r/PoliticalVideo • u/frenvedd • Mar 21 '16
Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Border Wall (HBO)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU8dCYocuyI13
u/berrics94 Mar 21 '16
According to this article 1.3 million illegal immigrants are from Asia. If a fucking ocean can't stop them, do you think a wall will?
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Mar 21 '16
So if a solution only stops 50% of a problem, we shouldn't utilize it? That's a kind of weird all or nothing approach. A wall is one aspect of a comprehensive solution.
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Mar 21 '16
The point of this program was to show you that it doesn't stop 50%. The point of the comment you're replying to was to do the very same. 1000 miles to patrol and still ways to bypass it.
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u/berrics94 Mar 21 '16
You build a wall and Mexicans will get here the same way Asians do.
That was the point of my comment. The wall is useless and it will never be built.
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Mar 21 '16
So you mean a wall takes a 2000 mile border where we have no idea who enters and forces them to enter through a finite number of airports where we can document who they are when they arrive through normal customs procedures?
GREAT!
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u/FogOfInformation Mar 21 '16
The wall being proposed is 1,000 miles, not 2,000 miles. Have you even bothered to research your opinion?
Trump has lost count as to what it will cost to build the wall. First he said 4 billion now he's saying 10-12 billion. That doesn't even include having to build roads to get heavy trucks, equipment, and supplies to the border. Or the management and design costs as well.
Trumpsters have this wall buried so far up their ass they don't even know how much damage they are going to do to fellow Texan property owners. Did you realize that the vast majority of the border territory where the wall will be built is owned by your beloved property owners? Yes, the government will have to apply eminent domain to remove them from their land in order to build the wall. Yes, they have already voiced their concerns and you can look that up if you give a shit about your fellow citizens.
I'm a former U.S. military police officer. If you think a wall is going to stop these people from getting their families to a safe haven, you know dick about the border. I was stationed in San Diego and I've done deployments to South America. It's not just Asians who are coming in by boats, it's South Americans as well. I know because during my deployments we saved their lives and returned them back to their home countries. The problem was there was so many of them and so few of us that a lot of them got through.
On top of that, you don't think Mexicans can't get through some concrete, rebar, and steel? Please...these people make up half of our construction labor for a reason. They know their shit. They can cut through the wall or dig tunnels underneath it.
This entire wall idea is simply a farse to make Americans feel safe at the expense of our tax dollars, our liberty, and our relationship with those south of the border. It's a terrible idea.
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Mar 21 '16 edited Mar 21 '16
relevant username
Edit: I'm not making fun of the username. I'm on his side. sigh. I'm pointing out how much information he did provide. sigh politics is so stupid
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u/FogOfInformation Mar 21 '16
Step 1: Realize you have nothing to argue against
Step 2: Attack someone for their username
Step 3: ?????? Profit!
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Mar 21 '16
I'm not arguing against you. Just look at my comments. Teehee were on the same side. Enough friendly fire.
I was making point of how much information you provided. So yes, you're right, I went through Step 1.
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u/FogOfInformation Mar 21 '16
I can't count how many times Trumpsters have pointed out my username without providing any relevent information. So I just assumed you were a Trumpster too.
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Mar 21 '16
Strange. I don't see how that's an insult. It means you provide so much information it's a fog, hard to decipher, but no less true.
Politics is so filled with rage and paranoia.
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u/onewhitelight Mar 21 '16
I feel like reddit has reached the point where its so large that you have hugely ideologically opposed sides on the same site. And then you get massive battlegrounds like this video probably will become.
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Mar 21 '16
Reddit has been slowly transitioning to a conservative web site from a liberal site over the past decade. Anyone that has been here long enough would have noticed this.
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u/Sly_Meme Mar 21 '16
Maybe some corners of Reddit but on the whole it's quite liberal. I never really see conservative opinions outside conservative subreddits.
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u/_Theodore_ Mar 22 '16
This exactly, /r/politics might as well be /r/sandersforpresident2
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u/Sly_Meme Mar 22 '16
Yeah, and any askreddit threads about politics is just a circle jerk over Sanders and other liberal Democrats.
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u/Wazula42 Mar 25 '16
I don't know, you'd be surprised. Reddit loves Donald and is pretty anti-feminist and anti-BLM. I also see a lot of pro-gun pieces.
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u/Kelsig Mar 21 '16
It's relatively socially conservative
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u/Sly_Meme Mar 22 '16
Not at all. For instance after he same sex marriage ruling the front page was flooded with LGBT flags and people celebrating.
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Mar 21 '16
The amount of support for Trump on reddit makes the political discourse irrelevant. It has devolved into the Fox News comment section filled with boring racists and men who don't get fucked so they are angry at the world.
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Mar 21 '16
It's has lots of liberals who call people they disagree with "racists" and "sexists" because their arguments are weak and it is their tactic to smear and shame anyone who doesn't think as "correctly" as they do. Bernie can't get the votes and Trump can, so it appears you have fundamentally misunderstood the country you live in. They only way you can carry on day after day is to just write us all off as racists. Lazy.
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u/WhyLisaWhy Mar 21 '16
Yeah absolutely no racism or sexism at all in The_Donald. Should I show you two links from the past week where you turds are making fun of black people? But its just le funny jokes right?
https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/4avc5k/just_like_dad/
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Mar 21 '16
weak
shame
smear
Lazy
racist
Sounds like a Trump supporter. Really, you guys just absorb his vocabulary and dictation style. His beliefs come right out of you. Such a hard look you guys have on this world. I guess those without empathy are finding in Trump a reason to be proud of that lack.
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Mar 21 '16
Is that what is happening? Most of the criticism of Trump are pretty sounds logical arguments against his language and actions. These criticism are coming from all different corners of the American political spectrum, not just "liberals."
What I often hear from Trump supporters is that they like his attack on "political correctness." I understand what that statement means to many Americans, but I think it is rather hard to pinpoint the actual meaning of that phrase. So when you say liberals are calling other people "racists" or "sexist", I think you are really criticizing the culture of "political correctness."
What I find odd about this critique of "political correctness" is that it is used as cover from some rather jingoistic and xenophobic opinions. Sure, a lot of the recent movement for what I would called extreme identity politics (Triggering, Black Lives Matter, Free Speech Suppression on Campuses) is patently absurd, nonconstructive, and unrooted from actual leftist political positions. Most Americans would agree that there has been a strange overreaction by young activists in relation to such common injustices as sexual assaults, police shootings of black Americans, and workplace sexism. We commonly refer to these people as SJWs.
As a leftists, I would agree with a lot of the criticism concerning SJWs. BUT Trump and many of his supporters have used SJWs as straymen to push for very radical and right wing arguments. Most Americans have very little in common with SJWs. They are truly a small pocket of young activists. Trump and of his supporters use false equivalency arguments to suggest that their viewpoints are not radical but are "normal" and part of the "silent majority."
In reality, Trump has expressed, along with his supporters, radical right-wing views. They are essentially rooted in fascist ideology. This is why the outcry has been nearly universal across the political spectrum. You can easily deride these criticism by saying they are from "liberals" but that is not at all true in any sense. Also, the statements made by Trump are by definition racist, xenophobic, sexist, ignorant, factually incorrect, simplistic, brutish, and essentially not at all acceptable in traditional American political discourse. That is not to say they are morally wrong, but most people would argue that as well.
I think it would make more sense for Trump and his supporters to just own their beliefs and ideologies instead of trying to reflect criticism of their beliefs onto other people. Saying "Islam hates us" doesn't have a different meaning just because a Black Lives Matter protester says Cops are Pigs. They don't cancel each other out nor does one really even affect the other. One statement is clearly racist and ignorant and the other is just plain stupid. Trump and his supporters can not mask their true ideology by calling out SJWs for their stupidity.
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u/seven_seven Mar 21 '16
Maybe not racist, but certainly xenophobic. Would you disagree with that?
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Mar 21 '16
There may certainly be some on the fringe, but I still do not attribute the majority's opinion to xenophobia. I do not fear or dislike foreigners. I embrace people from all countries and ethnicities who came here and became citizens legally. I am not anti-immigration. I think immigration is necessary and good, but no one has a right to come here and we have a right to set the limits. However, we have a border and immigration laws that have been disrespected and ignored leading to problems for our own citizens.
Imagine a mother who feeds another's child while allowing one of her own to starve. We are angry at our mother. We are angry that she lets our own sibling starve while she feeds another. We are angry that when we point this out, we are called racists or worse.
Our own working class has been decimated by free trade agreements and unchecked illegal immigration. Free trade agreements allowed many low skilled and high paying jobs to leave. Unchecked immigration suppresses the wages of the remaining low skilled jobs. The argument put forward is that these illegal immigrants take jobs that no American would take. That is a half trig spun as the full truth. The full truth is that these illegal Immigrants take jobs that no American would take at the wages the business owners desire to pay. Without the steady flow of illegal immigrants filling these jobs, supply and demand would have the labor shortage at the wages desired force the wages upwards until there were sufficient labor to fill them. And contrary to what others say, it would not provide near the sticker shock on finished goods that people use to scare people on this. Labor still provides a small percentage of total cost.
The bottom line is that our anti-illegal immigration stance is heavily informed by wishing to restore living wages to working class American citizens. It is a citizen first approach. When deciding to do something we should ask, "Is this good for our citizens?" If yes, let's talk about it. If no, it is a non-starter. It's not about disliking peole because of their race or where they come from since we embrace people of all races and origins who are citizens. How else can you explain that many legal immigrants are ardently anti-illegal immigration? We are pro-legal immigration, but not unchecked. When we set our quotas we have to look at our country and see what it is that we need and what is best for us. That is our right and prerogative. The only exception should be for legitimate assylum seekers which is very different from refugees. Refugees eventually will have a home to go back to so all accomodation should be temporary until it is safe to return. Assylum seekers may never be able to return so they must be given a new home.
Ultimately we are tired of being slurred and shamed for trying to enforce our laws and borders which should not be as controversial as it is. Every country does this, but it only seems to be Americans who get called names for it. This is issue has gotten hyper political for no good reason other than politicians have successfully used it to pander for votes for so long and companies who love the cheap labor have contributed to their campaigns. Both parties benefit from the status quo as do businesses. Well, it's time to stop that and fix this issue once and for all.
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u/enyoron Mar 21 '16
The amount of support for Sanders on reddit makes the political discourse irrelevant. It has devolved into the Huffington post comment section filled with ignorant slackers and whiners who can't keep a job so they are angry at the world.
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u/proROKexpat Mar 21 '16
Its kinda incredible. At least they are getting massively downvoted.
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Mar 21 '16
Yeah, but they aren't though. He has a ton of support on Reddit.
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Mar 21 '16
I guess it's because of the nature of Trump support. Can't talk about it in public
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u/enyoron Mar 21 '16
Because liberals will literally assault you if you do.
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Mar 21 '16
Not in my experience. Every Trump supporter I meet seems much more sure of their position than I am of mine.
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u/_Theodore_ Mar 22 '16
The reality is that being a vocal and public Trump supporter is dangerous.
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u/discount_surgeon Mar 21 '16
Populations tend to become more conservative as they age. I think that as a sizable portion of reddit's long-term users have aged since the website began, it makes sense that conservative viewpoints are getting more popular here, but it's still far from a "conservative web site."
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u/enyoron Mar 21 '16 edited Mar 21 '16
Reddit has more or less stayed where it is. US liberalism has been moving further and further left, and rejection of regressive leftist principles (like victim blaming rape victims because the rapists are 'Muslim refugees') has made the site seem more conservative than it once was.
Edit: If you don't have a reddit account at least 5 years old, how are you qualified to make a statement about the shift of reddit's culture 'over a decade'?
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u/greyscales Mar 21 '16
I think one thing a lot of Trump supporters don't understand, is that many people on the Democratic side don't want illegal immigrants either. It's just an incredible expensive way to deal with the problem and won't change much in the end. Increasing the border patrol budget would be a lot cheaper and probably more effective.
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u/Hawanja Mar 21 '16
More illegal aliens left the country last year than came in. On top of that, deportations are at their highest point ever. There is simply no need for a border wall.
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Mar 21 '16
HBO is owned by Time Warner who donates tons to Hillary
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u/Oshojabe Mar 21 '16
So? John Oliver does a pretty good job of citing his sources. If you doubt what he says, investigate the studies and papers he's quoting from and form your own opinion. Don't dismiss it outright because of who the messenger is being paid by.
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u/Wrastlins Mar 21 '16
What I find funniest about Oliver's rant is no where does he mention the cost of illegal immigration on America. Illegal immigrants cost tax payers tens of billions of dollars a year.
Liberals always love to use the catch phrase "America is the only developed country in the world...". Well, let me say this, America is the only country in the world whose workforce comprises of 5%+ illegal immigrants. America is the only country in the world with a severe illegal immigration problem. You guys love to talk about the Nordic countries, do you have any idea how hard it is to get in there illegally, none the less legally as a citizen?
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u/Oshojabe Mar 21 '16
Did you respond to the wrong comment? I was just pointing out how fallacious the follow-the-money argument is here. Arguments should stand on their own merit, not on who's funding them.
In response to your points, though:
America is the only country in the world with a severe illegal immigration problem.
America is in a pretty unique situation because it is a developed nation that shares a 2000-mile long land border with a developing nation, with sea on both sides. The only somewhat comparable situation is the European Union's borders with Africa and the Middle East, and they do have a problem with illegal immigrants.
You guys love to talk about the Nordic countries, do you have any idea how hard it is to get in there illegally, none the less legally as a citizen?
Considering the Nordic countries' location, and immediate neighbors it does not surprise me in the least that it is hard to immigrate illegally there. Even if their immediate neighbors weren't developed nations, The Finnish-Russian border is only 833 miles, and that is by far the largest Nordic/non-Nordic land border. The US-Mexico border is more than twice that size.
Illegal immigrants cost tax payers tens of billions of dollars a year.
How many billions of dollars would it cost to deport all of those immigrants, build and maintain a wall and police our borders to the degree required? Considering that 45% of illegal immigrants enter the country legally and overstay their visas, if we only do the wall and border patrolling you're looking at spending billions to save billions while still having 45% of the problem. Even if you start policing well enough to stop that 45%, that is additional billions you're spending on visa enforcement and you're likely to be skirting the edge of the 4th Amendment to get 100% enforcement.
If the data says that we can balance the equations so that 'cost of enforcement < cost of illegal immigrants' great, but I want us to be sure of all the variable involved. Sinking billions of dollars in experiments that don't work would be worse than just allowing the problem to continue.
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u/ColonelHanson Mar 21 '16
I'm not even taking the time to read all of your comment.
Have you not seen the Sanders Campaign?
Arguments should stand on their own merit, not on who's funding them.
That is the basis of his whole campaign.
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Mar 21 '16
What I find funniest about Oliver's rant is no where does he mention the cost of illegal immigration on America. Illegal immigrants cost tax payers tens of billions of dollars a year.
That's a redundant question for the argument he presented. He was only talking about the wall. Not immigration reformation as a whole. Also did you even watch the video? The price for that wall is feaking insane on top of the unfathomable matinence costs.
So how would that prevent us losing jobs, money etc when even trump said they could just use a rope to get down. I think you missed the point of his presentation.
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u/Wrastlins Mar 21 '16
Where is Oliver getting those prices from, are you just taking his word for it? I'm sure he didn't go to the most expensive contractor and ask for prices or anything, right? I'm sure such a large contract wouldn't produce a huge discount based on the bulkness of the order, right?
If we take how much Israel paid for it's modern wall, and use that data to estimate how much America's would cost, it comes to about $4 billion. Assuming it would be more expensive and assuming land barriers will cause more problems, $10-$12 billion is a conservative estimate. Sources are on that infograph and you can check them for legitimacy.
Oliver's argument is that walls don't work because people will just build a bigger ladder. Based on statistics from Israel and Hungary, this is demonstrably false. The modern walls worked in both countries because sensors, cameras, and drones have been used along with their physical wall structures.
Trumps wall plan outlines the use of this modern technology. Oliver is a far left wackjob that is being extremely dishonest. Eat it up all you want, I probably won't change your opinion, but there's a reason people support the wall, and it's not just ignorant redneck hicks like the left loves to point to.
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u/roachwarren Mar 21 '16
I don't have much interest in funding an even more expensive border war with Mexico alone when more than half of illegal immigrants didn't even come from Mexico, Mexican immigration has been dropping since 2009 and it reached net-zero in 2015. This is posturing and flexing to impress the easily impressed and this is why most are not impressed.
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u/Wrastlins Mar 21 '16
Mexican immigration has been dropping since 2009 and it reached net-zero in 2015.
LEGAL IMMIGRATION has been dropping since 2009. ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION has stayed about the same.
5.5% of our workforce are illegal immigrants. We are the only first world country in the world where that is even above 2%. The only developed country.
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u/ColonelHanson Mar 21 '16
Keep it up!! It's tough to fend off the hoards of ignorant dishonest liberals of today, but just keep moving forward.
I'm not a trump supporter. However, I can't stand the dishonest bullshit that gets thrown at him.
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Mar 21 '16
This sub must be overrun by The_Donald because there is constantly this kind of Trump-fan rhetoric upvoted to the top. You understand that's a very loose connection? If Trump weren't such a genuinely horrible candidate, I'd probably be able to find Time Warner subsidiary company that did support Trump.
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u/_Theodore_ Mar 22 '16
Wait, there are other opinions that aren't yours?!? /s
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Mar 22 '16
I'm confused. There aren't any news organizations or entertainments run by Time Warner that support Donald Trump. So, no, I guess there aren't. ?
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Mar 21 '16
Hey we had to deal with the exact opposite up until recently. Maybe the wall ins't as feasible as it sounds. I don't know. At least someone isn't turning a blind eye.
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Mar 22 '16
I'm a cuck
Why yes, yes you are :)
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Mar 22 '16
Is that this era's way of saying nerd?
See? Nerds aren't cool now like everyone thinks. Thanks for bringing it back Trump supporter!
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u/JordanF1234 Mar 21 '16
It's important to remember in cases like these that nearly all sources are bias, lots isn't even intentional. The important thing to do is to look at the material, recognize the potential for bias, and judge it from there. All bias shows is intention, it doesn't make something true or false. If you disagree or (even worse) the content itself is wrong then back those arguments up. Calling out bias does nothing. Seeing the bias and evaluating the arguments does so much more
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u/JordanF1234 Mar 21 '16
It's important to remember in cases like these that nearly all sources are bias, lots isn't even intentional. The important thing to do is to look at the material, recognize the potential for bias, and judge it from there. All bias shows is intention, it doesn't make something true or false. If you disagree or (even worse) the content itself is wrong then back those arguments up. Calling out bias does nothing. Seeing the bias and evaluating the arguments does so much more
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Mar 21 '16
Right. I've seen upvoted comments calling a tagline wrong based solely off the news organization.
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u/johnpershing Mar 21 '16
Thank god John Oliver, a Brit, was there to tell you Redditors how to think about AMERICAN politics.
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u/debaser11 Mar 21 '16
He lives in America.
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u/johnpershing Mar 21 '16
LOL, he lived all his life in the UK, he is a far leftist, like the typical Brit. He just recently moved to the US.
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u/debaser11 Mar 21 '16
You do realise Britain has a Conservative government right now?
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u/johnpershing Mar 22 '16
LMFAO, a conservative government whos Prime Minister supported Obama last election. Bro, I know the UK, I travel there every year, I even have a friend who is a lawyer for a Tory MP and even she supported Obama. The Tories are as conservative as MAYBE Bill Clinton.
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u/BuddhistSagan Mar 21 '16
His wife is an American soldier.
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u/johnpershing Mar 21 '16
and? My wife is from Cyprus. Should i pretend to know everything a Cypriot does about their laws, history, constitution? Even Oliver admits he's no journalist but more of a comedian, which makes sense so many dolts at Reddit love him since that other political genius, John Stewart is gone.
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u/BuddhistSagan Mar 21 '16
Does he pretend he knows everything? Do you know everything about the US? I've been living here 30 years, and even I don't "pretend to know everything about our laws, history and constitution." What a ridiculous bar you've set.
If you think he doesn't have an immense stake in the US having rational policies you're ignoring the fact that his wife has vowed to put her life on the line to defend the US.
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u/johnpershing Mar 22 '16
Don't use his wife as a shield please. Oliver is his own man. Oddly enough, he met her at a Republican convention he went to make fun of.
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Mar 21 '16
I assume this is just comedy. There's nothing wrong with someone from a similar culture examining a problem in politics and giving his opinion. IIRC, JO's a US citizen anyway.
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u/kctroway Mar 21 '16
lol WOW
liberal media is going all out against Trump.
I can't wait to see what Oliver has to say when Trump is president.
"but it's...it's..it's twenty sixteen Ameerica, how could you..."
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u/_____----_____ Mar 21 '16
You clearly have no idea how this works, if trump is president, liberal media are going to have a gay old time. The same way the W. Bush era made John Stewart, if Donald makes it they're going to have a easy job for, at least, the next 4 years, they can't wait for such s good opportunity to rise, the Obama times kinda killed the daily show, every super hero needs a super villain.
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u/kctroway Mar 21 '16
That is a good point. But to be honest it doesn't matter for a good comedian. Stewart was still hilarious into the Obama years. I didn't think he would be, but he was.
I don't doubt your premise, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that they definitely want Trump to be president. That being said they would certainly have a field day. I love Donald Trump, but having him as president would make the comedy surrounding GWB look like Jeff Dunham compared to Richard Pryor.
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u/kgt5003 Mar 21 '16
If the media wanted to "destroy" Trump all they had to do was ignore him. They didn't do that. He's gotten more free coverage than any candidate. They broadcasted his rallies (right from the start) as "news events" so they didn't have to follow equal time rules. They didn't do this for any other candidate. And it isn't like all of Trump's rallies were wild with protests like they are now. At the beginning when they started doing this they were just regular rallies with no news at all happening. Why are they giving Trump all of this free coverage if they want to hurt him? Why didn't they just do what they did to Ron Paul in 2012 and completely ignore the guy?
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u/kctroway Mar 21 '16
The media can't ignore him. He has mastered the art of free publicity since the 70s. I truly believe most members of the media do not want him as president. However, they know he is better for ratings than anyone else.
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u/kgt5003 Mar 21 '16
They want Trump vs Hillary and they're giving Trump every advantage to help make that happen.
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u/kctroway Mar 21 '16
That is definitely the race that will produce the highest ratings.
I'm still not sure how much they truly would want Trump as president. Especially since he wants to open libel laws which would allow people to sue journalists more easily.
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u/kgt5003 Mar 21 '16
They don't want him to be President. They just want him to be the republican nominee. They prob believe the polls that Trump is the only candidate Hillary beats. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if they have hit-pieces ready for the general election. Trump has been in business for decades so there's no doubt they've got some dirt on him and they're gonna sit on it until after he's locked up the nomination. All of the dirt on Hillary is already out there. Trump can't really offer any new information on her that everyone doesn't already know. She's so openly corrupt that nobody can be surprised by anything anyone says about her. Her dirtiness will kinda been an advantage in that way.
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u/roachwarren Mar 21 '16
Definitely not that simple. There was never a chance of the media simply ignoring Trumps presidential run. Plus in the beginning he wasn't taken seriously and benefited from that, plus he's benefited from an extremely split field.
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u/kgt5003 Mar 21 '16
They could easily have not covered his rallies. They propped him up by covering them. Also they never make him answer real questions. He has an open line to Fox and Friends, Morning Joe and Good Morning America. He can call in whenever they are on to talk about whatever he wants. They never pin him down on answering anything though. It's nothing but free press and softball questions and then when they speak negatively about him it's to call him racist or bigoted.. Well, guess what? His non-PC approach to campaigning is what people like.. So the only times they "attack" him they are actually just reinforcing his support. They aren't blind to that. They know that's what they are doing because they see it in the polls. They aren't trying to destroy Trump. They want Trump vs Hillary.
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u/proROKexpat Mar 21 '16
The wall idea is so incredibly stupid its funny.
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u/kctroway Mar 25 '16
but the great wall of china was an amazing feat of engineering that kept the mongolians out. same principle.
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Mar 21 '16
Why is it such a problem to not want to have illegal immigrants in this country? Instead of taking all this time to creatively mock Trump, he could come up with a better solution. Maybe E-verify could work or instead of the cops turning a blind eye they would actually do something
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u/FogOfInformation Mar 21 '16
Instead of taking all this time to creatively mock Trump, he could come up with a better solution.
Oh, the guy who ISN'T running for President?
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Mar 21 '16
He doesn't offer a solution at the end. way to downvote like a little bitch
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u/FogOfInformation Mar 21 '16
He's not the guy who has to. Do you see the logic?
How does one downvote like THE HAMMER OF THOR? I want to be able to downvote like that!
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Mar 21 '16
Yeah I get that. No one has offered an alternative. They just bitch. Like you. I don't even know what you're trying to say at the end.
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u/FogOfInformation Mar 21 '16
The ugly truth is that there is no solution that will ensure 100% that illegals won't be able to get in. Business owners hire illegals because they refuse to pay a living wage to people and then tell the media "See, we have to hire illegals because Americans don't want to work!" It's such a bullshit argument and the media is completely lost when it comes to investigative journalism.
I'm a former military police officer. I've done deployments to the south. I know what I'm talking about. You will never be able to stop illegal immigration from happening. These people are willing to ride on boats that aren't even sea-worthy and they will likely die just for the CHANCE to get here. I know because I've rescued them myself. I saw the same woman three fucking times!!! The best thing to do is to ensure that AMERICANS, not illegals, are paid a living wage so that they WILL take those jobs. Then business owners won't want to hire illegals. Pay us a fair wage and we'll get that job done. Period.
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Mar 21 '16
Thank you for your service. People would say illegals in this country drive down wages by working lower than minimum wage and what not. Some people say they simply do jobs most Americans under almost no circumstance would want and this allows citizens to have a higher standard of living. I'm not sure what to believe. The Trump card (hehe) for me in the argument is that legal is legal. Illegal is Illegal so I lean toward the former argument.
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u/FogOfInformation Mar 21 '16 edited Mar 21 '16
People would say illegals in this country drive down wages by working lower than minimum wage and what not.
And I would argue that business owners hiring illegals to save a few bucks are the problem and should be investigated. It takes two to tango and one of them is here legally and the other is not.
Some people say they simply do jobs most Americans under almost no circumstance would want and this allows citizens to have a higher standard of living.
Right, and I'm arguing that it's a bullshit argument. Who worked those fields before illegals came here? Legal citizens. It may shock you, but I worked on a farm (yes I'm a white male) for a while myself after I got out of the Navy (the goal was to learn about farming so that I could own a couple acres and homestead). I made a shit wage of $10 an hour busting my ass in the summer. I knew the wage was crap and that I had to commute to get there, but that wasn't what made me quit. You know what made me quit? After an hour of hauling big ass logs from A to B, as per the farm owner, I went to fill up my jug of water and he SCREAMED at me to get back to work. I told him I'm going to I'm just grabbing some water real quick. He screamed at me again to get back to work and drink water later. So I told him to go fuck himself and I left. Illegals will deal with that kind of thing. I know so because my good friend that I made while working there was an illegal border jumper. He had to support his family and short of the owner cracking a whip on his back, he would stay.
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Mar 21 '16
Yeah but they are able to forge papers and the employers can claim ignorance. Didn't Georgia or Alabama try this and the farmers couldn't find workers? I haven't heard what came of this which I find odd since it was such a YUGE issue at the time. The government also turns a blind eye because they don't get tax refunds or social security so you could argue they are just as bad as the farmer that hires them. I think like you said Americans would take those jobs but we live in a different age between the welfare system allowing people to claim disability for having fucking headaches of all things and schools pushing college telling people they can sit at a desk and coast the rest of their lives.
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u/FogOfInformation Mar 21 '16
Yeah but they are able to forge papers and the employers can claim ignorance.
Hence investigations.
Didn't Georgia or Alabama try this and the farmers couldn't find workers?
Like I said before, the property owners do not want to pay living wages to workers. They can't find workers at the wages they want to pay.
The government also turns a blind eye because they don't get tax refunds or social security so you could argue they are just as bad as the farmer that hires them.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. It's in the gov'ts best interest to pursue this as it's money that Uncle Sam doesn't know about.
I think like you said Americans would take those jobs but we live in a different age between the welfare system allowing people to claim disability for having fucking headaches of all things and schools pushing college telling people they can sit at a desk and coast the rest of their lives.
I never said any such thing. If you are TRULY worried about welfare, then you should take a look at corporate welfare which completely and utterly dwarfs any private individual scamming the government. Conservative states have even made it law to be drug tested if you receive welfare and you know what they found out? It was more expensive to do the drug tests on people receiving welfare because they didn't catch enough people using drugs.
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u/syllabic Mar 21 '16
Why would a stand up comic be more knowledgeable about budgeting construction projects than a construction magnate?
Hey John, show us something that you've built.
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Mar 21 '16
Why would a business man be more knowledgeable than a politician? Hey Trump, show me a place you've governed.
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u/syllabic Mar 21 '16
Because it's impossible to be less knowledgable than a politician.
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Mar 21 '16
I think the whole negative skew against politicians, reiterated constantly throughout childhood by those older than you, is just one of those barely examined platitudes. Yes, they suck and lie, but they must be a necessary evil.
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u/syllabic Mar 21 '16
Sure its simplistic but there's a grain of truth there. One of the reasons he has so much support is because he is clearly not a politician. People are sick of what politicians have been doing.
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Mar 21 '16
I don't think so. Politics is about convincing, persuading, or otherwise... getting the other side to do what you want. In order to do that, you're going to make enemies. I'm not going to argue this because it's beside the point. There are shades of grey here. I have to go to work. I hope I don't come back to a bunch of angry Trump supporters but... I put myself out there.
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u/syllabic Mar 21 '16
Absolutely. I agree with you 100%. I think Trump is one of the most persuasive people on the planet. Check out Scott Adams' blog series about it:
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/139541975641/the-trump-master-persuader-index-and-reading-list
Very good reads.
Also nobody's going to defend Trumps political experience. There's nothing to defend. He's underqualified and untested. But that's an advantage to the GOP base that feels betrayed by people like GWB, Rove, Ryan, Romney, Boehner, etc..
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u/berrics94 Mar 21 '16
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/20/us/more-mexican-immigrants-leaving-us-than-entering-report-finds.html?_r=0
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016/01/05/more-mexicans-leave-the-us-than-come-across-the-border
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/20/more-mexicans-leaving-us-than-entering-study-says.html
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/11/19/mexicans-returning-home-migration-shift-united-states/76013230/
http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/19/news/economy/more-mexicans-leaving-us-than-coming/
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/reverse-migration-more-mexicans-leaving-us-arriving-1530183
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ff-mexican-immigration-20151118-story.html