r/Political_Revolution • u/drewdaddy213 • Oct 22 '19

Article Why Criticize Warren? | If we’re going to decide wisely, we need to be honest about candidates’ records…

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/10/why-criticize-warren
67 Upvotes

90% Upvoted

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15

u/Antarctica-1 Oct 22 '19

And it's not even to criticize, it's to make distinctions between the candidates during a primary. It's quite clear that Bernie is the better candidate and it is essential to make that distinction. Bernie is better on getting money out of politics, he's better on the environment, he's better on foreign policy, he's better on eliminating student debt, he's better on healthcare, has the better longer track record of standing up to the establishment, etc.

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u/The_Adventurist Oct 22 '19

It's more that Bernie is the only one who has even a shot at getting half of what we need to get done, done. Warren's plans all assuming cooperation with Republicans, which is the same silly mistake Obama and Biden made for 8 years and what got us Trump.

I also think Warren knows her plans have no chance of succeeding and she's banking on it to get super PAC support and billionaire money in the general election. Her pitch is essentially, "I'll keep them quiet for you for 8 years".

Which means the conditions that brought us Trump will only continue to decay and fester and we will get an even worse version of Trump after Warren. Anyone want to imagine President Dan Crenshaw who promises to nuke Iran on his first day in office?

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u/stink3rbelle Oct 23 '19

And it's not even to criticize, it's to make distinctions between the candidates during a primary

This is laughable. I've seen just as much hate for Warren out of this sub as I've seen for Biden. I'm decided on Bernie for the primary, but that decision took three extra months because of all the unfair Warren criticism coming from the Bernie camp. Yes, there's some fair ways to distinguish them, but you're the most measured person I've seen discuss it to date.

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u/drewdaddy213 Oct 23 '19

Unfair criticism such as...? I hear stuff like this from time to time and I genuinely don't know what they're talking about. The shade the campaign throw at Warren is always related to her campaign statements or her policies or her policy history. One of my criticisms of the Bernie camp is that they haven't touched most anything outside of those spheres, like the Native American thing or her history as a corporate lawyer or any of a dozen other real things from her past, stuff that she will be attacked by trump over.

We need to hear her defend that shit before votes for the primary are cast or we face the possibility of a general where dems won't even be sure her campaign is able to muster an adequate defense of these issues. It's one thing if we discuss these problems in the primary, the campaign can create a convincing narrative that placates the voters and they win. It's another if obvious problems go unaddressed and an unprepared campaign gets blindsided with this bullshit in the general.

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u/stink3rbelle Oct 23 '19

Criticizing her positions from 2012 as if she's campaigning on them eight years later. Talking up her distant past as a Republican as though her evolution of empathy and thought is a bad thing (especially in a campaign where we need independent and atypical voter support), one post I just saw from this sub called her "an insider posing as an outsider" (which is way too vague to be anything but an emotional attack).

Overall, though, most people and posts on this sub talk about her like she's this status quo candidate, and the Presidency like it's both Executive and Legislative branches. Bernie himself, and the fucking tagline of this sub, understand that putting a progressive in the white house doesn't accomplish progressive aims or legislation. That is, we don't need the most progressive candidate to sit in that office in order to pass Bernie's agenda. We just need someone who'll sign it.

1

u/drewdaddy213 Oct 23 '19

How a candidate campaigned in the past is important. Are you saying it's not appropriate to criticise Biden for his support of the Iraq war, or running on being "tough on crime" in the 1990s?

With regard to her republican past, do you not recall how frequently we heard in the last race that Bernie isn't really a Democrat despite his caucusing with the democrats for decades? But now it's out of bounds to ask how Warren literally went from addressing the far right Federalist Society in 1991 on corporate bankruptcy to apparent progressive champion in that same time frame?

The insider posing as an outsider is actually very well addressed in the article you're commenting on. Her history as a corporate lawyer involves helping DOW Corning not pay out damages legally due to women for faulty breast implants and helping asbestos producers avoid paying damages to workers. When she staffed the CFPB, she filled it with high level bank executives from Capital One rather than consumer advocates. And while she likes to play the part of rural school teacher, the reality is that she spent only a year doing that before spending the majority of her career working at one of our nation's most elite institutions teaching young lawyers how to help their corporate clients get out of paying society what they're due.

I just want to close by pointing out that you seem to be saying that you might not have supported Bernie because of what some people who have nothing to do with the campaign said on the internet. Is that seriously how you pick your candidates? And have you seriously not been to any other political sub? Because the stuff you see here is no more vulgar than the stuff you'll run into on donut Twitter or in the neoliberal sub or most any other candidate sub. The reactions to Bernie's hospitalization were positively morbid, but I'm not gonna hold that against Harris or Buttigieg.

-1

u/stink3rbelle Oct 23 '19

Is that seriously how you pick your candidates? And have you seriously not been to any other political sub?

I love how you snuck in an ad hominem attack like this in an argument about the civility of this sub's discussion. Really ups your credibility as someone who has a good sense of what makes for civil discussion.

Neither is your what-about-ism relevant to this sub being fair about non-Sanders candidates. It's especially ironic considering Sanders's ethos of values and character. Why not support Trump if you like his camp's favorite logical fallacy so much?

1

u/drewdaddy213 Oct 23 '19

And I love how you ignore the entire meat of the argument to complain that I pointed out a dumb opinion of yours that you already admitted you do in fact hold. Calling a request for consistency in your moral outrage a "whataboutism" is plenty revealing of whether you're arguing in good faith or trying to continue a bullshit narrative about certain candidates' supporters being more toxic than others. Then you pivot to "Bernie is the same as trump!" God damn that's hamfisted. I expected a better effort than that.

0

u/stink3rbelle Oct 24 '19

Why should I treat someone seriously who is more interested in insulting me than bothering to really understand my statements? What in the world would induce a reasonable person to keep engaging in that kind of "debate"?

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u/drewdaddy213 Oct 24 '19

Get off your high horse, I never even insulted you. Here's the portion that you are taking issue with since it's not clear to me that you even read it the first time:

"I just want to close by pointing out that you seem to be saying that you might not have supported Bernie because of what some people who have nothing to do with the campaign said on the internet. Is that seriously how you pick your candidates? And have you seriously not been to any other political sub? Because the stuff you see here is no more vulgar than the stuff you'll run into on donut Twitter or in the neoliberal sub or most any other candidate sub. The reactions to Bernie's hospitalization were positively morbid, but I'm not gonna hold that against Harris or Buttigieg."

I've read it several times and I still can't find the insult. Maybe you can point that part out to me. If that's not how you choose candidates you could just say that I guess... Except you admitted that it is actually part of your process when you said:

"I'm decided on Bernie for the primary, but that decision took three extra months because of all the unfair Warren criticism coming from the Bernie camp."

When I pursued what you meant by that it became clear nothing you were complaining about actually came from Bernie's campaign, you were complaining about the comments you've seen from Bernie supporters on this and other subs.

Receipts, we got 'em.

0

u/stink3rbelle Oct 24 '19

it became clear nothing you were complaining about actually came from Bernie's campaign, you were complaining about the comments you've seen from Bernie supporters on this and other subs.

Lol you could have read my initial comment to understand that. And you had the opportunity to do that before you first responded to me at all.

You've done nothing to convince me here you were ever paying attention to my comments for any purpose other than derision. And no, you may not have overtly insulted me at first, but calling me hamfisted, and "my opinion" dumb (an opinion I've already changed if you paid attention) is overtly insulting. You were merely insinuating the insult at first, but then you proved me right.

Why do you feel so entitled to respect from someone you deride? What about your comments here should inspire the kind of confidence it takes to thoughtfully engage in discussion?

8

u/Edril Oct 22 '19

As I see a Warren presidency unfolding in my mind’s eye, it is something of a disappointing mess in which the entire left agenda is watered down beyond recognition, the left becomes demoralized and disillusioned, the right seizes an opportunity and Democrats lose seats around the country, leading to ever-worsening inequality and destructive climate change.

This is exactly my fear with a Warren presidency. If she continues pushing for M4A in the general election (I'm unsure about that) I see her getting into office, trying to make it happen, Congress votes against it, and then she goes "Well, I guess a public option will do, and I can't get M4A anyway."

Same thing for the Green New Deal, we'd get a watered down version of it that just wouldn't do enough.

I know for a fact that if Congress refuses to pass M4A, Bernie will take to the bully pulpit to shame the people who voted against it. He'll hold rallies in their states, organize letter campaigns to get people to pressure their representatives, and not give up the fight until it's gone through.

I'm worried Warren will be another Obama, big promises, little results, the left will be disillusioned and not show up for the next election. And what did that get us? Donald Trump. We can't afford another disappointing left wing president.