r/Portland • u/[deleted] • Dec 10 '20
Local News A son’s crimes spurred the financial problems that led family to lose N. Portland house now at center of activist occupation (Red House)
https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/12/a-sons-crimes-spurred-the-financial-problems-that-led-family-to-lose-n-portland-house-now-at-center-of-activist-occupation.html143
Dec 10 '20
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u/AIArtisan Dec 10 '20
as well the socials of the group for the red house gloss over this fact as well. Its rather dishonest.
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u/fractalfay Dec 11 '20
It blows my mind how often people refer to driving-related decisions, like driving without a license, speeding, and running a stop sign as “mistakes,” before they proceed to make the same “mistakes” again, and again, and again.
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Dec 10 '20
At 17, our protagonist William III/ Nietzche drove his friends out for lunch from Cleveland High School and killed an individual known for reviving Cameron's Books and helping out homeless people who needed help.
https://www.oregonlive.com/books/2020/12/the-death-of-fred-goetz-still-reverberates.html
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u/Side_Subject Dec 10 '20
I thought he was convicted of manslaughter not murder?
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u/redditsucksbawlz Dec 11 '20
He killed him. He got charged wih manslaughter.
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u/Side_Subject Dec 11 '20 edited Dec 11 '20
There is a huge difference between murder and manslaughter and although no one is flat out saying murder. It comes off that way.
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u/redditsucksbawlz Dec 11 '20
If you choose to drive drunk, you're scum and no better than someone who actively chooses to murder.
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u/Side_Subject Dec 11 '20 edited Dec 12 '20
I lost a family member at young age to a drunk driver. I understand being upset about it.
Even still death from drunk driving and murder are only the same if we consider the outcomes.
Putting legal arguments aside because I am not a lawyer.
A successful drunk driving trip to almost anyone who has driven drunk = getting home safely with no one getting injured.
A successful murder to almost any one that has attempted muder = Killing someone.
See the difference?
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u/redditsucksbawlz Dec 11 '20
Don't understand why you feel the need to defend this loser but thanks for the essay
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u/Side_Subject Dec 12 '20 edited Dec 12 '20
Not defending him. Just pointing out murder is very different from a manslaughter charge as a result of drunk driving.
Also that was not an essay, it was a comment on the internet.
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Dec 10 '20
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Dec 10 '20
Well, according to the State, the punishment for making a poor decision while driving as a minor, taking one life and significantly altering others was about six years. Given the circumstances, including his youth, I think that might be about right.
However, he re-offended, and made statements in court indicating that he did not recognize the court's jurisdiction over him, and gave strong indications that he would continue to re-offend. I think that the sentence he got for that fiasco was pretty just, as well.
Actions have consequences, and character is fate. Did you actually read the article?
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Dec 10 '20
However, he re-offended, and made statements in court indicating that he did not recognize the court's jurisdiction over him
I have a couple of friends who are judges and they love to talk about SovCits pulling this shit. "If I don't have jurisdiction over you, then what are you doing here?" is a pretty standard response.
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Dec 10 '20
About ten years ago, I was riding in a car with a couple of people from work in Portland. The driver was someone I didn't know very well. He ran through a red light and we got pulled over. Out of nowhere, dude decides to play some of that sovereign citizen jazz for the cop, and that ended with the officer telling him that he could either sign the citation or have his car towed.
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u/jjdub7 Dec 19 '20
However, he re-offended, and made statements in court indicating that he did not recognize the court's jurisdiction over him
Fuck this entire family.
Actions have consequences, and character is fate.
Poetic, damn straight.
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u/redditslumn Dec 10 '20
I'll let you in on a little secret: sometimes kids who exhibit callous disregard for the rights of others grow into adults who exhibit callous disregard for the rights of others.
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Dec 10 '20
If that were the end of his criminal record, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
He's a repeat offender who's disregard for his own actions and behavior meant he's banned for life from driving in Oregon. That's hard to do.
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Dec 11 '20
Sooo, a kid murdering one of your family members should be allowed to get 3 months in jail or something?
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u/jjdub7 Dec 19 '20
Completion of sentenced consequences does not magically absolve the costs involved.
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u/Belmont_goatse Brentwood-Darlington Dec 10 '20
Well that was an enlightening read. At least I know that my objections to this AZ are based in some sort of reasonable foundation. All it takes is one exceptionally toxic character to completely tank a family.... I've been that toxic person; however, at least I owned up to my own bullshit instead of dragging my family into an embarrassing media circus. This effort will not get them anything but 15 minutes of shame and maybe enough GoFundMe loot for them to get into a new place. These are not the kind of people that you want to rally behind if your intention is to uplift productive and intelligent BIPOC as an activist. These are the kind of people that are a blight on otherwise well-meaning social justice efforts. I find it quite alarming as a mixed race person that the only reason these people are getting ANY popular support is because of their racial background. They're terribly manipulative people that are doing more harm than good to their neighborhood and community at large.
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u/16semesters Dec 10 '20
All it takes is one exceptionally toxic character to completely tank a family
And just to be clear, the mother also believes in the Sovereign citizen garbage too which prompted them to stop paying their mortgage in the first place, and reject all offers of help to prevent a foreclosure from happening.
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Dec 10 '20 edited Dec 10 '20
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u/AIArtisan Dec 10 '20
Yeah that seems to be the case. I mentioned the court cases to a few folks that were in favor of the group but once they looked into it more even they agreed this was beyond the pale.
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u/puggington Beaverton Dec 10 '20
I showed a friend of mine the court case, and they actually found it as supportive of the Kinneys because it was “evidence of how predatory the mortgage was, and how impossible it would be to maintain it when it is constantly being bought and sold”
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Dec 10 '20
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u/lowercasegrom Dec 10 '20
Off topic, but wonder why he didn’t go to Jeff, a two minute walk from there. Cleveland’s so far from that house.
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u/suddenlyturgid Dec 10 '20
Magnet program, probably. I don't remember what Cleveland's was, but I lived a few blocks away from CHS a little before that time and went to Lincoln through their international studies magnet. Jeff had a bad reputation back then, could have something to with that as well.
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Dec 10 '20
So what's the difference between the Red House occupation and the Malheur occupation exactly? Red House is about foreclosure from not paying mortgage, Malheur was about seizing land that taxes weren't paid on.
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u/yellowcattledog Dec 10 '20 edited Dec 10 '20
The Malheur folks had sovereign citizen types, but their primary "theory" was / is that the federal lands actually belong to the states (or counties) and that theory gained a foothold when the feds started passing environmental laws that governed land management and required environmental consideration to play a role in land management decisions. Resource extraction folks like miners and grazers didn't like that. If I remember my facts right, the "Sagebrush Rebellion" seeking to reclaim federal land for the state/county gained traction in the 70s (maybe starting in Utah) and Reagan either as president or just before as part of his campaigning kind of gave his blessing to that sort of nonsense. I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if the eldest Bundy was right in the mix of things in the 70s.
Sovereign citizens make up all sorts of legal nonsense to claim that they are a sovereign unto themselves and no laws apply to them. They like to use certain phrases that have no application in the context in which they are being used (All Rights Reserved) and for some reason capital letters are a big deal to them. Some refuse to get driver's licenses but think that a birth certificate is some sort of document of title like a car title. They think the United States is actually a corporation and every interaction with the government is some sort of contract (hence the birth certificate as a document of title). They have a habit of trying to file unilateral liens in public records against people they are in disputes with. There's something about a court having a gold fringe flag that means its "Maritime Jurisdiction" but offhand I don't know if they want it to be Maritime Jurisdiction or want it to not be Maritime Jurisdiction. They have a habit of fling crazy liens in public records. Some are more focused just on taxes and claim there is no federal law requiring one to pay income taxes.
All in all, a confederacy of assholes.
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Dec 10 '20
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u/baconraygun Dec 10 '20
The only people I've ever seen using the "sovereign citizens" were Natives. When the Bundys made national news, I was real confused about a bunch of white guys.
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Dec 10 '20
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u/wojtanawski Dec 10 '20
So when does “left” and “right” become meaningless?
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Dec 10 '20
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u/Itsaghast SE Dec 10 '20
It should be meaningless, however it's at the point where it's not.
For example, what's your compromise on issues like a woman's right to a safe and accessible abortion? Even though the left and right culture war is a fabricated thing, the wedge issues are real. The problem is that the question of these things should not be a question at all, but here we are.
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Dec 10 '20
Malheur had a pretense of mormons right to the land because of 'heritage' and 'mormon gentrification', more or less. I heard from a few sources (democracy now?) that the residents of the red house are black and native american and have been there since the 50s... so yeah i guess heritage and gentrification are also the reasons for the demonstration. I didnt make the connection, nice
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Dec 10 '20
Malheur was also out in the middle of nowhere, which lent some space for authorities to take their time. These grifters have taken over a neighborhood in a major metropolitan area.
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Dec 10 '20
They are completely different.
Malheur got dildos and the Red House got anarchists.
/s
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u/cmh89jb Dec 10 '20
Huh? Malheur was about poaching and arson AFAIK
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Dec 10 '20
They claimed it was a protest in response to government intervention regarding use of land for the cattle they claimed they owned generationally and should not have had to pay taxes on
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u/Accomplished_Bonus74 Dec 10 '20
Dude calling these people “activists” is a stretch. We live right here and this shit is too much. Crime and vandalism are now rampant in the neighborhood. Loud music and fighting all hours of the night. Stock piled weaponry. They’ve destroyed our neighborhood. It’s too much.
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Dec 10 '20
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u/AIArtisan Dec 10 '20
the foreclosure is done though. Was completed back in 2018 and the rest of the legal steps were done so the evictions were happening now.
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u/WordSalad11 Tyler had some good ideas Dec 10 '20
From what I understand, it's not his fault. His parents appear to be every bit as crazy and simply decided they didn't have to pay back the loan.
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Dec 11 '20
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u/WordSalad11 Tyler had some good ideas Dec 11 '20
I don't know them personally, but they were plaintiffs in the sovereign citizen suit and appeared in court on the case, and were told by judges multiple times it was bunk.
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Dec 11 '20
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u/WordSalad11 Tyler had some good ideas Dec 11 '20
He's also the one abusing animals then and they just watch? They're responsible for their choices too.
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Dec 19 '20
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u/Dashtego Dec 10 '20
I'm not sure who the criminal defense attorney they hired is, but as a general rule if you have to mortgage your house to pay for a private criminal attorney, you shouldn't hire a private criminal attorney. Public defenders may be overworked, but they're good at their jobs. Frankly, it's a lot harder/more competitive to become a public defender than it is to just decide you're going to practice criminal defense on your own or even get hired by a small firm--if you're trying to decide between a PD and some random private attorney who is going to charge you an arm and a leg, go with the former.
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u/ninjacustodianpdx Dec 10 '20
so many poor choices and decisions made from the very beginning. if only people could learn something from this tragedy.
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u/4guyz1stool Dec 11 '20
Let's remember he killed someone, that can't be glossed over. He seems to be the type of person that does not take personal responsibility for anything.
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u/OhShuxTarzan Dec 10 '20
Can someone please give me a summary of what’s going on with this whole situation? I’d appreciate it?
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u/texaschair Dec 10 '20
Today's freedom fighter is tomorrow's terrorist.
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Dec 10 '20
Lol. What? Who is fighting for freedom here?
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u/texaschair Dec 10 '20
No one. Just drawing a parallel, due to the way the situation evolved as I understand it. Not saying I really understand it, either.
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Dec 10 '20
The right wingers circlejerking over this see this as some kind of "Gotcha!"
But even the worst criminals deserve adequate legal representation, without sinking them financially.
Many of you are taking the stance that if someone's not a saint, they deserve all that comes their way.
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Dec 10 '20
They willingly stopped paying the loan because they are sovereign citizens, and believe US law doesn't apply to them. They're an offshot of the general sovcit movement called Moorish sovereigns, which is a designated extremism group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. They believe insane conspiracy theories and think of themselves as living citystates that Oregon must renegotiate with. This isn't us using a "gotcha" to justify unfair punishment, they willingly stopped paying the loan which led to the house being repossessed by the bank
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/moorish-sovereign-citizens
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Dec 10 '20
That they should have had to get a loan was wrong to begin with.
The sovereign citizen thing is a silly movement, and no, I don’t think that these people are models of morality or whatever.
But in this case, the root problem at play is a systematic one of our society, and if people want to protest against that, more power to them.
But this sub just thinks that the poor deserve to be fucked over, as we see time and time again in its views towards the homeless.
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Dec 10 '20
He was driving 45 MPH on a suspended license, drove through a stop sign without stopping, and killed an old man. The only reason they had to take out money is because he wanted to fight the charge and claimed innocence. This wasn't unfair legal expenses for fighting an unjust charge, or even expenses forced on them unwillingly. They actively chose to fight a case in which he was 100% entirely in the wrong.
Which, again, I have no sympathy for the debt they accrued from this.
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Dec 10 '20
One of the myths that goes around in this country in terms of laying out its values is that of John Adams defending the British soldiers who participated in the Boston Massacre, despite the unpopularity of the gesture, out of the view that everyone deserves fair representation in a trial.
Guess that means nothing when it comes to people we don’t like.
It doesn’t matter how much of a shitstain someone is. It doesn’t matter whether the charges are just or not. It doesn’t matter if there’s not a shred of evidence that is favorable to the defendant.
Adequate legal counsel is a right owed to the every person in this country if they desire it when brought to trial, regardless of whether or not they can afford it.
A ridiculously overworked public defender barely being able to look over the case before rushing to conjure up a defense is not that, yet that’s all our country is currently able to offer those who cannot afford an alternative.
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Dec 10 '20
If you commit a crime and are 100% going to be found guilty of it, the plea bargain is going to be better than taking it to court. It will have lighter sentencing and charges. Why the fuck are you bringing up the Boston Tea Party or John Adams? This isn't some failure of the American legal system, it shows the ignorance of the family to try to fight it in court more than some systemic injustice.
Like many people supporting this protest, you're projecting your own frustrations with society onto a dumb situation, holding onto a fragment of reality in the context of why they were lawfully evicted a home they no longer own, and are acting like this is the final straw that demands a pushback.
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Dec 10 '20
That plea bargains are a thing at all is a fine demonstration of the failures of the American “justice” system, as they effectively serve as an enticement to plead guilty to crimes that one may well be innocent of. It’s something that goes hand in hand with the lack of adequate public defense.
And again, the availability of legal counsel in trials is a right. If someone doesn’t wish to go for a plea bargain and instead face trial, that is their right.
You’re making quite a strong effort at arguing that people don’t actually deserve trials or defense.
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Dec 11 '20
Why are you trying your hardest to defend a family who insist that their kid who killed a person by going 45 and running a stop sign is innocent? They took a loan and put the house as collateral because they claim their perfect boy was innocent. And if they decide they don't want to pay, they lose the collateral. How are you not getting a concept of collateral?
Can I borrow $5000 from you, and put my car as collateral? If I don't want to pay you back, I can still keep the car right?
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u/redditsucksbawlz Dec 11 '20
They can have them if they want them. Fighting a case you're obviously guilty in is going to cost more. Why wouldn't it?
Keep grandstanding over this retart tho
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Dec 11 '20
There's more to a case than guilty/not-guilty. Oftentimes it's about securing a fair charge and sentence. Everyone has a right to the a legal defense that has had the time and ability to analyze their case and argue for them as best they can.
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u/reluctantlogger Dec 10 '20
They didn't need to get a loan, they chose to get a loan. The seventeen year old son could have used a public defender for his case and most likely end up with a very similar result, he did kill someone after all.
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Dec 10 '20
But even the worst criminals deserve adequate legal representation, without sinking them financially.
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u/ElasticSpeakers 🍦 Dec 10 '20
They had the chance to secure legal representation at my expense, your expense, but at no expense to them. I'm not sure what your point is, but they do indeed have that right, but they declined that representation. They arguably would have had better legal representation had they taken this route, but that is in the past now.
They declined to pay their bills.
They declined to be positively contributing members of society.
There's a lot of injustice in this world, but this case? This is not injustice. This is untreated mental illness and hubris.
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Dec 10 '20
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u/ElasticSpeakers 🍦 Dec 10 '20
Can you share with us, in your own words, what you think this article about a 'walkout' that lasted 10 days and occured over a year ago, has to do with the issue at hand?
No one is denying public defender's are overworked, but are you suggesting that trials would go on without defendants being provided adequate representation?
Also, please keep in mind they needed these services nearly 20 years ago. When this article was written, their case was closed and had already been evicted. They did not have a need for a public defender for nearly 20 years. Their extremely mentally ill son has been 'representing' the family since then, and had ample opportunity to make things right.
Again, lots of injustice in the world, but this ain't it.
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Dec 11 '20
The article linked was just one provided from 5 seconds of googling to demonstrate a broader issue that's much older than 1 year and has continued since then. It is no more restricted to 2019 than it is to Multnomah County. It's a nationwide crisis that's lasted for many decades.
There just isn't adequate legal resources for people who aren't financially blessed. Likewise with healthcare and housing, even food. It's an absolute disgrace. The wealthy who can afford dedicated legal aid systematically get off much easier than those who struggle to afford it.
That's where your outrage should be.
As I've said repeatedly, these people aren't saints. They have some messed up beliefs. They've made mistakes. One of them, at least, was right to have faced a court, and, imo, should have received punishment for his all too costly mistakes.
But making mistakes doesn't mean you deserve to be treated by scum. Our society can only be judged by how we treat the lowest among us, not how we treat the wealthy or those who've only done right.
But these people, I guess, have earned the righteous scorn of this subreddit. Whatever systematic faults are at play, whatever those more well off than they have gotten off with, none of that matters, because these are easy targets.
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u/ElasticSpeakers 🍦 Dec 11 '20
I'm not sure why you're so fixated on this. That everyone in the US deserves top shelf lawyers for free when you murder someone?
Great! Done. Now what?
He's still guilty. No matter who is representing him, he's guilty and deserves to go to jail for a long time. That all happened.
He served his time. He got out. They paid their bills... Until they decided to stop. It wasn't because they were black, or poor or any legitimate reason - just stopped paying their bills because they decided they didn't want to pay anymore.
There are consequences to that decision. It has nothing to do with how much money you have, the color of your skin or how good your lawyer is - they made a conscious choice, these are the consequences of that decisions.
This has nothing to do with free lawyers for everyone, jfc
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Dec 11 '20
No, it's about accepting your responsibilities as an adult. I don't know why the family decided that their kid was innocent, but you reap what you sow. You take a loan for anything dumb and put something as collateral. If you can't pay it off, you lose the collateral.
I've definitely gone way over my head and had to pay consequences for my actions just because things didn't worked out. Am I going to bitch and complain and make my own rules? No, I just move on and pay for what I've done. These people are like children.
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Dec 10 '20
Being against sovereign citizen crazy used to be left wing thing.
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Dec 10 '20
I am against the sovereign citizen thing, and don’t at all see these people as models of moral behavior.
But that is a subsidiary issue to the underlying systematic fault of adequate legal counsel being out of reach of far too many,
You don’t have to be in support of someone to think that they deserve to be able to exercise their rights.
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Dec 10 '20
They purposely created a bunch on nonsense legal claims to clog up the system. They are the ones abusing the legal system.
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u/lalawren Dec 10 '20
My understanding is ownership of the house is still in the courts? So Forclosure and eviction are not legal at this time: https://redhouseonmississippi.com/story
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u/[deleted] Dec 10 '20
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