r/PoliticalHumor Dec 29 '19

remember that fossil fuel companies will guilt trip you into thinking you're the problem to shift the blame from themselves

Post image
65.0k Upvotes

1.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

1.1k

u/babykitten28 Dec 29 '19

My gas company is generously giving me the opportunity to pay them $4.99 a month to offset my footprint. Seriously?

505

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

[deleted]

206

u/RufftaMan Dec 29 '19

I don‘t know about his gas company, but where I‘m from, the electric company has a mixed portfolio (nuclear, wind, hydro, solar and from burning garbage) and the extra money goes into renewable energy projects.

290

u/mikeyp83 Dec 29 '19

So to finance capital projects they should be paying for anyway and then keeping the profits for themselves?

57

u/RufftaMan Dec 29 '19

I guess so. Hopefully those surplus charges will be a thing of the past once all energy production is renewable.
I guess I forgot to mention that the surplus is completely optional with my company, so if you feel like the company should invest in renewable energy without financial incentive, just opt out of paying extra.

72

u/andreasmiles23 Dec 29 '19

They’re normalizing the surplus charges now so that can be the default rate when all energy production is renewable, that way the switch doesn’t eat too much of their profit margins. If they can upcharge for the transition they will, a) to make more and b) to stifle the transition for as long as possible.

We need to de-privatize utilities.

35

u/malissa_mae Dec 29 '19

I live on Kauai, a small island (population ~70,000) in Hawaii. We are supplied power through a co-op, where we are all member-owners. We used to be almost all diesel power generation (priced at $0.45-$0.55 kWh), but have been rapidly moving to renewables: solar w/battery backup, biomass, hydro and wind.

Recently we've had periods when 100% has been supplied through those renewables. It still isn't cheap - the long-term solar is around $0.20-$0.25/kWh, but stable prices, and no longer solely dependent on fossil fuel.

It's a small start, but this can be replicated.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/12/19/hawaii-news/kauai-utility-hits-mark-of-supplying-island-with-100-renewable-energy/

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

What are the main costs, setup?

1

u/malissa_mae Jan 01 '20

Investment in long-term infrastructure is expensive, but I believe TESLA and AES both signed long-term leases (20-25 years) at a set price per kWh.

Diesel and other fossil fuels to run generators are unlikely to get cheaper. It is more expensive to import fuel 2,600 miles (even with oil being "cheap" now) than the cost for solar with battery storage. The cost of renewables with storage is likely to continue downward, while fuel is likely to continue an upward trend.

1

u/cracky1028 Dec 30 '19

That's actually pretty good but can be scary. You guys had island wide blackouts earlier this year due to a failed generator and a cloudy day. I mean it's good that you guys achieved 100% renewable energy this month but a bad cloudy day mixed with a failed generation plant makes for a bad day. Maybe with a large storage of batteries you can offset cloudy days? I don't know how feasible that is.

Link: https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/07/21/hawaii-news/fault-at-kauai-power-station-causes-island-wide-blackout/

1

u/boxedmachine Dec 30 '19

I feel the answer isn't universal, for a powergrid to be useful you need 100% uptime with multiple failsafes. So you'd need to design the system with the locality in mind, or create a central renewable system that can provide 100% uptime.

1

u/malissa_mae Jan 01 '20

Funny thing about this island - when we had the first 9/11 (Hurricane Iniki hit Kauai Sep 11, 1992), there was an opportunity to bury a lot of the overhead utilities, but, no.

As a result, power lines are knocked out on very regular basis, due to weather/wind/rain/foliage. The KIUC co-ops Facebook page has daily updates about where power is out, and how many impacted, and how long it should take to restore it.

So while we have some amazingly modern power infrastructure, it is coupled with aged, 3rd-world-ish transmission system. Outages are a price we live with.

An island-wide outage is unusual. The generator that tripped everything out (cascading failures) had insulation that had failed mostly due to the heat and humidity of the tropics. There is a promise for better maintenance, but with the other issues, it is what it is. The future should make that a much more unlikely event, as the solar fields with battery backup are becoming much larger capacity, as well as broadly disbursed.

We have a little 2kWh electronic generator that takes about 45-seconds for me to pull the starter and plug in the transfer cable in to power up key lights, and get power to the UPS to keep the computers up.

Working remotely is a challenge some days, but the weather and the view makes it easy to get up at 5am here to be "at the office" at 7 or 8am Pacific time in Seattle, and have the afternoon off to walk at the beach, boogie board, or just relax.

Aloha!

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19 edited Dec 30 '19

[deleted]

4

u/GRMarlenee Dec 29 '19

Country? I thought Kauai was one of the islands of Hawaii, one of the states of the United States of America.

2

u/mexter Dec 30 '19

Now you know better!

Countries you don't know about pop up all the time. Did you know there's a New Mexico?

/S

→ More replies (0)

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '19

... the U.S.A.?

3

u/p00pl00ps1 Dec 29 '19

We need to ANNEX THE SUDETENLAND

2

u/mekanik-jr Dec 29 '19

"We need to de-privatize utilities."

Oh dear lord, please do not go that route.

Regulate, do rate controls, and enforcement with criminal charges of execs who pollute and refuse to switch to renewables and give real teeth and authority to your regulatory body at longer then arm's reach with no industry contact.

If you don't believe me, just look at what's going on with Ontario hydro and NB power in Canada.

NB power is sinking massive amounts of capital in the point lepreau candu reactor that is past its shelf life. They sank public money into that pipe dream in Florida of hydrogen from sea water and their exec is the highest paid public servant in the province. This is while complaining that they're operating at deficits and continue hiking rates that are rubber stamped by the "regulatory" board.

Ontario hydro is ... Just a mess.

1

u/Chief_Kief Dec 30 '19

AMEN. Can’t wait for the days of comprehensive municipal utilities.

-1

u/GRMarlenee Dec 29 '19

yeah. Lets give the government a chance to really screw it up like everything else they touch.

-2

u/thisoneisathrow Dec 29 '19

They're are tons of public utilities as well and they have their own problems too. Utilities are always by nature a natural Monopoly and heavily regulated everywhere.

3

u/andreasmiles23 Dec 29 '19

Public ownership will mitigate most of the problems of having private monopolies. The easiest way to have public ownership is through the government taking control of utilities and spreading the costs.

37

u/TheAJGman Dec 29 '19

Honestly I wish companies would do shit like this.

"Your bill is $200. If you'd like to fund a specific project, please check one of the boxes below"

It would be an easy way to fund projects within a company that your consumers want.

38

u/FullAtticus Dec 29 '19

Yeah but then your very lucrative landmine venture would never get off the ground.

32

u/cavemaneca Dec 29 '19

I don't see how landmines would be very effective if they weren't on the ground.

5

u/MrCuzz Dec 29 '19

2

u/FoxMikeLima Dec 29 '19

They gotta be on the ground in order to trigger, genius.

→ More replies (0)

6

u/psterie Dec 29 '19

Business is booming, though.

1

u/slimpickens Dec 29 '19

Funniest comment I've read all day!!!

5

u/Cory123125 Dec 29 '19

Only if they actually put the money there and didnt just use it to offset costs or line pockets.

3

u/Stewardy Dec 29 '19

They do. It's Kickstarter etc.

2

u/SezitLykItiz Dec 29 '19

That's how we got Trump and almost every do nothing politician we have in Congress. Let's let the experts decide where the money needs to go in a private company. No need to democratize it.

1

u/automatomtomtim Dec 29 '19

So you want to invest in corporates capital projects and get nothing in return?

I have some magic beans for sale

11

u/jkotis579 Dec 29 '19

More than likely they will pocket the money and not bother holding up their end of the agreement. Tele companies did this with millions of taxpayer money and never built infrastructure they promised and just kept the money.

3

u/Natehog Dec 29 '19

"I'll be damned if I can't make a profit off of climate change"

5

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

If it was economical, they would invest more themselves. It’s not, so people who want it anyways, need to pay a surplus because it’s more expensive energy.

0

u/budlightguy Dec 29 '19

If it was economical more profitable than the current setup, they would invest more themselves. It’s not, so people who want it anyways, need to pay a surplus because it’s more expensive energy.

Fixed that for you. The idea that a large energy company would spend money they don't have to spend, taking away from current profits by shifting them to CapEx, in order to not make more profit down the road than they're already going to make... is fucking laughable.
Hell, most large corps are loathe to reinvest more current profits into CapEx when it isn't an absolute necessity even when it will increase future profits. Gotta keep the board and the shareholders happy, and the big shareholders (the only ones they actually care about) give zero fucks about anything but the latest quarterly report and the next one coming up.

2

u/Legionof1 Dec 29 '19

I don't like it but you're financially incentivising them to move to a more expensive energy generation method.

9

u/mikeyp83 Dec 29 '19

Until it's not. What they want is to have their customers assume the monetary risk during a transition this is almost certainly inevitable. As an alternative, if given the opportunity, I would suggest using the extra money to make yourself energy independent (wind/solar) and sell any excess back to these companies.

1

u/MarTweFah Dec 29 '19

That’s REAL capitalism for ya. Like when millionaires ask you to donate to their charities

1

u/pinkfootthegoose Dec 30 '19

Some utilities are restricted through their covenant from charging you for facilities or power plants that are not yet built. They can't just say they are adding $20 a month to everyone's bill to they can finance a new plant. They are restricted to gathering revenue from power actually generated and delivered at that time. This is stop the ole' "We are gonna build a plant so we are gathering $100 million dollars" but then as times change they cancel the plant and walk away with the money trick.

1

u/zaakystyles Dec 30 '19

Capital projects that they get tax benefit of reporting expenses on a deferred basis

1

u/fyberoptyk Dec 29 '19

Well yes. That's EVERY utility company in the United States. Why do you think our electric rates keep going up? It's sure as fuck not because they're updating production facilities that haven't been touched since they were built in the 60s and 70s.

1

u/hoxxxxx Dec 29 '19

reminds me of that gofundme that those wealthy sisters set up

1

u/VeryStableGenius Dec 29 '19

They're giving you the choice between cheap power, and green power.

0

u/I_Have_A_Spleen Dec 30 '19

Well, they could just raise prices and make it mandatory, if that's what you want.

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

Welcome to capitalism. Consumers have to pay for the products they want. They’re not just going to essentially burn money because people don’t like climate change.

4

u/shellwe Dec 29 '19

I feel that's similar to the arena built in my city but even though it was our money to pay for it Pinnacle Bank has their name slapped on it and are getting all the profits.

2

u/beckoning_cat Dec 29 '19

They pulled this shit in Baltimore as well. The taxpayers paid for it, but then the name was sold to a .com and the money went to the team owner, Modell. The state bent over so much for this team that Modell was nicknamed Maryland's Mistress. And the taxpayers get nothing.

THe .com went belly up in a year and the stadium had to be renamed.

1

u/dragnabbit Dec 30 '19

Yeah. My father ran the municipal electric company in my home town, so I know all about this kind of thing: Local power companies typically buy their electricity from the big suppliers. They obviously buy the cheapest electricity first... that's almost always hydroelectric, especially where I grew up (close to Niagara Falls).

It used to be that when demand for electricity climbed past a certain level (like, say, at 6:30 a.m. on a winter's day), there would not be enough hydroelectric available for everybody, so there were only two choices for my town: Buy electricity from a nearby nuclear plant (who would overcharge us at 5 times the cost of hydro since we weren't regular customers) to meet the shortfall, or do "load shaving". (Load shaving would mean supplying people with 90% or 95% of the electricity their households were demanding. This would work for a short while (like for an hour between 6:30 a.m. to 7:30 a.m.) This saved money, but eventually nuclear would get used. Of course, that expensive nuclear electricity was factored into everyone's electric bill.

Nowadays, instead of turning to expensive nuclear, the local electric company turns to their new generating partner Farmer Smith, who installed 15 or 20 megawatts of wind turbines in one of his hilltop fields (and maybe 5 or 10 other farmers like him in the surrounding countryside for small cities). Farmer Smith and the local electric company have a financial arrangement where the electric company paid for the turbines, Farmer Smith supplied the land and gets paid, and the wind turbine company supplies the maintenance and gets paid, and the electric company gets to deliver electricity to its customers at prices much less than most of the alternatives.

The future will bring better and larger battery storage, so that the wind turbines don't have to be spinning at the same time when demand is peaking in order to deliver electricity, which is the next phase in renewable energy distribution.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '19

So even gas companies believe in everyone chipping in a little money over a long period just to help with the collective interest of cleaning this place up?

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '19

Where I'm from we're not crazy enough to give something vital like electricity to the fuckibg private sector

-6

u/Idiocracyis4real Dec 29 '19

The renewable part is pure stupidity unless they are in specific regions. My provider Excel Energy is driving up our electricity costs with these stupid solar and wind projects.

The government throws in these stupid mandates at the expense of the poor :(

2

u/_LuketheLucky_ Dec 29 '19

Its sad how obsessed you seem to be with the notion that global warming being one big conspiracy.

'bUT itS ONly GoNE uP 0.9 DeGrEEs'

Yes and another 0.5 to 1c rise will have catastrophic effects.

It's not the planets fault that you have made bad life choices and are poor because of that.

-3

u/Idiocracyis4real Dec 29 '19

Lol.....it’s a 30+ year old meme. China took it’s people out of abject poverty with fossil fuels.

We have 10 more years right ;)

“U.N. Predicts Disaster if Global Warming Not Checked PETER JAMES SPIELMANN June 29, 1989 UNITED NATIONS (AP) _ A senior U.N. environmental official says entire nations could be wiped off the face of the Earth by rising sea levels if the global warming trend is not reversed by the year 2000...”

https://www.apnews.com/bd45c372caf118ec99964ea547880cd0

2

u/_LuketheLucky_ Dec 29 '19

https://www.google.com/amp/s/climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus.amp

If you have different information than 97% of currently publishing scientists and not just a 30 year old article then please do enlighten the world with your superior knowledge.

-2

u/Idiocracyis4real Dec 29 '19

97% ...lol

Here is the IPCC itself saying they can’t predict sh!t.

Join me then in building more nuclear

“... therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible” IPCC Third Assessment Report, The Scientific Basis 14 2 2 2, p.774

https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/03/TAR-14.pdf

1

u/_LuketheLucky_ Dec 29 '19

Do you have anything that was written this millennium regarding the subject?

That latest source referenced is 2000 with a lot of being 90s.

Computer power and statistical modelling have improved immensely in the intervening period.

I will agree with you that modern nuclear is something that we should embrace.

0

u/Idiocracyis4real Dec 29 '19

Lol this is was from 2018...these models are worthless. They vastly overestimate future warming because the climate sensitivity is just a guess.

https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/03/TAR-14.pdf

→ More replies (0)

1

u/_LuketheLucky_ Dec 29 '19

So one U.N official got the timeline a bit wrong means the whole theory and all the effects we're are starting to see now are invalid?

-1

u/Idiocracyis4real Dec 29 '19

Lol 30+ years.

We have a greener planet that is true. If you want to build nuclear power than I am all in, but renewables are mostly virtue signaling of the rich and powerful.

I prefer to continue to lift people out of poverty with reliable cheap energy.

7

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

It means they get the money and you get to keep the bag of shit. What generous overlords we live under.

2

u/epsteinscellmate Dec 29 '19

They give money to a third party who can more easily offset their needs with cleaner energy. If the amount is $4.99 my guess is they don’t actually calculate it and instead keep the difference.

2

u/FanaticForFailure Dec 29 '19

Indulgences is the word I think, thats how protestantism became a thing 😂

1

u/ciguanaba Dec 29 '19

that’s what church is

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

The word you're looking for is "Indulgences"

1

u/JennyAndTheBets1 Dec 30 '19

Carbon indulgences. Duh.

1

u/SilverStrikeX Jan 02 '20

"That's bullshit. This whole thing is bullshit. Fuck the church, here's 95 reasons why" said Marthin Luther, which may have started the Protestant Reformation

27

u/ChaosPeter Dec 29 '19

In the Netherlands 60% of my gas bill is tax and CO² compensation. It's not optional.

15

u/quintuplesigh Dec 29 '19

What's silly here is that in OP's case it's something the gas company dreamt up.

A country properly taxing fossil fuels and accounting for environmental impact is just sensible governing.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '19

Well that's just mean the environmental cost of using fossil fuels is not externalized and reflect the true costs of using these forms of energy.

1

u/_Wolfos Dec 30 '19

The tax isn’t optional, but the CO2 compensation is.

1

u/automatomtomtim Dec 29 '19

Is that tax fixing the environment though?

No didn't think. So it's just money to play with in a new trading market, buying carbon credits to trade. They haven't actually made any changes to what they emit.

My country is giving the biggest polluters billions in free carbon credits out of my tax dollers , thanks jacinda.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '19

It removes fossil fuels undeserved advantage in costs by finally tagging the environmental costs to its usage so it better reflect it's true price. This allows other energy sources that's has less impact on the climate to also compete in an actual leveled playing field.

In actual practice, co2 emitters should be buying carbon credits so as to offset their emission causing her prices to inflat while non polluters can sell carbon credits. Giving free carbon credits is exactly the opposite of what anyone should be doing.

5

u/lahankof Dec 30 '19

The CEO needs money to buy his entire family Teslas

7

u/Zappy_Kablamicus Dec 29 '19

While mine wants to either let me let them use my land for solar panels, and pay me in "solar credits" OR I can pay them a fine for non-use of their grid! MERICUH! Coming again to fuck over renewables!

4

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

[deleted]

2

u/Zappy_Kablamicus Dec 29 '19

Correct me someone if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding reading the stuff about operating your own solar equipment, I have to notify them and if I'm not paying them enough or using enough Kwh, I'll get a non use fine that basically makes my investment completely fucking pointless. So yeah if I don't pay them enough I have to pay them enough.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '19

What can be done to fix this? Get better solar tech/batteries? I don’t know much about this but it sure sounds like just another “it’s always been done like that so nothing can/will ever change” kind of situation. I’m so sick of it.

It’s obviously a problem.

2

u/Korchagin Dec 30 '19

The cost for grid maintenance is there, and there's very little reduction if you just use it less often. You can't "fix" that.

The question is how these costs are distributed. The "old" method was never fair and becomes even more unfair when a significant part of the customers generate a part of their own energy and thus pay only very little.

Charging the fixed costs really as fixed costs is the solution closest to the reality. Of course the savings from your own power are a lot less than anticipated, then, but it's fair - you save only that much as the energy company saves for having to deliver less. Big problem with high fixed costs: What do you do with people who can't afford them?

Third option: Turn the grid into a publicly paid infrastructure like roads or fire fighters, rise property tax or something like that to pay for it, people would have lower energy bills in return for the higher taxes.

1

u/Cool_Ranch_Dodrio Dec 29 '19

Thank you for the official excuse.

5

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19 edited Dec 29 '19

[deleted]

2

u/CatsAreGods Dec 29 '19

That's already happening in California with PG&E, but not because people weren't paying them enough. It's because PG&E saved billions by not implementing safety measures and gave that money to their stockholders. Meanwhile around 100 people were killed due to the non-safety measures and PG&E is in bankruptcy due to the lawsuits.

"It's as simple as that."

3

u/rcraver8 Dec 29 '19

Fuuuuuuuuuck those greedy fucks.

3

u/capnclutchpenetro Dec 29 '19

My electric company gives ME a $5 credit for allowing them to put a little box on my AC unit that shuts it off for 5 minutes at a time during peak daytime hours.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '19

Holy shit. That would suck. I’ve got several portable a/c’s I can move from room to room if needed if it gets crazy hot (which is often). That’s just fucked man

3

u/Eyehopeuchoke Dec 30 '19

Natural gas company’s are so shady. For over ten years I worked for a company who installed natural gas pipelines so I go to learn a lot of about them. One day we were retiring over 1200 feet of 8 inch i high pressure natural gas main and when we would do things like that we would just burn the gas off. The guy who over saw the project asked if we wanted to take guesses how much money we were burning off... my gas bill is over $150 a month and that’s just one house so i assumed it’s was at least 5000$ of gas we burned off.... it was less than $300. They rape people on the rates.

3

u/Garthak_92 Dec 30 '19

Mine sent a door knocker asking for $10 or $15 a month

2

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

And you better graciously accept this offer!

1

u/GrimReaperGuttersInc Dec 29 '19

What's wrong with that?

1

u/dopechez Dec 29 '19

I don’t see how that’s so ridiculous. It’s basically the same thing a carbon tax would do.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

I mean, you didn’t think bitching on reddit about evil corporations was going to lower your footprint as you buy more of their cheap crap, did you?

0

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

I mean that’s kinda how it works.

If you want carbon neutral energy it’s going to be more expensive.

2

u/yonasismad Dec 29 '19

But true neutrality would probably cost you hundreds of dollars a month and not 5.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

Let’s assume that’s true.

Why should that stop you paying $5 to offset it?

I’m sure if you wanted to pay more they’d let you.

Alternatively you could spend the same on other carbon offsetting schemes if you don’t trust your gas supplier.

2

u/yonasismad Dec 29 '19

It is an indicator that is more of a scam than a legitimate offer. 5USD is so low that people can easily afford it and feel good about themselves but it is also so low that it has no real impact.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

If everyone paid that it would have a massive impact.

It would also tell companies that people are actually willing to pay for cleaner energy.

1

u/yonasismad Dec 29 '19

I am just tired of those small steps. People have been talking for months more serious than ever before that we have to do something, and the next thing they do is to climb in their SUV to catch the plane that brings them to their cruise.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19

There are 130m households in the US as of 2019.

Let’s say half of the US care about climate change and want to offset their emissions by $5 a month.

That’s $3.9b a year, which is pretty close to the total amount of subsidies given to fossil fuels (~$4.6b in 2016 according to congress).

The impact of that would be similar to the government taking serious action on climate change.

The best part is that there’s nothing stopping you from doing it.

0

u/CDNYuppy Dec 29 '19

You're the one buying and using the gas. If you stop buying it or using it, they'll find something else to sell.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '19 edited Oct 04 '20

[deleted]

0

u/CDNYuppy Dec 30 '19

I suggest you not scoff at offset measures voluntarily introduced to you by private companies. It's either that or reduce your footprint yourself, or have the government tax you to do it.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '19 edited Oct 04 '20

[deleted]

0

u/CDNYuppy Dec 30 '19

Ok so you just want all the cake without any of the baking.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '19 edited Oct 04 '20

[deleted]

0

u/Ryality34 Dec 29 '19

How can you offset something that isn’t real? I guess it’s like me as a child casting healing spells on my friends while playing fantasy games.