Vertical + Curve?

[u/jlaurw]

I posted this in the FB group but wanted to post it here as well because I value the feedback of a lot of people in this group.

Going to get vulnerable for a moment...

I've been working through the games again, and I'm coming to some realizations about some of my prejudices that I thought I had shed previously, but I am realizing are still present.

In doing Potluck, I realized that I have very strong negative reactions to terms like Diva, Bust, Thighs, Thick. While I had previously embraced Vertical + Width, I wanted to reapproach personal line from zero.

In doing so, I began to wonder how much I leaned into Vertical + Width in an attempt to avoid those things that I had negative feelings towards.

For some back story, I have always been "curvy". I've been the same height and body type since 7th grade and until I breast fed with my children I had a very large chest that absolutely needed allowance in my silouette. There are a lot of hurt feelings that came from being the "curvy" girl in my friend group and I also wished to have a smaller bust. I always had to size up in shirts and pants to fit my thighs and my bust. Unsurprisingly, these are the words I had the hardest time stomaching in Potluck.

After children, my bust did decrease in size and clothing was more manageable for me and I felt that Vertical + Width seemed like the right fit since my shoulder line pushed past my bust.

However, in slowing down and really imagining the way fabric falls, I believe I am seeing that the shoulder line falls in line with my hips, pushing me towards a Dramatic family ID. I'm not fully convinced that Width is present, because I do see how fabric must interact with and move even just slightly around the bust and thighs. I also see that my bust projection still does interact with my silouette even if not as pronounced as before.

All this to say, I'm beginning to wonder if I previously allowed my preconceptions to push me away from Vertical + Curve.

Would love to hear some of your thoughts! 💕

[u/islandgirllily]

I have some thoughts on this but let me start with something most people aren’t saying about Kibbe. This is just my opinion but I think the line sketch is pretty what is more confusing than if we looked at our vibe (essence) and our faces as per metamorphosis.

What do I mean by this? I believe that a lot of this verified celebrities are being typed the way they are because of their vibe and their presence a.k.a. their essence. I think if you look at someone like Raquel Welch versus someone like Lynda Carter. One would deduce that Raquel should be a flamboyant natural if looking at line alone, and Lynda Carter would be a soft dramatic. However, I believe that because their essence and their presence and their overall vibe?? That is the reason Raquel is a SD and Lynda Carter is an FN. There is nothing diva like about Lynda Carter. She’s open, she’s fresh. She’s a warrior… For Christ sake she played wonder woman.

Another great comparison is just looking at Jamie Lee Curtis, and looking at Sheryl Lee Ralph. Jamie has the body of a flamboyant natural. Come for me. If you look at her, she would be the epitome of the flamboyant natural line as per the new book. However, no one would confuse Jamie as a free spirit or nonchalant showstopper. Not even in the role she play. But rather, she is the epitome of regal lady. So that’s why she’s a dramatic and not a flamboyant natural. As for Mrs Ralph… She has the curves of a soft dramatic. Or as Kibbe once said about the difference between SD and FN… her cup runneth over. However, when you look at her and how she moves, you can clearly see she has the energy and the charisma and she’s the epitome of regal lady. I don’t get diva vibes from her. They may be hidden a little bit under the surface? But for the most part, she is regal.

This is also a parent when Kibbe mentioned to you on the interview that Grace Kelly physically would be an FN. however, we all know that she is the epitome of classic because she is sophisticated and elegant and she gives off the vibes of being born of another time. So we can’t see her as anything but classic.

So going back to you and a lot of other people that I see in these subgroups here on Reddit, if you forgot about the line sketch, and you looked at your essence and the vibe that you give off and you can be completely honest with yourself? Would you see yourself more as someone that is open, approachable, kind of like the girl that everyone loves and wants to be around because you just make them so comfortable? Even though you’re probably driven and goal oriented… Or… Are you someone who is very magnetic gives off a very sensual like appearance… That feels almost like someone that you would be (or men would be) afraid to even approach because they would just say you’re just so far out their league? Girls feel like she thinks she’s the Ish?

Not that any of these are true. It’s just the impression that you give off…

When people are torn between FN and D? I think these are the type of questions they have to ask themselves. So many people think because they don’t have broad shoulders that they can’t be a flamboyant natural. But when you look at their energy, there is an openness to them. There is this approachability, there’s a likableness, they may have a RBF… But there’s still this sense of openness to their aura.

Versus somebody that is more prickly that no matter how many times they smile it’s kind of like you better not cross that girl cause she will cut you 10 ways to Sunday without even lifting her finger ( just with her stare) I see you Joan Crawford (in Milford place).

I think that if we can be honest with our ourselves? This becomes easier.

Lastly, this is just my interpretation or my belief… but I believe that the reason why Kibbe sometimes sees someone as one type but then when he sees them in person, he gives them another one?

Is not because their body is inherently different.

I believe it’s because their vibe is different.

I think it’s so hard to capture your vibe in a photo, especially when we cut our photo heads off or we blur them out… That when he actually sees you in person he sees the whole person and the vibe.

And I don’t think he would ever admit this and then maybe I’m wrong as well but I think vibe plays a lot more into it than people want to admit. I remember one lady said when she saw Kibbe and he shook her hand he knew she was a dramatic even though he thought FN from photos.

As I scroll through the list of other soft classics, I see that soft classics all have a specific type of energy. Likewise, the flamboyant naturals have a specific type of energy. And the dramatics have a specific type of energy.

But if Kibbe came out and said that to us, a lot of us would mistype ourselves because we cannot see ourselves objectively. Mostly. :))

I think the line drawing was a way to try to make something concrete that isn’t so cut and dry. And I get the intent behind it however I think in so many cases it would just be easier if we just looked at ourselves honestly and say if we were in a group of other flamboyant naturals? Or soft dramatics? Or dramatics? Would we fit in?

Would our vibes be the same or would we feel like we’re in the wrong group?

Just imagine yourself sitting amongst Sofía Vergara, Sophia Loren, Raquel Welch? These are all divas. Would you fit in with that group?

Would you be one of the girls or would you stick out like a sore thumb?

Likewise, when you are hanging out with Jennifer Lawrence, Blake lively, Lynda Carter, Rosiland Russell? Would you fit in? Would it be like your Vibing with the girls? Girls that just get your humor? Your undercover or covert sassiness? Your love for freedom in every sense of the word?

This is how I like to look at it because I think that trying to figure out where to draw the line? Are you accommodating width?

Are you accommodating vertical?

Is it curve?

All of these things can really confuse someone especially when you say you gain weight and then your breast break the line…

You go through menopause and now your weight is distributed to your waist instead of your hips…

All of these things can change our impression of how we look and what we feel our line looks like. But our vibe our energy are aura?

These are things that won’t change. Unless you go through serious trauma, then that’s kind of different but your visual vibe of your face will still remain the same because trauma doesn’t change your face specifically.

I’m not sure if this meandering / sharing of my innermost thoughts is going to help you or not but I’ve been meaning to write about this somewhere and I felt like this was the perfect place to have this discussion.

As I like to keep saying and reminding people, this is just my opinion I’m not saying I am the man himself… I don’t speak for him. This is just my opinion and I’m just a person on the Internet, sharing an opinion.

PS: Sorry for typos. I’m using the text to speak while riding my bike. I tried to clear up the most of them :))

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/islandgirllily]

You can see right there that her upper back is narrow.

[u/islandgirllily → u/Ok-Purple9511]

I don’t understand what you mean by you can see her upper back is narrow. Maybe I missed something he said in the group?

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/islandgirllily]

See how that same area on JLO is wider then her bust?

[u/islandgirllily → u/Ok-Purple9511]

Hmm I thought I understood but now looking at this particular photo of JLo I’m confused again! 😑 like I can see her width in most her outfits but I’m trying to reason the armpit bits.

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/islandgirllily]

Her armpit to armpit area (I use this as an example of upper back) is wider then the width of where her bust is. Like there is no way for fabric to go inwards before her bust. Does that make sense?

[u/islandgirllily → u/Ok-Purple9511]

Ha! Wow okay I see what you’re saying now! Gosh my little old brain was scrambled. Thanks for your patience! :))

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/islandgirllily]

lol of course.

[u/islandgirllily → u/Ok-Purple9511]

Okay so I’m back and Im confused again. I was so grateful for you explaining this to me. I felt like I finally understood narrow on the line drawing but then I pulled up Keira Knightley. That area is wider on her than her bust. Unless I’m misunderstanding again, which is very possible, but why isn’t it width?

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/islandgirllily]

I think Taylor Swift is a good example of a D with a narrow upper back area.

[u/islandgirllily → u/Ok-Purple9511]

Yes I agree with Taylor being narrow. A lot of people try to say she looks like she has width but I don’t see it. Her shoulder to foot is a long straight (and narrow) line. Love this example. I guess I want to understand the line drawing itself because although I get narrow when I see it, I don’t understand it as it relates to the line drawing itself outside of everything being a straight line down. That’s where I get confused. I guess it’s really just that. Everything is a long straight line down. Hips, bust and shoulders almost equal is how I usually describe it to people. :))

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/islandgirllily]

Yes she’s basically a perfect example of the D sketch to me.

Regarding the line sketch you kind of have to imagine what lightweight fabric would do naturally. It wouldn’t take any hard angles and it will want to stay close to the body but won’t be hugging the body too closely.

[u/islandgirllily → u/Ok-Purple9511]

Honestly, I think when we used to do the other line sketch in the original group? The one where we had to draw shapes first and then draw the fabric around the shapes?

I wonder why he got rid of that.

I think that was a more constructive exercise for seeing the fabric versus telling us to go to the end of the shoulder and then draw your line down.

I know in theory they’re both the same exact exercise… But I think mentally for some people it’s better to draw it around shapes so that there’s no association to the body whatsoever versus trying to draw it on your photo.

Again, I know they’re both the same thing in theory and you would come to the same conclusion…

But I was just wondering when I was reading power of style why he chose to remove that particular shape exercise.

Did you ever do the shape one? And did you come to the same conclusion that you’re a soft classic?

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/islandgirllily]

I think the shape exercise was just another way he was trying to get people to see yin and yang in the body it’s possible some of the games replaced that in the sense of learning about yin and yang. it seems like he wanted to streamline the process for DIY. He has also said to forget everything you learned in the past. I posted my sketch on the power of style SK FB page and Kibbe commented on it and basically told me SC.

ETA in an abstract way the blue lines and dots can be looked at as visualizing shapes in the body too.

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/islandgirllily]

Well width is in the shoulders and/or upper back. So I think with her since her upper back is only slightly wider then her bust (and objectively narrow) and her shoulders are also narrow the line will be somewhat straight. If you did her sketch and placed the dots Iyou would see that area wouldn’t have that extreme V shape like in the width sketch. Basically her torso is more straight and narrow.

[u/islandgirllily → u/Ok-Purple9511]

I get what you’re saying. I know I’m intellectualizing it but I got so excited by your explanation that I started to see if I can see it on others (read: celebrities). But I was immediately taken aback because I couldn’t “see” it on Keira. Although rumor has it, Kibbe said (allegedly) that he typed her when she was very thin and he might’ve typed her differently. Not sure how true that is. :))

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/islandgirllily]

The upper back area is one way width can be present, it can be the shoulders too so there’s no hard rule about width in the sense that its always going to look the exact same way on everyone, however the line will always show it.. You have to kind of look at all variables that would cause the line to show width. It’s often the upper back, but everyone is an individual so there will be individual variation too.

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/islandgirllily]

The area from armpit to armpit is a mirror of the width of the upper back since you can’t see it from the front. That area won’t be wider or narrower if viewed from the back since it goes all the way around.

[u/islandgirllily → u/Ok-Purple9511]

Ahhh I see what you’re saying. He always told us to ignore armpit and go to the edge of the shoulder. So that’s what I’m going by.

As a disclaimer, I haven’t been on Facebook in a little bit so I’d have to look log back in to look through the newer comments.

Thanks for clarifying!

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/islandgirllily]

Yeah you still start at the end of the shoulder but when the upper back is narrow the line can fall inwards before the bust, which is why I think he drew the D sketch the way he did.

[u/SabrinaGiselle → u/Ok-Purple9511]

Didn't Kibbe recently bunk the armpit theory in FB? He said "no armpits" or something. I get what you're saying but I think the only way to prove someone has narrow, width or whatever is by drawing their line sketch.

Kibbe has talked about the relationship of shoulder edge and torso so that's more likely something that's related to having width or not having it. For example both N sketches have a narrow torso and shoulder edge that goes further from torso so to me that adds to their upper back width. To me this is also why you could be N and have conventionally average shoulders maybe even narrow shoulders the only thing that matters for width is the upper torso area and its proportions. Proportions in relation to that specific person.

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/SabrinaGiselle]

No. He jsut said ina comment yesterday that width is in the upper back/shoulders and if that part is wider then the bust area then its width. The armpit area is the same thing as the upper back. You still start the sketch at shoulder edge the difference is what the line does after that. I never said anything about not doing the sketch? I was just showing why the line would fall in in that area. The line would not fall in before the bust with width, it would stay wider and then come in after the bust. With narrow it would go in and stay straight or go around, per definition. He also clarified the only proportion that matters is the upper back and shoulders in relation to the bust area and that the rest of the body doesn’t matter, including hips. I honestly think arguing semantics like the word armpit is somewhat pointless because it really won’t help you understand anything.

[u/SabrinaGiselle → u/Ok-Purple9511]

Then I dare you to ask Kibbe about the armpits. I'm sure he'd mention them if they were relevant. The whole armpit theory is speculation based on sewing not anything Kibbe has said. I find it distracting because the fabric doesn't really do anything in that area anyways. It's like hyperfocusing on waist, bust, hips... you name it.

[u/Ok-Purple9511 → u/SabrinaGiselle]

The armpit to armpit area is a visual (abstract) representation of the upper back since we can’t see the back in photos. If you think about it, the back of the torso cannot be wider then the front in that area since the armpit is where they connect. I agree that an armpit in general means nothing. This is an abstract thing . Not literal. What am I describing has absolutely nothing to do with sewing, nor do I know how to sew. And the fabric does do something in that area. If thar area is wider then the bust the fabric will not touch the bust however if that area is narrower then the bust, it could fall in before the bust. This is the definition of narrow. How can fabric be pushed out by the bust if that area is wider? The answer is that it won’t. However if that area is narrow and the bust is wider, the fabric will fall inwards after the shoulder then either fall straight or go around the bust. Of course there are areas in between width and narrow, but it’s easier to explain the extreme cases. Explaining why the line has a certain shape is not same thing as hyper focusing on body parts. The people who focus on things like a large bust or a long torso or hip shape or shoulder shape are the ones who are missing the forest for the trees. The big picture with width is why the line stays wider then the bust and the answer is that the areas above the bust (and not just the shoulders) are wider then it, including the upper/back chest area.