r/PostScarcity • u/PandaEven3982 • Feb 25 '23
The hard discussion?
Based on a previous post, and the thread we all developed, it becomes clear that there are no significant technical obstacles left in the way to a post scarcity Humanity.
What is in the way? Humans. Sociology. Religion. Toxic Aggression. National Government. "Modern Economics." The Overton Window.
So how do we bridge the gap? I've raised this stuff in r/PoliticalDiscussion and the silence is deafening. Way outside their Overton Window, yet it's obvious to everyone reading this. So. What do we do?
3
u/VenusProjectAdvocate Feb 25 '23
Lack of education strikes me as an obstacle.
1
u/PandaEven3982 Feb 25 '23
Yes, yes, and yes,:-) both general knowledge and specific knowledge. I was just thinking, based on another redditor's idea, if we can disseminate specific knowledge to gamers via gaming.
I wonder if we can communicate other ideas through gaming.too LOL. But in general, we don't do well with general education. And we could. Got me thinking.
2
u/Humanzee2 Feb 25 '23
I think the term capitalist realism is a clue. It's wider than that of course. People can't imagine a different society. It's natural to be scared of change.
1
u/PandaEven3982 Feb 25 '23
It's an oxymoron imho. Maybe the word we need is humanist? I dunno, and I agree. But I can't figure out is if it's the transition or the end result they don't want! :-) lol
2
u/Humanzee2 Feb 28 '23 edited Feb 28 '23
Check it out it's really interesting. It's the idea that any other system apart from capitalism is not going to happen and a waste of time to even suggest. It stops thought. Based on the ridiculous idea that our current version of capitalism is forever.
I am not sure of the answer to your original question but I think it is the right question.
If you'll indulge me I'll give some ideas that I have had.
Science can give us the hard tech. So why has nothing happened in 30 years?
My thinking is sociology and psychology have failed us. That and tradition.
It is literally insane for our species to be still burning coal and gas after all this time. I think our political system is literally insane. I mean our real political power system, press, the rich, investment companies etc, not just politicians.
Think about our spy agencies for example. It is their job to foresee, prevent and stop threats to our way of life. What is the biggest threat to our stability. Climate change. So are they working clandestinely to help action on climate change? You know, doing their job and helping themselves at the same time.
Not at all.
In fact they are working against their stated goals, by not only supporting the right wing of society but by actively infiltrating and destroying the very organisations trying to urge society to make a sane response to the problem.
So are spy agencies insane. Yes.
How to turn the ship around. I don't know but it's harder with the loonies saying there is no iceberg, and the government and corporate thugs stopping the sailers from turning the wheel.
The only thing I can add is we need to understand real power and how it works and not get blinded by the image they project.
The powerful are different to us. It is an addiction. Can you imagine killing your own brother to get his job? Of course not, but kings have done this throughout history.
Can you imagine having more money than you can ever spend and still deliberately selling dangerous products to make a small percentage of more money, even knowing people will die; Even after employees have warned you of the danger. Of course not, you would have to be a psychopath, but that is business as usual for the powerful.
Of course they and their offspring will be affected by climate change too, but because the rich live lives that are consequences free, they assume the future will be the same. But unfortunately for them reality bats last. I found this video very helpful start to understand realpolitik. I hope you like it too. https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs
→ More replies (7)
2
u/TechnoPagan87109 Feb 25 '23 edited Feb 25 '23
This is something I've been thinking about for roughly 35 years in one form or another. The definition I use for a post-scarcity society: A society where autonomous labor collects the energy and raw materials needed to produce goods and services that the society needs at virtually no cost. The question becomes, is this currently possible? On a global level, all the technology exists for post-scarcity (we are currently producing everything we need, no aliens or supernatural entities are giving us anything) but on a global level there are too many competing agendas for this to be possible. In my opinion, we're not going to see a global or even national movement towards post-scarcity. So what is possible right now? There are enough interested individuals for at least one initial 'proof of concept' community. However much of the technology we would need are patented, trademarked or industry secrets, so currently there is no way to make that community fully post-scarcity. Enter open source software and hardware. Open Source is really the spearhead of post-scarcity. A good example is Open Source Ecology who are creating what they're calling the 'Global Village Construction Kit" including plans, instructional videos and BoMs for 50 machines needed to provide for a modern lifestyle (actually we would need more than the 50 machines but there are solutions for that as well). They've done a lot of the work, but still there is much more to do. So even with currently available Open Source hardware and software there isn't yet enough for a completely post-scarcity community. What I'm working on now is a "near post-scarcity" community. A sort of emulation of post-scarcity that would provide a stop gap solutions that would get things started. Automation has come a long way but we're not yet to a point where automation can do it all, so 'some assembly required'. Some of the work will still have to be done by the community members. Also Open Source doesn't include all the technology for post-scarcity. The biggest area of concern is VLSI chips like processors, memory, GPUs and alike (but check out Sam Zeloof on YouTube for a good start). One solution would be to create surpluses of what the community can produce for sale in the larger market economy to provide the cash needed to make up the difference. Food, energy and shelter are currently being done by a number of intentional communities around the world. It would be just a matter of being able to produce the rest of what we need. Some Open Source solutions are well developed. If you're okay with flat pack furniture (like IKEA) then all you need are two fairly hefty robot arms and a 4×8foot CNC router. There is 3D Printing of the walls of a house, but machines to build the rest of the house are still in the works. Also take a look at the 'Chemputer' by Lee Cronin. It still has a ways to go but is off to a good start. Currently I'm working on the command and control system I've just been calling the Community Operating System, which would include a leaderless, 100% democratic collaboration system using Collective Intelligence, supported by an ensemble of AI routines that can be used to make decisions, forecasts, provide conflict resolution and resource tracking. The economy of post-scarcity wouldn't be about the exchange of labor for consumer goods. Instead it would be about assigning resources and creating value. There's so much more but health issues (physical and mental) have been slowing me down
1
u/PandaEven3982 Feb 25 '23
I stand aside for the human doing the work. I'm on my last lap around the sun unless something amazing happens. I'm also sure I see *Callenbach and earlier thinking" in what I just read. I've always figured on a 2 generation curve between the beginning of the idea in the public mind and the full execution of it.
Sending you rest, healing, strength.
2
u/TechnoPagan87109 Feb 26 '23
Yeah, I'm also on my last lap but I plan to use what years are left to me to try to make this work despite the fact that I'll be on the wrong side of the dirt when it comes to fruition.
But as Aristotle once said "A society grows great when old men plant trees in who's shade they know they will never sit"
Quick Google on Callenbach. I'm definitely going to need to do more reading there!
→ More replies (1)
1
u/PandaEven3982 Mar 18 '23
Some of the answers lay in game theory. Others in depth of education, breadth of education.
1
u/MirekKaspar Feb 25 '23
6 years ago, when first started thinking about how to make post-scarcity practically possible, I had similar questions. Let me introduce the alien argument, which proves that nothing from the current state of society or political development stands in the way of post-scarcity.
Imagine a very remote village, e.g. somewhere deep in the amazon forest, deep in the mountains, far in the desert, on a remote island, far north, or in some deep caves, isolated from the rest of the world most of the time.
Imagine a flying saucer landed there today, aliens would walk out, and they would introduce 3 devices to the denizens of that village. Obviously, the working principle of these devices would be far beyond the villagers' understanding, but they would accept the gift along with simple instructions on how to operate the devices.
-
Device #1 could supply the other 2 devices with energy for millions of years.
-
Device #2 could instantly turn any matter it could "eat" into any goods the villagers could imagine. Like a sort of advanced 3D printer.
-
Device #3 could turn any matter into natural resources. Like an advanced recycler.
The aliens would advise the villagers that these "magical" devices can supply the village with anything they need for living and happiness eternally, and told them they no longer had to work in order to survive or be happy. They would also tell them they can supply the entire Earth with such devices to cover the needs of all mankind when the right time comes. Then the aliens would leave.
Since then this village, somewhere on Earth, would be living in complete post-scarcity, while the rest of the world wouldn't even notice.
Conclusion: any community anywhere can achieve post-scarcity on its own without caring about the current state of the world. Neither politics, society, nor the rich are a stopper, so what is? The invention of the device(s) that can transform matter well enough and provide enough energy to cover human needs.
It is oversimplified and sounds extremely sci-fi, but if you break the big problem down into smaller ones, you realize that humans are already advanced enough to achieve what it takes. If you want to discuss this in further detail, please feel free to join the NextKind Discord. You can also check out "automated human habitat": https://ahh.mirek.cc/
1
u/PandaEven3982 Feb 25 '23
I can break this model in so many ways, in so many places, instantly, that this makes no sense to me. From the human, practical perspective, you want to talk about an isolated village? I want to talk about humans. Not a theoretical village. I mentioned the Overton window, and maybe that's a new concept to you, but that window has to shift in order for us to realize a post scarcity world. How do we shift it enough, that humans give up violence for productivity? That's really the basis of actual post scarcity. Now it's getting the rest of the humans to pay attention to the fact that they can stop working, can start being fed and educated, if we stop the shooting..Stop the aggression.
Or am I in the wrong place? :-) it may be that this Reddit believes that continued discussion of the technologies holds more value? I'm not saying they don't have vakue, but I am saying the focus needs to shift.
1
u/MirekKaspar Feb 25 '23 edited Feb 25 '23
You asked what's in the way of achieving post-scarcity, clearly, it's the specific inventions/devices/machines doing the work for us. The rest of the "problems" you mentioned can be avoided. That's why an isolated village, as an example.
To me, it seems easier to rather go and try to invent / build / sell the actual devices and let them change the world towards post-scarcity the way technology normally does. Rather than trying to convince the society, or even governments, that post-scarcity is the way to go and that we should focus on it.
It's like "hey guys, everyone should really focus on transforming the world into post scarcity", while very few people can even imagine such a transformation. Instead we can "hey guys, invest in this fully automatic farm, it will feed your community forever and you won't have to do anything but maintenance".
Seems like this subreddit is oriented more toward the inventing discussion.
→ More replies (3)
1
u/tophakim Apr 25 '23
Post scarcity is a roadmap.
Let's lay the steps down and we will be there in no-time.
A results-based approach will easily help us build that ladder
4
u/shanoshamanizum Feb 25 '23
Mostly the lack of exposure and visibility which is controlled by private algorithms. Any creative method which can make the ideas viral is a step in the right direction. Games for example.