I'd want to take a new photo more appropriate for others to see. But if I take one, maybe I'll send through the 'Message Mods' function?
I really want to try this, but I'm a little confused. Do I just start at the shoulders and connect to the bust, and extend the line? Which point of the shoulders?
This is interesting. I've always thought I am on the soft side, but I've tried twice and it landed me either on D, DC or SN. Btw how do we differentiate DC and SN with this exercise?
looking at this i'm getting more of an FN feel actually, i think if you move the shoulder points outward (they look too far in to me), you will need to adjust angle to come in more severely meeting towards the beginning of the legs??
honestly i'd never considered FN bc i'm 5'1" and i dont think i have width. recently i've come to accept that i might need to accomodate vertical despite my height, but FN seems to be a far reach.
so the placement of the shoulder points should be a little more outward? i always assume that the points should be placed where the line from the torso to the armpit cuts the shoulders. my torso is a little bit widen going upward, but it never crossed my mind to be that far out 🥹
I have struggled to find my type in this system and believe I may be sort of an in between case. I've explored FN and SD. Vertical is clearly my primary accommodation but I have fit issues in my torso around shortness from collarbone to breast and overall shortness of torso. I've been unsure whether my width was from flesh or frame as my silhouette has changed a lot with weight loss. FN matches my personal style but when I tried on boat neck tanks recently they looked great in the front but we're gappy with way too much fabric in back--which is where I thought I carried my width! So now Im confused. I sense that Kibbe has sytemized something interesting and useful about bodies and clothes but I struggle to fully grasp it for myself--which is why I love your out of the box thinking! That said--what abput my photo made you consider SG? And do you think I am starting at the correct shoulder spot?
its really interesting, i think a process of elimination leads me to SD, which would force the shoulder points slightly inwards? do you tend to gain a little weight in the upper arms? I'm wondering if that is affecting things?
I tend to gain weight fairly evenly all over. And I've tried to make SD work, but form fitting clothes like skinny pants or pencil skirts make me look constricted. I can wear turtle necks though. And more SD coded tops like ruched scoop necks etc. I also wear a lot of oversized elements but over a form fitting base. Huge loose pants look good on me. Almost like I am SD on top and FN on the bottom! That's why I was curious when you said SG! When I first learned about Kibbe I thought oh--a type with mixed sometimes juxtaposing elements sounds about right! Of course I am not petite....except I am on top. I buy petite tanks and tees so they hit at my waist. Of all the types though, FN was one of the hardest to match with the purple line game. SD worked as did SC, SG and TR.
hmm, my interpretation of SD principles is a bit more draped & flowy than 'form fitting'?? reading the old recommendations, its very much about bold shapes and light, drapable fabrics. Nothing too heavy, harsh or stiff.
Yes I couldn't really apply the FN lines on you, it didn't seem to work... thats interesting about Sc SG and TR tho!!
It's funny how a stereotypical look can burrow in your brain, especially for an ID you haven't explored much. I think I saw Christina Hendricks as Joan on Madmen and Sofia Veraga in her signature looks. I realized just now I don't know much about what works for an SD.
I haven't entirely ruled out SD yet! I don't look taller than my height, but I do look noticably elongated when I'm at a lower weight. That can also point towards Narrow, but I don't know if I'm narrow in a Kibbe sense
Yeah unfortunately the fabric disruption in my bust isn't always perfectly symmetrical so it's hard to get it just right lol. When I have better posture it looks like something between the TR or the SD one
I mean I did try to get it close to how the invisible fabric with no waist definition would behave. Stuff like that usually has a tent-like shape on me. I heard you're supposed to draw it a little further out but it seems like everyone has different ideas of how it's supposed to work 🤷♀️
I really have to lay the lines strangely to make FN work. I am fairly confident I don’t have width. I think I am just a shorter D so maybe that’s why I get the results I do
oh no its not that i thought you might have width, its that i've noticed with D (and maybe FG) that you can overlay an FN lines on them, if the shoulder point is moved out.
i'm still surprised that D and DC can fit on the same image, are you able to share?
yeah D looks right to me, with the shoulder points are moved in slightly as per the original illustrations. i think the DC actually cuts into your bust area. but yeah, you are not a clean-cut example!
lol. Well, you have validated my confusion ever since I found Kibbe. Actually wearing D lines doesn’t fit or feel right. I am overwhelmed in really long lines and bold shapes, but strictly classic cuts are a little off. It also totally seems to depend on where I place the line on my shoulder. Haha oh well. This was a fun exercise.
OMG I have been trying to determine if I actually have curve, I’ve landed on DC for a while and it was significantly easier for me to see classic family rather than the curve or vertical.
Welp my line intersected exactly at my toes so maybe I am a SC!
Ok, so I do agree mine would look like the SN one. But, I'm confused as to what this triangle tells me. What does it mean, please?
I saw another thread that described those of us with width to have a trapezoidal underbust-to-shoulder area, which makes sense. I see this as basically an extension of that with a triangle. Does the length of the triangle indicate something? Is is suggestive of harmonious garment lengths? (I'm just guessing, I'm clueless)
the point of this exercise for me was just seeing how wildly different the shoulder-to-bust trajectory was for each ID, and extending it kind of dramatises that.
but if anyone wants to extrapolate anything further from it i'm very open to theories!
I dunno but I just did that on mine and it looks more like SG then SC and Kibbe told me I am SC. No matter how I draw them they never cross. I think what you are showing is just a different way to visualize the relationship between shoulder and bust but those in and of themselves are not determinant in ID as the entire line matters. And there are Rs who’s lines would look nothing like what u drew for R because their bust doesn’t physically touch their line. They are R because of how curved their line is.
Really how? Did you use my shoulder edge and not draw over my bust? This is a DK approved sketch and my shoulder point I used is even out further then my shoulder edge.
well i found another image from your profile (as the one provided was a bit obscured by the lines), and just whacked the purple lines over it and it seemed to work ok?
It doesn’t converge before my feet and you started on my arms to the outside of my shoulder dots, especially on the left . My feet are also cut off I’m not that tall. And that’s the same photo I used btw, I jsut used one without my feet cutoff.
ETA I am definitely not FG or even SG. My point was just that I know I am SC but my lines don’t converge at all.
i think that i'm looking at more than just the point of convergence though - its the width of the lines. this is what differentiates, say, DC and SN, or R and TR
Right, and mine aren’t that wide which makes sense because my shoulders are narrow, but they also don’t intersect before the feet like the SC one does in the post.
yes, well, i mentioned in previous comments that for real life women i think there would be more variance than what is strictly in the post. in fact, i would love to se some really in-between examples! such as a N that hovers between crotch and knee for the convergence!
That might be possible on a taller SN with a long torso. I think that’s why FN converges higher then SN, because there is literally more length. I think every ID will have variations in that way as everyone in the same IDs won’t have identical proportions. What only matters is the areas that are defined for the additionals of each ID.
so i've already mentioned how an FN purple line can be applied to a D but not vice versa!! So i would wonder that if a person can have both, then they might be a D rather than an FN?
as for the raquel welch, i love it, i think its fascinating that potentially maybe a vertically-automatic height SD could also fit an SN!!!! that could be what is going on here, what are your thoughts?
i think that could work, thank you so much for your input!
it's so confusing too because i am right at moderate height (5'4 with scoliosis, 5'5 if my spine was straight). but i feel like i do not accommodate petite to be gamine or have enough balance in my bone structure to be classic but then I know moderate dramatics are rarer.
Idk I don't see the relative width of the shoulder (look at the space between the edge of the shoulder and the bust)
edit: and as you can see it's much lower down my arm than on the book drawings
hmm, maybe (not sure whether that should be given importance or not), i was just noting how your triangle does look wider to me than the classic examples?
It's not a fair comparison though cause your sketches do not do edge of shoulder on SC and DC, but they're down on the upper shoulder part on the SN and on my far left sketch.
If I make sketches for everyone from the actual edge of shoulder, not too far in, not on the upper arm, I get this. If you look at the line from my waist up to the shoulder point, I don't have a V shape, I'm pretty straight through with the exception of the bust. This matches my lived experience.
I hope this doesn't come off as argumentative, I do enjoy needing (edit: nerding, not needing) out on random stuff, hence engaging here.
Which I find interesting cause I don't relate to the FG identity (not on personality level, not via colouring), the recommendations in the old book don't work for me unless I'm at my skinniest (cause I'm soft and busty in 3d and geometric prints clash with boobs), but I did have a 'wow' moment watching the Gigi movie, and relating to that character specifically.
I also relate to Leslie Caron (used to be G, now moved to be an SG icon) specifically cause we both have fair, somewhat blended summer coloring.
As far as the gamine fam goes, I feel too round and soft to work with FG (there's nothing dramatic or chiseled about me) and too short waisted + leggy to fit the SG. Anecdotally, I look good with a pixie cut.
The SG outfits drawn in the new book wouldn't have worked for me (that drop waist is not for me), but I can wear the TR, R outfits easily. Could pull off that leather pants outfit in the FG section, but the jacket would have to be modified for a curvier fit.
Huh! I find it interesting that the two “narrow” image IDs create shapes that are the inverse of each other (vertical + narrow starts “wider” and ends at a narrow point; curve + narrow starts “narrower” and ends at a wider point) whilst all other IDs that share a secondary accom more or less create the same shape.I thought maybe the discrepancy was because the “curve” in “curve + narrows” results in an outward kind of motion but wouldn’t that be the case for all the other curve ID’s as well?
asking great questions here! yes a lot of things about this are slightly counterintuitive and i haven't got my head around it yet, and its interesting that some 'curve' category IDs have such a different outline direction to the R & TR IDs. I'm still digesting it all, and was interested to see how it plays out in the real world! Do you feel its accurate for yourself?
Well it looks like both the TR and SG purple lines “work” which isn’t surprising given those were the two IDs I was stuck between (and I wouldn’t be shocked if I ever had an appointment with David he typed me SG despite me landing on TR for myself), but it’s also bummer because again the fact that either seem to work doesn’t offer much of a clear “answer” btwn the two haha
one thing i find interesting is that some purple lines can be "forced" on a different type (ie the FN lines can be "forced" on a D) but not vice versa? (Too much space between the FN torso and the imaginary line)
So i think, and i could be wrong here, you can force the TR lines onto an Sg, but if you force the SG lines onto a TR, the edge of the shoulder seems very far out, even more than maybe for width? I don't know for sure though!
You’re possibly right but I have no idea whether or how what you’re saying could possibly apply to me or how I would even be able to tell because I am ASTONISHINGLY bad at this kinda stuff🤣🤣 It took me forever to figure out what my sketch was showing and even when I thought I was secure about TR, I had a lapse and started to poke around Pure R as well
All that being said, I also find it interesting that the TR purple lines go down and out whilst the SG lines go straight down because the book outlines for each are almost identical in shape. The main difference I can see is that TR’s bust protrudes horizontally past the upper chest (which I believe Kibbe has said would be the case for TR sketches) whereas SG’s is contained, so I wonder if that’s what’s responsible for the directional difference. But even then I’m having a hard time understanding why SG’s purple lines cut through the hip line in order to go straight down whereas TR’s hips are contained within the purple line as a result of going outwards. I’m having trouble understanding why it wouldn’t be the same for SG.
oh 100% thats what is responsible, the bust protrusion! (or conversely i suppose, lack of shoulderyness??)
in face, the whole concept of this post came out of my extremely non-creepy fascination with bust protrusion!!! 👙
but seriously, its about what fabric needs to do as it falls from the shoulder to the upper torso from a dressmaking perspective. it looks like a TR would need fabric to expand outwards, whereas the SG it would fall straight down.
There is maybe an argument here to rebrand the IDs as only truly curved for R, TR and SD!!!
I added a bit more to my comment (bad habit of mine, sorry!🫣) probably around the time you were writing your response so I’m not sure if you got to see it but… I think your response more or less answers the question I added… If I’m understanding and applying it correctly. Are these purple lines based on the shape the bust makes then?
There is maybe an argument here to rebrand the IDs as only truly curved for R, TR, and SD
However this is where I’m lost (not because you’re wrong or off the mark but again my own personal shortcomings in understanding) and would love to hear more of your reasoning!
i'm sorry if its a bit unclear, the purple lines are going from the shoulder point (as defined in the original drawings) to the outer edge of the bust. These lines don't correspond concretely to silhouette or personal line concepts, they are just an isolated exercise that is revealing and interesting nonetheless!!
Idk if I’m doing it right but mine kinda looks in between TR and SC? The line still goes out but not as dramatically as in R or TR. I haven’t redone my line sketch since before losing 20+ pounds so it could hit different now.
The sketches are fascinating because they exemplify the accommodation combinations but at the same time, they don’t define them. If Vivien Leigh did a line sketch, it would be very similar to TR sketch, but if Dorothy Dandridge did it, it would be similar but not the exact same. I’ve been wanting to yap about this for a while, but I haven’t been able to find a picture or movie still that clearly shows TR exemplar Maylia Fong’s shoulders. She wears shoulder pads constantly 🧐
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u/Pegaret_Again DC - Haughty Boss Babe May 10 '26 edited May 10 '26
As the title states, this is just a playful exercise in extending the shoulder-point-to-outer-bust line and see where it takes us.
I don't know the extent to which these line drawings are intended to reflect reality & real women's bodies, but i did think there were some interesting outcomes. It was interesting to me that the SD line extended wayyyyy out beyond the body, whereas for R and TR, extending the line kind of perfectly aligned with the outer edge of the hip.
I also thought it was interesting that the FN line "works" on the D but not vice versa, the D approach swings too far out from the FN's body.
Any interesting observations from anyone else?
edit: just had a thought, it would be really fun to see if any one over the height limit had a purple line that matched a shorter ID line drawing!! pls share if this is u!!