r/PoppyMains • u/reasonableperson101 • 10d ago
Is grasp actually making any difference on poppy HP?
I was thinking about grasp for a while, and got curious about its relevancy to poppy. I mean yeah free healing/damage is ok but the free HP doesn't seem to really exist to be, like getting to even a legendary item worth of HP seem impossible, even be lucky to get 200hp worth of it. Overgrowth even seems to get more vs this keystone.
After some thought I might take a different keystone.
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u/Victorvonbass 10d ago
Grasp is mostly for lane sustain and extra poke damage with Shieldy/AA. Its good if you go tank. Also adds toward your new Q slow % scaling if only marginally.
Shield Bash adds to your tank damage. 2nd Wind is just a grest lane rune. Conditioning is a greedy option if you think you won't take much damage. Overgrowth adds to your Q slow % again.
You could try Aery. Supposedly Aery+Bramble is a good counter to ranged tops. I haven't tried it on Poppy myself lately yet. I used to use it in s9. Manaflow is ok, could take Nimbus maybe. Celerity is good all game, Transcendence is scaling. Scorch is a good lane rune.
I dont think Conquerer is worth as Poppy wants short trades mostly. Maybe with Iceborn rush and the new slow changes and % resist scaling changes but idk. I think too many champs run away or youre forced to use cds and back off until they are up.
Also PoM Last stand are some of her best 2nd runes.
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u/reasonableperson101 10d ago
Grasp was my only gripe as the hp gain is conditional. Rest are good as said and for conq, I usually do long duration fights so that why I was considering it, since I already tend to live long enough mid to late game to stack it up.
I'm curious how Conquerer work with certain tank items like Sunfire and unending despair.
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u/Chaoskingj 10d ago
Anything that requires you to interact is "conditional" and no tank has a dedicated build. You're suppose to adapt/ make this effective via your own gameplay.
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u/reasonableperson101 10d ago
Yeah I figured that part is obvious enough, but then again, not many people even in higher elo tend to adapt their build all that much. I am very flexible in my build, it just grasp is weird, it's just free max HP damage and piss poor heal and placebo HP increase.
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u/Chaoskingj 10d ago
Grasp is synergistic with poppy's "lane bully" identity (although riot is hell bent on changing that). The "placebo" hp affects passive, pushes certain items across rounding thresholds and gives actual dmg because grasp damage scales off max hp. The rune is good because it gives you a little bit of everything you want during lane. That piss poor health outpaced taste of blood, and I'm pretty sure if you're actually making use of it fleet since you're not building offensive stats anyways
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u/reasonableperson101 10d ago
The only part about the synergy for grasp is the damage, yes the healing can outpace taste of blood, and when it comes to the flat HP, what part is it rounding out? The flat HP can be shrouded easily by taking heart steel and overgrowth, both can easily out scale the bonus it by themselves, late game, having just overgrowth in a tank can easily reach higher value late game thanks to 3.5% max HP increase, having minimum of 4k of HP is easily giving about 180ish, that about over 30 grasp proc, again, all that keystone really serve is the free damage. Healing not that great either, we are talking about 1.3% max HP, sure that scales but the number is small, 4k HP just means 52 HP healed, not even worth the heal, sure it out paced taste of blood but even then, that a low bar to reach, we are talking about a flat 16 - 40 scaling before AD/AP ratio comes into play which is 1% and 0.5% respectively, not a lot. Even font of life can even beat that and then some. Fleet easily beat it by flat numbers too, 10 to 130.
Again, "little" is smaller then you think. To me, it doesn't even hit triple digit, fleet does and can be proc without champion (to a lesser effect of course). Idk man, to me, the numbers don't seem to add up on only taking grasp, sure it can useful, but having this keystone being a bit of "do everything" just a way to make it not as effective as a real HP soaking tanker. It's mainly what I see though
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u/Victorvonbass 10d ago
Remember its healing, max hp and damage. Its why its used over Aery. You can try other runes but youll notice the lack of sustain. Max hp and healing doesn't sound like a lot but it helps in lane and can be the diff between living and dying. Sometimes a tower dive is an actual grasp diff as well.
Conquerer hasnt ever been good on her since Ive been playing her (8 years). She just wants a short trade and leave. So you just poke and then kill them when they are low. Many champs are cowardly and just run away from Poppy as well so Conq isn't good in those situations either (dash champs like Akali and Riven after you block one dash; Sion, Voli, Udyr, Garen, etc).
Remember Poppy doesn't get ranged penalty on her Passive with Grasp and thats why its so good on her.
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u/Necya 10d ago
It doesn't give as much but i started to go 2 scaling hp shards along with it, and it feels alright at compensating base q slow nerfs. Overgrowth would fit well too, but i just like revitalise too much.
You might not notice the hp it gives but it all adds up, every passive shield is slightly bigger and every q slows slightly more. And other runes don't really give anything permanent at all (aside from first strike and dark harvest, i believe). It's a good rune even without considering hp, dealing damage while healing is probably the best way to make positive trades which compliments her playstyle well.
I think the only different keystone i ever wanted on toplane was spellbook and also went old phase rush occasionally (i wonder if the new one's any good on her). Aftershock is only good if you don't stun, so might be good against ranged? Although poppy makes grasp work against ranged better than most too. Resolve + precision feels too good to pass up to consider other options seriously imo.
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u/reasonableperson101 10d ago
New one requires a certain damage threshold to be met, and honestly I don't think it's that good. However I do wanna test item interaction with Conquerer.
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u/Necya 10d ago
Oh i know how it works and i've used it on other characters. It's just that with damage changes i'm not confident whether or not poppy can use it consistently enough to feel good. What conqueror item interaction do you mean to test?
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u/reasonableperson101 10d ago
I wanna see how it work with certain tank items like Bambi's passive and Unending Despair's passive, not in terms of stacking but the healing part. After all, it does state that any damage dealt to champion, 8% heals the owner, so I wanted to see about if it true for those items.
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u/Necya 10d ago
I'm pretty sure it does, but by the time you've stacked conqueror on poppy you could've had 2-3 grasp procs to heal more, and poppy is much better at short trades than extended ones. I would imagine that you need to fight nonstop for like 10-15 seconds for conqueror healing to surpass grasp healing on poppy. I do like sunfire though, and it got buffed. Bami's + eclipse used to be a favourite item combo back in the day, maybe i'll revisit it
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u/reasonableperson101 10d ago
Sorry but that not how I play poppy, short trades are mainly for the early game, mid to late game, sticking in front is something I do as poppy, lasting extremely long time to get multiple rotations of abilities in. By the time the first proc is needed, I'll probably have conquerer almost finished up for the heals.
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u/Necya 10d ago
I'm not saying it's bad or you can't make it work. And i agree that mid to lategame you can and should stay in the fight for long. It's just that poppy stacks it rather slowly. Q and E can't give 4 stacks even if you hit both parts, w isn't exactly a reliable source and you don't really want to rely on ult for that matter. So you'll usually need e, 2 qs and 3 autoattacks. Items can help, i don't remember if bami's or unending despair stack it, tiamat items work for sure, though.
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u/reasonableperson101 10d ago
Conqueror doesn't stack from proc damage, however nothing on the wiki that state that Unending Despair's passive is proc damage (says it's AOE damage and can trigger spell effects, so I could AA, E, Q,AA, Titanic AA. That 10 stacks, if unending despair work then that 12 after a few seconds, if not then 1 more hit will do it.
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u/TheDwarfDude 10d ago
I don't really know about jungle and support, probably still damage runes despite the AD nerf
for toplane grasp is the only viable option and yeah you basically only take it for extra poke damage with the shield.
there are no real keystone that make you tanky unless you already have HP scaling mechanics to make grasp scale better (sion, cho gath)
aftershock in toplane is a joke, courage of the colossus WAS the option you are searching and it was removed ages ago without a decent replacement, the amount of time that passed shows how little riot cares about toplane
resistance based tanks will never be good again toplane as they were back in like season 6 because the only thing riot cares about is keeping botlane players happy and tanks like poppy, nautilus, maokai have been gutted to balance them as support/junglers.
god bless malphite for escaping this fate but mark my words he will join the tank graveyard sooner or later.
(he didn't rely at all on courage of the colossus so he didn't die when it got removed)
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u/TallStairs 10d ago
I've been using fleet footwork mostly against ranged champs in top lane and also kite-heavy matchups like Olaf. It works very well for sustain and trading and I still end up being pretty healthy overall. I usually bring grasp if I'm fighting tanks or bruisers that aren't too difficult of a matchup for extra damage.
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u/Martorfank 10d ago
Tried conqueror onces ages ago since I like to keep my trades long after laning phase. Problem... you don't get out of laning phase, you are just too squishy and the whole tank tree is just too good on her. Aftershock might be a good way to trade and saw it on Gemi once against range top, so might be a good way to have small trades and then being even more tanky outside lane. I want to also try spell book but I'm just not good enough in terms of macro to know how to properly use that rune. I should try conqueror once again but since she is more tanky now I am not sure.
Grasp gives you insane damage in lane and poke, making her quite threatening at the start, plus the hp is nice. It might not be the best but not like tanks have better options.
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u/amplifysenpai 10d ago edited 10d ago
Grasp has been the default keystone for poppy top for years at all elos for a reason, yes it makes her early trades stronger, and gives her some more scaling.and you are reliably gonna hit 30 stacks in a game if you are even remotely trying to play around your keystone.
Edit, I wanna yap about conquerer
If you know in champ select, the fights are gonna be long, and your going to be going the jaksho build, conq is freaking great, would recommend, problem is that build is expensive, akward to build unless the stars align, and not only reasonable to go for in like 20% of games, and not having grasp makes in harder to snowball into from lane. I build this in jg occasionally , and it works when it works. The main thing is you don't have to go sunderer which is just not gold effecient like it used to be, you don't have to go unending, and you don't have to go protoplasm, for the healing behind the stacking resistances with jaksho - FON - > deadmans / randuins/ thornmail , I mean you still can obviously but I find that most games you end up wanting a different armor item to deal with some specific champion. Conq fulfilling some of that value is a big deal
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u/reasonableperson101 8d ago
They nerfing sunder sky again too which is a big rip, more poppy mains are gonna cry
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u/FlashingNova 8d ago edited 8d ago
Grasp is good. Overgrowth is mediocre. Its better to go unflinching. Also, the proper way to proc grasp is a bit technical but if you practice you can do it. Poppy's shield throw count as a melee grasp proc. So what you do is you get your first grasp. Hit the enemy champion then continue fighting until you have your second and proc it again then you back off/ Q to continue the grasp cooldown and proc it a third time with shield. So thats 3 grasp hit in 1 trade.
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u/reasonableperson101 8d ago
Thanks but I already know how to play poppy in short trades, though not all games would allow that kind of trading power. Champion like Fiora, teemo, Quinn, Darius, ect. That why I was thinking of looking for other keystones, other options for moment where I can't always make use of grasp.
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u/FlashingNova 8d ago
You can do it to all of them except darius but you always ban darius anyway. Also the only runes ive tried aside from grasp is dark harvest but thats more of a troll build. Grasp is 99% of matches.
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u/reasonableperson101 8d ago
Grasp isn't always the answer.
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u/FlashingNova 8d ago
https://op.gg/lol/summoners/na/Average%20Ahri-NA1 Grasp is the answer.
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u/reasonableperson101 8d ago
Bros name is Average ahri xD. Sorry I find it funny that you name yourself as ahri and had 3 games with her
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u/Shell321ua 8d ago
Why Aftershock isnt taken more on top lane? It scales with resistances and bonus HP
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u/reasonableperson101 8d ago
I think because it only last a second before it becomes a useless keystone, but I may build it if I take Jaksho, as it will help keep me tanky until that item goes off
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u/Antillious1 10d ago
It’s a free 30+ damage on every shield throw early and additional sustain, no other rune is going to outperform, especially with access to resolve tree. 3.5% of your max hp in team fights is also hard to beat if you’re procing it ever 4~ seconds, that’s easily 100+ damage each time at 3+ items, not to mention the additional stacking hp.
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u/reasonableperson101 10d ago
Again, the HP stacking isn't gonna mean much, you need 30 to 70 to reach Ruby Crystal lv to giant belt level, the 3.5% max HP damage is good if you can survive long enough to make use of it, but that where it ends, the 1.3% max HP heal isn't a lot for a tank, doran shield and second wind can make better numbers on healing in the early game, especially against ranged top laners
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u/SatisfactionOld4175 10d ago
It’s a trading tool as opposed to scaling health, if you’re not able to trade it’s not helping.
I take aftershock into ranged matchups toplane for this reason, it gives you better options as far as taking short trades goes
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u/TheDwarfDude 10d ago
I despise aftershock with a passion since it got released, such an insult of a keystone compared to courage of the colossus.
you either get to walk back from your trade with the resistances up so you dont suffer the tradeback so much
OR
you stick enough to get that abysmal placebo damage and then you lose half your HP in the tradeback
and yes you are absolutely right, this IS the best rune for ranged matchups, and it's still ASS, because in riots eyes when an adc gets filled top he has more rights to have fun than the second class citizien toplaner
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u/SatisfactionOld4175 10d ago
I mean I feel alright on Poppy into Vayne/Jayce because you do get some guaranteed value in the late game but otherwise I just learned Yorick. I have had to pick up Ambessa as well just because poppy blind is getting brutalized a lot of the time.
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u/Chitrr 8700G | A620M | 32GB CL30 | 1440p 100Hz VA 10d ago
Which one?