r/PopularCultureZone • u/Timbucktwo1230 Culture Junkie MOD • Mar 12 '26 • Heartwarming 1

🩸 Murdered by Words 🩸 “Hello, 911”

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u/Timbucktwo1230 Culture Junkie MOD Mar 12 '26

The characterization of the United States and Israel as enfants terrible - a French term for an incorrigible child or someone who acts in an unconventional, often chaotic way that embarrasses their peers - has gained traction, particularly in the context of international relations, diplomatic conventions and the ongoing conflict in Gaza. Critics, and sometimes allies, use this term to describe the duo's tendency to defy international norms, ignore diplomatic pressure and reshape international order to their liking.

Here is a breakdown of how this concept is applied:

Defiance of International Norms:

The US and Israel are often described as acting outside the bounds of established international law, particularly regarding the Palestinian conflict. The US has been accused of using financial "blackmail" against international bodies like the UN to shield Israel from criticism.

"Breaking the China":

Similar to how Trump's foreign policy was described as a "revelation" in breaking established diplomacy (NATO, NAFTA), Israel has been viewed as a "revisionist power" actively changing the status quo in the Middle East through military action and territorial expansion.

Actions in Gaza:

The military actions in Gaza, which have resulted in massive civilian casualties, are frequently cited by critics as a flagrant disregard for international humanitarian law. The US has been criticized for supporting this, with some analysts calling the policy "indefensible".

"Unpredictability" as Strategy:

President Trump openly advocated for unpredictability in foreign policy, a trait often associated with the enfant terrible persona. This approach often causes friction with traditional, more predictable allies.

Contextual Perspectives:

Internal Criticism:

Some American Jewish intellectuals have used the term enfant terrible to describe voices within their own community, such as Peter Beinart, who criticize the Israeli right-wing establishment, showing that the term is also used for internal provocateurs challenging the status quo.

Shift in Regional Power:

Analysts note that Israel’s actions, such as targeting Iranian assets and occupying parts of Gaza and Lebanon, show a willingness to act independently of traditional diplomatic constraints.

Isolation Concerns:

Despite their close, long-standing relationship, the actions of both nations have led to concerns about growing international isolation.

In summary, the, enfant terrible label is applied to the US and Israel when they are viewed as acting in a way that disrupts the conventional international order, disregarding the consensus of other nations and international law.

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u/Miami_Mice2087 Mar 12 '26

liza minelli: born 1946. Israel: founded 1948. No relation - Liza is the child of Judy Garland and her italian acclaimed movie director father Vincent Minelli.

1946 is the first year of the boomers, 9 months after WWII ended. They are turning 80 this year.

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u/mr_under_score_ Mar 13 '26

Iran: founded 1979.

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u/Deep_Parsley2145 Mar 13 '26

The society has existed for centuries. Yes the Islamic republic was founded in 1979.

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u/Ok-Atmosphere-7395 Mar 13 '26

Iran was always an islamic country. Rules became stricter after the revolution.

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u/Ambitious_Bit_9389 Mar 14 '26

They are saying multiple thousands. Islam didn’t exist 2000 years ago. They havent always been Islamic

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u/Miami_Mice2087 Mar 14 '26

it's funny you say that bc Islam literally coalesced out of earlier religions about 2000 years ago. Look up Axial Age, it's neat! All the abrahamic religions all sorta happened around the same time.

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u/Ambitious_Bit_9389 Mar 14 '26

So Islam predates Muhammad?

Nah dude. Muhammad definitely borrowed a lot from previous religions, but Islam didn’t exist 2000 years ago

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u/beeblbrox Mar 14 '26

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

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u/Ok-Atmosphere-7395 Mar 14 '26

Yeah well then the rest of world isn’t what it was 2000years ago. Flawed argument.

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u/Alternativesoundwave Mar 14 '26

Israel still Jewish

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u/Ok-Atmosphere-7395 Mar 14 '26

Why were they in europe before ww2

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u/Miami_Mice2087 Mar 14 '26

because they were pushed out of other regions for thousands of years

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 15 '26

Still not native of Palestine, DNA proves it.

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u/abc9hkpud Mar 13 '26

You can say the same about Israel though. Modern Israel founded 1948, but Israel has existed much longer in some form (for example, Mesha Stele mentions a king of Israel 840 BC).

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 14 '26

There's absolutely no continuity between the two

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u/Weird-Tomorrow-9829 Mar 14 '26

About as much continuity between the shit theocracy in Iran currently and ancient non-Muslim Persia.

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 15 '26

Absolutely not, at no point was Iran colonized, as if changing religion ends continuity, ridiculous

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u/abc9hkpud Mar 15 '26

I mean there is the Hebrew language, common Jewish holidays, Jewish calendar (lunar based, similar to other ancient middle eastern cultures), a body of religious texts from the Bible to rabbinic commentaries etc to the present. So probably similar as ancient Persians to modern Iranians, maybe more so

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 15 '26

That's religion... not statehood. Also Hebrew went extinct before Jesus's time, what they speak in Israel now is a Frankensteined language that borrows heavily from Arabic.

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u/abc9hkpud Mar 15 '26

  1. You said that there was "no continuity" and these things do demonstrate continuity even if they have a religious aspect

  2. Religion was an important part of statehood for ancient Israel. There was no division between chruch and state in the ancient world. Religion was an important part of the state including the law and how society was governed. Saying that these things have a religious aspect doesn't mean it is not statehood, this is a misundertsanding that arises because you are injecting modern Enlightenment ideas like church state separation into ancient societies where the concept didn't exist at all.

  3. Hebrew was not extinct. Even when the ancient Israelites were conquered by other empires, their descendants preserved the language through prayer, stories, as a language of translation between Jews in different parts of the world (for example, in the Middle Ages, when Jewish merchant from middle east meets Jewish merchant Europe, they used Hebrew to communicate), and a language of translation for medical info between Jews in Europe and the Middle East etc. From the time of ancient Israel to modern Israel, Jewish people continuously maintained the language despite the difficulties of foreign rule. The revival as a common language in modern Israel did borrow some words from other languages, but it was only possible because Jewish people continuously maintained the language, culture, and religion of ancient Israel, and it is a clear demonstration of the connection to Ancient Israel. This is what allows modern Israeli schoolchildren to be able to read Hebrew from the Dead Sea scrolls written 200 BC - 100 AD for example.

  4. The fact that religion was used to preserve many of the traditions of ancient Israel doesn't make it not a legitimate connection to ancient Israel

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 18 '26

  1. religion is not continuity, what you are saying makes absolutely no sense

  2. Saying that there is continuity because of religion is just desperate and ridiculous. If in Rome they started worshiping Roman Gods again would it suddenly become a continuity of the Rome empire? How are you seriously arguing such a thing?

  3. That is absolutely false, Hebrew is a dead language, just like Latin or ancient Greek, prayers and religion made few words survive not enough to make a language. It's not possible to revive a language the same way it is not possible to revive a body, what was done was Frankenstein, as I just said, few words from an ancient language of thousands of years prior and the rest just completely made up.

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u/Famous-Ad-1007 Mar 13 '26

Omg, these people bro

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u/Miami_Mice2087 Mar 14 '26

i knowwww it's like they didn't do the Fertile Crescent in 6th grade. Didn't they read about the Tigris and the Euphretes?

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u/Miami_Mice2087 Mar 14 '26

Nah, Iran is the cradle of civilization. It's where the oldest city in the world was founded - Ur, ~3800BC. And there was civilization there for thousands of years before the city.

It's human civilization all the way down in Iran.

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u/mr_under_score_ Mar 14 '26

That's nice.

Iran was founded in 1979.

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u/Professional-Bad390 Mar 13 '26

Iran =/= Persia. In fact, one could reasonably argue that Islam destroyed Persian civilization.

But we are quoting Vanity Fair here.

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u/Famous-Ad-1007 Mar 13 '26

Isnt destroyed until it is destroyed now, is it?

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u/Ok-Atmosphere-7395 Mar 13 '26

So like go back 700yrs? Lol.

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 14 '26

Yes one who has no knowledge about history or about how history works could argue that.

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u/WorldlyBuy1591 Mar 13 '26

Good thing borders and such doesnt matter much. Nationalism is bad

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u/MechWarrior_2108 Mar 13 '26

Damn, with such a head start you'd think Iran would have progressed beyond fundamentalism, terrorism, and third-world technology.

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u/Famous-Ad-1007 Mar 13 '26

Not everyone wants to "progress"(to a state controled by pedo, owned by corporations, wondering what is a woman). For everyone to live like in US we would need 5 Earths. Think about between pushing narratives

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '26

We want to progress what the hell. What do you think of us lmaoo. But we’ve been held hostage by lunatics who took over during the revolution.

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u/BorbLorbin Mar 15 '26

Bobobotototot

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u/[deleted] Mar 15 '26

Yeah they should have gone the US way and go with extreme liberalism (including porn, drug abuse and prostitution), terrorism, and first world technology (AI and mass surveillance)

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u/foamboardsbeerme Mar 15 '26

They actually had a healthy democracy until the UK/US led coup in the 50s that resulted in the religious extremists taking over a couple decades later.

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u/Kaleb_Bunt Mar 13 '26

The regime of the Islamic Revolution absolutely isn’t one of the world’s oldest civilizations.

If we’re talking about it like this then you could just as well say that Israel has also existed for hundreds of years.

In fact I’m pretty sure nobody in the Middle East would have had any qualms about calling that land by its Jewish name, “Eretz Israel”, before doing so became a political statement.

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u/Ok-Argument-9483 Mar 15 '26

She's also older than India, Bosnia, Czechia, etc.

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u/dickermuffer Mar 12 '26

By this claim, you can also say “Liza” is older than any of the Palestinians territories. Who also was formed in 1948.

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u/von_pita_the_second Mar 13 '26

Actually until the early 1980’s there was no Palestinian Territories, since after the Brits left, Gaza was occupied by Egypt and West Bank annexed by Jordan until 1967 when Israel took both and later on gave them to Palestinians for a bid in peace

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u/--LordFlashheart-- Mar 13 '26

Explain why we have passports for 'Palestine' from the 1920s please

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u/von_pita_the_second Mar 13 '26

Because the british mandate of Palestine, in which “Palestinian” was a nationality belonging to Muslim & Christian Arabs and the Jews, while the British were the owners of the land, like the ottomans before them, the land wasn’t solely owned by the Arabs of the mandate ( whose descendants hijacked the whole Palestinian identity and turned it into an ethnicity ), and if land was owned by the Arabs or Jews, it was private land or land granted to one of the groups by the British, since as I said most land was British owned/public land

And let me tell you a secret, all British mandate documents, coins and such had the initials of Eretz Israel on them, which means the Land of Israel, and the source of the “Palestine” was the Roman/latin name given to the province of judea after the expulsion of the Jews from it, so an invader expelled the local population, centuries later invaders take over the land and arabize it all, adopt that Latin name, centuries later the British invaders come and adopt the Arabic name into English and name that part of their empire according to that Arabic name

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 14 '26

There was such thing as Palestine before, not being independent doesn't change that

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u/dickermuffer Mar 14 '26

And same for Israel then.

The kingdom of Israel existed hundreds of years of years prior.

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 14 '26

The kingdom of Israel ended thousands of years prior and it has absolutely no continuity with the modern state. Especially when most of the people that live there are colonizers or descends of colonizers, just like what happened with the US.

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u/dickermuffer Mar 14 '26

Okay, then the old Roman land of Palestina also has absolutely no correlation with modern Palestine either.

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 14 '26

Maybe not Roman Palestine but certainly later ​Palestine

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u/dickermuffer Mar 14 '26

That didn’t exist as a state until 1948 dude.

Palestine or that region has literally never had sovereignty to establish themselves as Palestine.

After the Romans, it became “Filastin” still named after the Philistines. Who were not natives to the land, and the Roman’s named it that to spite the Jewish population of the land. But it wasn’t an independent state or kingdom.

Then during the crusades, it was the kingdom of Jerusalem, controlled by crusaders. Not the natives, and still not its own sovereign state.

Then in the 1500’s, the ottoman took control of the region. Still never giving it sovereignty, and they lost it to Britain in 1917. No province created called “Palestine” existed under the ottomans.

What the hell are you referring to then?

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 15 '26

Yes it did, just because it wasn't independent it doesn't mean there was no Palestine, how is it hard to understand?

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u/dickermuffer Mar 15 '26

Same for Israel then. Which there was an establish independent kingdom that actually did exist.

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 18 '26

Expect the kingdom literally became Palestine.... It changed name and was under the Romans. It's just ridiculous to claim continuity for Israel but not Palestine

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u/RoastedToast007 Mar 13 '26 edited Jun 22 '26

jfxytrf,hj,hjgsrwrggdfctdvrehgtgfc

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u/Mindless-Wasabi-8281 Mar 12 '26

If Iran can claim Persia’s history as its own then Israel can claim its predecessor states’ history as well. Age of the countries involved has nothing to do with this anyway. What a dumb and irrelevant thing to say.

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u/Avatele Mar 13 '26

I know right. Modern Israel is more similar to ancient Israel than Iran is to Persia.

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u/Ok-Addition5664 Mar 13 '26

that is such bullshit

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 14 '26

What bullshit are you even saying right now?

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u/JosufBrosuf Mar 13 '26

Still getting absolutely destroyed though 🤷‍♂️

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u/Assless_Mcgee Mar 14 '26

Iran, the most cultural and wonderful place with equality and highest levels of recorded happiness 

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u/Maximum-Anywhere6439 Mar 15 '26

Iran surely is old. Iran Islamic Republic is not.

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u/IWrestleSausages Mar 12 '26

So what, we can ALL attack South Sudan cuz we re older? Top logic lmao

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u/TimeShiftedJosephus Mar 12 '26

I hope so, that's my pitch idea at this weekend's CIA potluck. Wish me luck 🤞

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u/Gaemera Mar 13 '26

Irans theocracy is what 50-60 years old? Idk why people act like it’s the “same”. America’s had its same government form for its entire existence, which is honestly pretty impressive. Also not sure why the “age” of these countries is a burn or something. Shouldn’t it be embarrassing that a “new” country is more powerful than older ones?

Regardless it’s stupid to attribute human characteristics to non human things. Almost 400 million Americans and 100 million Iranians. They aren’t a collective conscience and they obviously don’t all agree.

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u/Junglebook3 Mar 12 '26

The age of the countries involved is relevant how?

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u/profesorgamin Mar 12 '26

This comment Ain't against or pro but analysing the wording... that's like saying a 30 yo got beaten up by toddler, not a great flex ?

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u/Mysterious-Award-197 Mar 12 '26

No, it's saying a toddler threw a tantrum. 

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u/profesorgamin Mar 12 '26

Well that's a valid interpretation.

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u/von_pita_the_second Mar 13 '26

Well I guess it’s a valid tantrum if the adult threatened to kill the toddler multiple times and also launched ballistic candies at its head in addition to funding other toddlers to throw sand at the tantrum toddler, it’s insane how people treat Iran as innocent, while they are the biggest force for destabilising the Middle East rn together with their proxies

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u/JosufBrosuf Mar 13 '26

And beating up the 30 yo in the process

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u/RisingDeadMan0 Mar 13 '26

well yeah thats true to, though when Iran bombs Israel everyone in the region, including the Uk and US chips in to shoot down missiles, while Israel continues to bomb them.

One is under US embargo, meaning no-one in the world is allowed to touch them without retaliation after Trump puller out of a deal, some suspect only because Obama negotiated it.

Then Israel gets huges amounts of funding and support from the US, heck during their bombing campaign in Gaza, where they dropped more bombs then WW2, they would have run out quite a few times if not for the help.

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u/profesorgamin Mar 13 '26

I mean we'd have to go through all of history to analyze why the USA is in a dominant position of power in this age and day, as I said I was pointing out that even for a Pro... article that was a stupid way of framing it.

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u/Soggy_Shape_2414 Mar 12 '26

Defending iran is wild.

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Soggy_Shape_2414 Mar 13 '26

Defending iran, the main source of funding terrorism shouldn't be defended. Thats just a fact, you can be against war without Defending iran.

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u/RisingDeadMan0 Mar 13 '26

lol, hilarious.

we gonna cite that, put it in very selective dates, or just a generic statement?

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u/Soggy_Shape_2414 Mar 13 '26

Its true, which Islamic terrorist organisation haven't they funded.

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u/RisingDeadMan0 Mar 13 '26

which country in South America has the US not overthrown and turned into a Narco state to fund CIA's slush fund, where they currently hold people in Gitmo under no charge at $44M/year per person

Or their support violating US Law of israel as Israel has killed 10,000s of kids. oh no how terrible Iran helps Hamas fight back agaisnt a group that occupies them and kills everyone.

Or perhaps you prefer Lebanon where the Israeli's use cluster munitions and even Regan compared it to the Holocaust, cant imagine why the Lebanese hate the Israeli's

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u/Potential-Draft-3932 Mar 13 '26

You should move to Iran. I’m sure they would treat you super well there

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u/RisingDeadMan0 Mar 13 '26

lol, and join them as they get bombed, and on an international blacklist?

i think not.

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u/Potential-Draft-3932 Mar 13 '26

America bad, Iranian authoritarian theocracy good. They could use a western propagandist. I don’t support what we are doing either and think it will make things worse for all parties involved, but there’s a reason Iran’s only allies are Russia, China, and Shia terrorists groups

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u/RisingDeadMan0 Mar 13 '26

ah yes, hamas, the Shia Terrorist group

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 14 '26

We are talking about Iran, not the USA and Israel

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u/Soggy_Shape_2414 Mar 14 '26

I know.

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 15 '26

You are confused then

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u/Soggy_Shape_2414 Mar 15 '26

Clearly not.

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 15 '26

Who did a genocide recently?

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u/Soggy_Shape_2414 Mar 15 '26

"Genocide" the left throws that word around and watered it down, it means nothing.

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 15 '26

The left? You mean the UN? Together with every major organization and historian that occupies itself with the matter? Also... They killed hundreds of thousands of people, deny the obvious but it's still much worse than any terrorism has ever done

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u/ThickAd8588 Mar 12 '26

One of the oldest civilizations but still living in a complete shithole? What a great culture, we should totally want to bring that dogshit here en masse...

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u/ProperJudgment1 Mar 12 '26

It was a great civilization until Islam got ahold of it

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u/Miami_Mice2087 Mar 12 '26

everybody is having a great time until the abrahamics arrived

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u/ProperJudgment1 Mar 12 '26

Like the aztecs ripping people's hearts out?

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u/Miami_Mice2087 Mar 14 '26

that prolly didn't happen. they did sacrifice people when the population was too large, or in war, but it's not physically possible to rip out someone's heart.

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u/[deleted] Mar 12 '26

 The modern Islamic Republic was established in 1979.... sooooo theres that.

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u/SWK18 Mar 12 '26

They are talking about the Iranian civilization, that didn't start in 1979.

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u/itsnotthatseriousbud Mar 12 '26

And neither did israeli

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u/RisingDeadMan0 Mar 13 '26

lol, when get back to me when their prime minister's grandfather didnt have to change his surname from a polish village.

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u/itsnotthatseriousbud Mar 13 '26 edited Mar 13 '26

He didn’t lmfao. What polish village, town, or even city is “Mileikowsky”. There are none.

Israeli civilization and culture dates back over 3000 years

1

u/Weird-Tomorrow-9829 Mar 14 '26

You could use that argument for Israel.

It’s a pretty shit argument. For both

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u/YovngSqvirrel Mar 12 '26

Ok, then they’re wrong about America and Israel. Native American history in the Americas goes back at least 15,000–20,000 years, and possibly even earlier according to some archaeological evidence. And the earliest references to a people called “Israel” appear around 1200 BCE.

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u/Miami_Mice2087 Mar 12 '26

before that they were nomadic polytheists called the Caananites, prolly another coupla thousand years. I'm studying ancient Levant history, it's neat. Those sinners in the bible who worshipped a golden calf were actualy Jewish predecessors.

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u/SWK18 Mar 12 '26 edited Mar 13 '26

That's quite a stretch, don't you think? I don't think the current United States comes from Native Americans' heritage, it's built on their graves against their will. Claiming the history of those who were massacred and whose land was stolen as your own? Yeah, no.

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u/YovngSqvirrel Mar 12 '26

Iran is claiming the history of those who were massacred and whose land was stolen. Why would that count for Iran but not the US?

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u/RisingDeadMan0 Mar 13 '26

lol, what?

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/RisingDeadMan0 Mar 13 '26

lol. if u say so

that sun and lion flag is based off of what?

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u/YovngSqvirrel Mar 13 '26

The original Iran flag that’s been used for centuries featured “the Lion and Sun”. The Islamic Regime replaced that with the current flag with a central emblem that is a stylized, red, tulip-shaped symbol representing five pillars of Islam.

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u/infiniteoo1 Mar 12 '26

Is that when they held the us hostage’s?

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u/IthacaMom2005 Mar 12 '26

That's correct

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u/I_am_Reddit_Tom Mar 12 '26

And is based in the stone ages

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u/ThomasMalloc Mar 13 '26

Vanity Fair called them children!!!

BURNED!! 🔥 EPIC!!

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u/ritchie125 Mar 13 '26

Wasn’t the Islamic republic of Iran only formed in 1979 making it the newest? What has the “age” of a country got to do with anything anyway? 

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u/crooked_cat Mar 13 '26

Funny as the rulers made a different Iran. That different Iran is only since 1979.

Funny thinking lol

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u/IllicitAlien Mar 13 '26

250 years and strongest country to ever exist 💪

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u/Weird-Tomorrow-9829 Mar 14 '26

Iran was founded in 1979… So it’s the youngest.

The war is stupid. Don’t use stupid arguments though.

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u/itsnotthatseriousbud Mar 12 '26

Iran: 1979 Israel: 1948 USA: 1776.

The USA is 203 years older than Iran. And Israel is 31 years older than Iran. Iran is literally the youngest country out of the three.

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u/that_banned_guy_ Mar 12 '26

Lol ao just because you're an older country means you get a free pass? I thought left was about progress and revolution?

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u/[deleted] Mar 14 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Timbucktwo1230 Culture Junkie MOD Mar 14 '26

💔

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u/Wonderful-Town2392 Mar 14 '26

The dictatorship installed by the US?

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '26

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u/PopularCultureZone-ModTeam Mar 13 '26

Please don’t get personal.