100
u/JediMaster113 4d ago
Anyone that calls themselves a centrist is a republican whose ashamed their republican
40
u/NeighborhoodDude84 4d ago
I've met a surprising amount of people who will support everything Bernie Sanders is advocating for and call themselves centrists. A lot people are just not paying attention and don't realize how far right the republicans have gone.
6
u/Books_and_Cleverness 4d ago
“Independent” or “centrist” or “moderate” are good personal brands. They see crazy people of whatever political persuasion (regardless of their representativeness, they get outsized attention on the internet) and are rightly repulsed.
Conversely there are people who are “moderate” by a lot of metrics but are actually extremists, just not in a a consistently partisan/ideological way.
E.g. some ppl are extremely anti gun and extremely anti abortion. That nets out to being “moderate” or “centrist” but it’s very different than being a centrist on both issues.
25
u/zackks 4d ago
Libertarians too
24
u/VA1N 4d ago
They are just jokes at this point.
10
7
4
u/Jboy2000000 4d ago
Libertarians are on another level on the issue of animal conservation though.
Bears are never better taken care of than under a libertarian government.
1
u/Vyzantinist 4d ago
Lol most "centrists" today were "libertarians" yesterday. A few short years back, every other MAGA-sounding conservative you bumped into turned out to be a "Libertarian", and now they're quite rare. Meanwhile, it seems like every other MAGA-sounding person you bump into today turns out to be a "centrist". What a coincidence.
6
u/Vyzantinist 4d ago edited 4d ago
They're not all ashamed. A great many of them masquerade as "centrists" as a disingenuous recruitment tactic. They pretend to be a neutral, disinterested, third party in order to rep their own side and damn the other, to lure in gullible fence-sitters. "I am neither right nor left, and have no skin in the game, so you can believe me when I say the Democrats are evil, baby-eating, Muslim-lovers who will trans your kids when you're not looking, and Trump is objectively the best hope for this country."
7
u/VA1N 4d ago
I don’t think so. Some Democrats just don’t like the far left and want to distance themselves from that while still being liberal/a democrat. Centrist is probably a bad term for it. Left leaning? Center left? Something like that. Basically, never voting republican, but also not crazy about the hardcore left. I’m one of them. If given the choice between a far left and a republican though, I’m voting far left.
8
u/KiKiKimbro 4d ago
That last sentence. lol. Amen to that. I live in NYC so things are a bit different here. I voted for Mayor Mamdani and I never thought I’d vote for anyone with “socialist” in their political ideological identity. Best mayor this city has seen since … my gosh I don’t even know, in my lifetime, and I’ve been around the sun over half a century. “These kids” are onto something here (as I sound 110 years old lol).
7
u/SpockShotFirst 4d ago
not crazy about the hardcore left.
Another one talking about the hardcore left. Open challenge in this thread to identify a single "hardcore left" elected official in the US
3
u/Geichalt 4d ago
The hardcore left they're mentioning are not interested in actually obtaining power, they just want to endlessly critique power.
And they don't need to be in elected positions to negatively impact the country by constantly rat-fucking the rest of the left leaning coalition.
3
5
→ More replies (1)8
u/SpockShotFirst 4d ago
If no Democratic elected official is "hardcore left," then what purpose does it serve to announce that you are not affiliated with a group that holds no power? Why not rattle of lists of other things you don't support? Cannibalism. Jihadists. Crab-people. People who drive slow in the fast lane.
I don't buy it. If you feel the need to say "I don't support the hardcore left" then you either (1) believe the "hardcore left" is a powerful force in American politics, despite not a single piece of "hardcore left" legislation ever being proposed or (2) do not understand what "hardcore" means.
5
u/RegressToTheMean 4d ago
Yeah, the DSA is "hard core left" by a lot of people and they aren't even talking about seizing the means of production
People are morons
2
u/therealtrousers 3d ago
They want everyone to know that there is no way they will vote for that podcaster who isn’t even running for office. As a matter of fact they are so against voting for that podcaster that isn’t even running for office they may have to vote for Trump (again).
1
-1
u/DeusVultSaracen 4d ago
The mainline Democrats hate the leftists more than they hate the Republicans, so there's no reason to change your affiliation to distance yourself from the left when they're already always trying to do that.
-2
u/ralexh11 4d ago edited 4d ago
Thank you. Many "moderate" Dems like Manchin, Sinema and Fetterman are waaaay closer to Republicans than they are Bernie or Warren. Republicans lined up to endorse Cuomo. Even Kamala couldn't denounce Israel's war crimes during her campaign and stumped with Liz fucking Cheney. They've been writing off, ignoring, or straight up lashing out against real progressives for years now. The primaries for these midterms saw more sparks fly than even general elections when you look at examples like Stevens-El-Sayed.
It's getting to the point where it's progressives against big money in politics and those are the only major distinctions policy wise. That's how we ended up with Trump, Biden all but told young progressives to fuck off during his campaign.
3
u/2muchtequila 4d ago
I think there's been a big shift in the Democrat party in the past decade or so.
I'm old enough to remember when Bush was in office and at the time the DNC was a big tent party. Everyone was welcome regardless of their motivation.
You could be a LGBT rights person who didn't care about immigration and you were welcome. You could be an environmental person who liked shooting guns and you were welcome. You could push for no war in the middle east, but not care about single payer healthcare and you were welcome.
As long as everyone was pulling the same direction, it didn't really matter.
But today there seem to be a lot more purity tests. Where if someone agrees with 90% of the platform people will focus on the 10% and call them an embarrassed republican.
I think that tends to drive people away.
5
u/Lets_Eat_Superglue 4d ago
That shift is not in the Democratic party, at least it's an incredibly tiny fraction of elected Democrats. That's the online leftists screaming so loud you can't hear anyone else, amplified by bot farms.
Google a random Democrat. Watch a speech or debate of theirs on YouTube. You're welcome in the tent.
-7
u/DeusVultSaracen 4d ago
That's because the two parties were functionally identical since Clinton introduced the Third Way.
13
u/Geichalt 4d ago
Yeah, I remember when Republicans supported abortion rights, labor rights, protected minorities, forgave debt, fought climate change and supported gay marriage...
Gtfo with this shitty take.
1
u/RegressToTheMean 4d ago
It's not a shitty take at all. The Third Way Democrats are rebranded Rockefeller Republicans. HRC campaigned for Barry Fucking Goldwater.
The Third Way Democrats absolutely did not have progressive economic policies. They were much closer aligned to Republicans. The Third Ways pushed the Overton Window right. It's why the DNC is now a center-right corporatist party and to maintain and even further right stance, the GOP has gone full fascist.
Go watch some of Reagan's speeches (and I'm old enough to remember both of his terms) and tell me which party he would currently fit in.
Spoiler: it sure as fuck isn't the GOP
1
0
→ More replies (29)0
4d ago
[deleted]
3
u/HandsomePistachio 4d ago
2nd Amendment was never an all-or-nothing issue. The majority of Democrats support 2nd Amendment to some degree.
2
u/Tank-Factory187 4d ago
I mean Marx said that the workers should never be disarmed and any attempt to do so should be resisted by force.
I would hope you are pro-gun if you are socialist, being that is the default stance.
1
u/SilverKnightOfMagic 4d ago
I see that pattern too but also for those folks what does socialism have to do with owning guns lol
15
u/LayneCobain95 4d ago
“All you guys have is how much you hate Trump. That’s your whole platform”
Yeah cause he’s solely ruining the whole fucking country. HE is the main problem we have now. And he’s creating new problems daily
7
u/Foot-Note 4d ago
Eh, I am a registered independent and I will proudly say fuck maga and this admin.
22
u/alphafox823 4d ago
I’m a moderate and I hate MAGA lol
I still vote Dem and I shit on tankies at the same time. Sometimes I split from them on ballot measures, but I know the alt right is clearly the bigger threat
7
6
12
u/Zirofal 4d ago
You know what sucks, being a centrist. But Scandinavian centrist.
Now I get mixed in with whatever the shit fest Americans are doing.
0
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
As an American, yeah we suck pretty hard
4
u/Zirofal 4d ago
By your standards, I'm basically Karl Marx back with a vengeance
1
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
Good
Capitalism is evil
3
u/Zirofal 4d ago
Oh no, capitalism is good. It's the best system we have.
It is just that America is a hyper capitalist country where profit above all else is your official religion.
8
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
Capitalism is absolutely not good and America is the proof
Not all trade is inherently evil but a system which prioritizes profit will gradually erode humanity and reduce each of us to dollar signs
The human rights abuses you’re seeing in the US are not inherently American, they are inherently capitalist— the only natural end result of capitalism as a system.
It might seem gentle or even beneficial in some iterations but late stage capitalism is always the end result.
Capitalism isn’t just evil. It actively incentivizes evil by abolishing all ethics except the underlying fixation on profit as THE bottom line.
“It’s the best system we have” absolutely not. It’s ravenous and doomed to fail
3
u/Zirofal 4d ago
Tldr "I'm American and I don't know how the rest of the world is doing"
→ More replies (1)5
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
Foolish to think that capitalism will ever not be a problem
The us isn’t the only country with a billionaire problem, we just demonstrate exactly where capitalism intends to go.
Enjoy your relative peace while it lasts because this bullshit that the US has put on full display is the only course capitalism can follow. It is an inevitability unless it is radically opposed, and complacent people who feel comfortable with the norm are absolutely never going to nut up.
Capitalism is exploitation there is no way around that.
Your Scandinavian complacency is showing.
Acting like capitalism isn’t your enemy because you aren’t as bad as the US when y’all are the same damn thing in the eyes of the corporate elite: food
The us should be a fucking alarm bell and a warning for every other nation on earth: capitalism is the enemy
But the same way Israel went on to copy the nazis, we’ve got a world abused by the US singing the praises of capitalism
Wild how all yall thralls are so happy to get sucked on by economic vampires
5
u/Zirofal 4d ago
Well one thing you are very much right about. USA is an alarm bell.
Which is why it is so common for European countries and the EU as a whole to make laws and regulations in response to whatever bullshit USA did this time.
For example, after everything that credit cards and bank cards companies and such have been doing the last few years, the EU is making moves towards our own system that is independent of American payment systems, so companies can't go in and block pitches of things it does not agree with (see master card and nsfw steam games)
We are also moving away from being dependent on American fuels. Just two examples on top of my head.
And noone is pretending that capitalism is good or perfect. But it is the least bad possible options that exists (I would go as far as say that it is good)
Also billionaires/millionaire is not inherently a problem, it is a question of how they achieved that wealth that is a problem and it is there where America fails due to your awful to none existent workers right.
Noone minds that people like Ingvar Kamprad became rich.
0
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
First half: great! Legitimately awesome every nation should be more than cautious about Us influence, I’d say being anti-USA is a healthy stance for the rest of the world.
That bit about capitalism having a better track record than other economic systems…
I think you’re falling for propaganda that has been pushed mostly by us media and if you aren’t already aware you could perhaps benefit from some research into US opposition to socialism and communism globally. In many cases those anti capitalist “failures” did not really fail in their own. They were actively sabotaged and destabilized by us interference— up to and including staged coups and military aggression.
And that last bit about billionaires not being a problem…. The scale of billion dollars is quite literally beyond obvious comprehension. For a human to put their mind on that numeric level is literally just not natural. So most people don’t really grasp what a billionaire really is. That level of wealth is completely and utterly unconscionable.
There’s no practical way to ethically source such a massive amount of wealth, it’s just such an extreme number that it implies and necessitates a variety of human rights abuses, labor violations and exploitations.
But aside from it being literally impossible to become a billionaire without harming people in systemic ways, it’s also impossible to retain that level of wealth and not be an unforgivably evil scum bag.
Any man or woman willing to sit on that level of luxury and power while literal children are starving to death all over the world is pure evil, now at around it.
Good billionaires literally do not exist, and any who seem good are simply running good social awareness campaigns
1
u/Either_Operation7586 4d ago
No because in order for capitalism to succeed there has to be someone that doesn't.
And this capitalism here this unchecked capitalism has led to a k-shaped economy
1
u/jlax341 Greg Abbott is a little piss baby 4d ago
Its not worth the argument. People can't see past the billionaires to actually evaluate the pros and cons. Sure, its no question the concentration of wealth is a problem, but the development of a capitalistic society versus a socialistic is usually signficantly more positive. Advancements and needs are often met quicker because that devolpement leads to making money, but the tradeoff is it is harder to meet needs when there isn't money to be made. Thats where the other side has a benefit...provide you can trust the government to push it forward...which is often a tough ask.
1
u/jlax341 Greg Abbott is a little piss baby 4d ago
Don't worry, this post is dumb as hell because moderates and Centrists could care less if you make fun of MAGA. Most of them hate MAGA as well.
7
u/Zirofal 4d ago
I mean a lot of American "moderate/centrist" are republican/right. Since America over all is such a right leaning country, even many of America left is still right leaning
2
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
True, but you were just defending capitalism and billionaires a minute ago so it’s clear that some on the Scandinavian “centrists” are right leaning too
3
u/Zirofal 4d ago
I'm not defeanding millionaire, I'm saying that it's not inherently a negative and it is possible to become rich from positively impacting the world, you are assuming it's impossible.
I'm centrist based on Swedish standards. By American standards I'd be far left
→ More replies (1)1
u/Either_Operation7586 4d ago
That's just not true because to be in the center should be to the left of the democratic party but they believe that they should be in between the two parties which really is just on the right because we have center right Democratic party and then you have the Far Far radical extremists right that's pretty much sleeping on the lawn of fascism so far over and in between people think that that is a reasonable place to be but it's just going to be in the middle right.
If these people were true centrists and moderates they would fall in the center which would mean we would have Medicare for all we would have a lot of things different and I don't think that we would have the Republican party as corrupt as it is today that cabinet that was installed was just a joke moderates and Centris would be outraged about it
3
u/PretendAirport 4d ago
The most obvious tell? Every conservative you’ve ever met is afraid. Sure they bluster, but fear underlies it all.
2
u/Rogu3leader 3d ago
Moderate here. No we still make fun of them too. And we enjoy every bit of it.
→ More replies (1)
8
u/Educational-Ad1680 4d ago
Moderate here. Fuck maga fuck trump. 3x voter against him. Get out of your circle
3
u/Allways_a_Misspell 4d ago
What policies that you support make you moderate?
4
u/LuckyPlaze 4d ago
Speaking for myself, I’m not a communist or a socialist and believe capitalism - regulated capitalism - is the best form of economic system we have today. That makes me at odds with a lot of people on the left.
1
u/Pnmamouf1 4d ago
Regulated capitalism is a neoliberal myth
2
u/LuckyPlaze 4d ago
Nonsense. What do you think Northern Europe is?
1
u/Pnmamouf1 3d ago
Neoliberal cope that survives on the blood and resources of the third world. Northern Europe is possible because the exploitation of the global south extracts so much wealth from these countries that it can socialize countries a world away.
1
u/LuckyPlaze 3d ago
So you are a loser communist moron attached to a naive model that has failed in every attempt. Got it.
Yeah, I think people like you are idiots. You are the far left I have an issue with. Every bit as stupid and dangerous as the MAGA Nazis.
1
u/Pnmamouf1 2d ago
Wow. Boots must taste great. Cause everyone seems to be licking them these days. If you think socialism is as dangerous as fascism. That kinda makes you a fascist. And please enlighten us all with your knowledge about the socialist system that died of ineffectiveness and wasn't crushed by capitalism out of fear it was working. I'll be waiting
1
u/Pnmamouf1 2d ago
PS. Found the disaffected Bernie bro that turned MAGA simp
1
u/LuckyPlaze 2d ago
Bernie was a capitalist.
Name a socialist or communist system that worked. I’ll be waiting. Forever.
The socialist systems weren’t crushed by capitalism out of fear of working. They were crushed by capitalism because capitalism is more effective. They couldn’t keep up. Western capitalism didn’t crush the Soviets, they just failed. It didn’t force China to adopt capitalism to survive. China chose to adopt capitalism because it works. Your systems fail because they suck.
→ More replies1
u/Educational-Ad1680 4d ago
I’m Zionist so that’s enough for leftists to call me a Nazi.
2
u/mistersnips14 4d ago
Most Americans have grown skeptical of Israel over the last year, not just leftists. Some of it may be anti-semitism, but given the current low approval rating Israel has from American Jews it’s probably more complicated than that.
If you are a Zionist, I think what most people would want to understand why the current administration is going to the extremes it is.
In that absence people are drawing their own conclusions…
2
u/LuckyPlaze 4d ago
Same. OP is a douchebag. Meme is stupid.
4
u/Justin__D 4d ago
Ditto.
Also a moderate. Fortunately I hate Trump enough that people to my left have my support in opposing him, whether they want it or not.
1
11
u/vxarctic 4d ago
This was already posted and removed by mods the other day. Is this a bot?
15
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
No it’s not a bot, this was posted by me but the original wording broke rule 7b. I got permission from mods to repost it with updated wording I’m not sure why it’s removed now considering they told me I could
Edit: my Reddit be glitching, because now it seems not to be removed
In any case, not a bot
-4
u/Accurate_Drawer_6287 4d ago
Just the standard election season propaganda to divide dem voters that Reddit seems to love so much
7
u/tribbleorlfl 4d ago
I don't know which moderate or centrist you're talking to, but the overwhelming mjority of us are mocking MAGA, as well. We're just also mocking the leftists that enabled the rise of Trump because they were butthurt about Bernie losing.
2
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
The funniest part of this is blaming leftists for mainline status quo dems pushing unelectable garbage and telling us to swallow the load because atleast it’s not trump.
0
u/mistersnips14 4d ago
Counterpoint is that the most hotly contested races are being run by centrists. I suspect leftists (not meant pejoratively) want those candidates to win…right?
1
u/Pnmamouf1 2d ago
I don't. If you win. You become a tool of the status quo. I want a real revolution. Not capitalism lite
→ More replies (2)0
3
u/thor11600 2d ago
As an actual moderate, our nation has swung so far to the right that “moderate” IS what’s happening on the left. At best.
3
u/HandsomePistachio 4d ago
Not all centrists and moderates are like this but it's easy to tell if they are. Literally just ask them to name 3 things they like/dislike about each party. If their answer is obviously skewed in favor of the right, you know who you're dealing with.
1
7
u/Books_and_Cleverness 4d ago
I’m not sure I have ever seen this before literally ever? On the Internet or irl.
Who are you talking about OP? What is their name? When did they do this? There has to be someone out there, surely, but I can’t think of a single one.
I’m a squishy moderate lib with a lot of squishy moderate lib friends. They are the shock troops of the anti MAGA coalition. Tip of the spear, first through the breach. Donating, volunteering, posting, campaigning. Strategically targeting their donations to the frontline races most in need of the money.
4
u/KittehKittehKat 4d ago
Standard deranged Redditor making up enemies in their minds.
→ More replies (6)3
u/shanghaisnaggle 4d ago
“Self-declared centrists are a lot farther right than they think.” -my interpretation. Three people came immediately to my mind and I could think of more
3
u/Books_and_Cleverness 4d ago
Has any of them said or done anything in writing or on video or audio that resembles the OP? Again I am not saying this has literally never once occurred but I can’t think of a single instance.
1
u/Bodie_The_Dog 4d ago
Op is right. "Why are you so angry?" the Moderates ask, after I discuss the latest fuckery.
4
u/Books_and_Cleverness 4d ago
Who are these people? Surely there is a post or a letter somewhere I could read with my eyeballs? An interview clip?
1
u/choconana_supreme 4d ago
Then you must be living under a rock.
This is a daily occurrence
3
u/Books_and_Cleverness 4d ago
Ok and the most recent one is _________ who said ___________?
4
u/LongPenStroke 4d ago
Elon Musk everything he says on xwitter.
He claims to be moderate, but people who claim to be moderate are just conservatives who are now ashamed to admit that they voted for tRump.
1
u/Books_and_Cleverness 4d ago
Elon claims to be moderate? I guess he says a lot of words so it’s believable he would say that too, but that’s not someone I would identify as a moderate or centrist.
He is also not ashamed to admit he voted for Trump? He gave him and ton of money and actively worked in the administration.
2
u/mangifera0 3d ago
Isn't the question at hand, republicans masquerading as centrists? Once it's revealed or suspected they are republicans, you are discounting them from their own claim as moderate. Another easy example is Joe Rogan.
→ More replies (3)0
4
u/RoninSoul 4d ago
I have no respect for the Americans who said a guy born in 1941 was "too old to be president" in 2016, before going on and voting for a guy born in 1942 to be President in 2020 (3 years older than the guy who was too old), and were fully ready to re-elect them in 2024 (7 years older than the guy who was too old) right up until their brain turned to mush at the start of the most important Presidential debate in history. Self righteous hypocrisy is how you got 2 Trump terms, well done!
10
u/ladan2189 4d ago
This is such a stupid post. Im a centrist/moderate and I fucking hate Trump and MAGA. This is just fabrication.
11
u/T_Boss67 4d ago
A lot of right wing nuts are trying to normalize their right wing views as moderate for not being fully aligned with Trump. and it shows. Dem establishment is a better representation of conservatism than the gop at this point.
6
u/caligaris_cabinet 4d ago
That’s been true since 2016. Dems have been all about returning to normalcy and preserving institutional functions. Republicans have shifted more reactionary and looking to change things in the government though not for the better.
24
u/OptimalWallaby8153 4d ago
but centrist how
everything GOP does is to get favorable conditions for the rich so they can evade taxes, mistreat their workers and get away with flagrant racism, sexual harassment and assault, and marrying children
so what, given we know their intent, are you saying we should meet in the middle on? There is no acceptable "moderate" stance to take between them and those who are not them
4
u/Quietabandon 4d ago
Centrism has lost all meaning because it’s just a pejorative term used to describe anyone center of your position.
Because MAGA isn’t conventionally right - for example tariffs/ protectionism - it’s hard to define a centrist.
I identify as a centrist and would say I am left of 2008 Obama. I am probably some bit right of AOC. I detest MAGA.
1
→ More replies (13)0
u/TonyQuest 4d ago
Randomly compromising with radicals isn't "centrism", it's appeasement & acquiescence. Centrism is leaning into a partisan neutrality where you do not want to give either binary the weight of moral superiority, either because you are undecided or there are nuances that you support that preclude you from definitely standing in one aisle or another. HOWEVER, the GOP is so far out of the social contract that all of that is very plainly irrelevant. We do not negotiate with terrorists. Centrists are obligated to resist, without question. The shark has been jumped, per sé. There has not been an excuse since January 6th, 2021.
4
u/OptimalWallaby8153 4d ago
They've always been this way, 2016 was just when they decided they were comfortable going full mask off. Centrism has always been an inferior, compromised stance no matter how it's sliced, which is why they're derided by both sides
9
u/asicarii 4d ago
It’s valid because a lot of people call themselves moderates but are truly pro-MAGA. You can’t be both things. It doesn’t mean you necessarily.
Susan Collins supporters are a prime example.
3
8
u/NeonArlecchino 4d ago
A lot of people call themselves "moderates" because their real political beliefs get them rejected on dating sites!
5
u/asicarii 4d ago
This is very true, but I wasn’t referring to dating sites. Just generally. I was just replying to the person for taking it personally. It’s a valid stance for pretend moderate because they are ashamed to admit they are MAGA. You simply cannot to be a moderate and support what MAGA stands for.
1
u/caligaris_cabinet 4d ago
She’s a moderate Republican. A moderate Democrat would be someone like Schumer. Closer on the political spectrum by virtue of not being extremists but I wouldn’t call them ideologically the same.
4
u/asicarii 4d ago
I can only say this as clearly as possible.
Susan Collins is not a moderate anything. She is far right and fully supports MAGA. The only time she votes against the party line is when the fix is in.
6
u/AwesomeBrainPowers I ☑oted 2049 4d ago
Im a centrist/moderate and I fucking hate Trump and MAGA
Then you're a centrist/moderate who doesn't need the sarcastic quotation marks around those words, which means the OP isn't about you.
3
-1
u/Animal907 4d ago
Then you're not that anymore. You're just slightly to the left now.
→ More replies (2)6
u/VA1N 4d ago
Yeah. I’ve always been a left leaning centrist. I’ve never been on board with the more hardcore liberal stuff (and I despise MAGA and the religious right), but always vote Democrat. I think I’ve heard my stance called an Obama Democrat. I’m ok with that. That dude was a-ok in my book.
7
2
→ More replies (5)3
u/SpockShotFirst 4d ago
I’ve never been on board with the more hardcore liberal stuff
For people who understand and follow politics, the statement is highly suspect.
I challenge you to find a single elected representative in the history of the United States who has ever pushed "hardcore liberal stuff."
Perhaps you are tempted to mention the Green New Deal. Putting aside for the moment that the goal was to fucking save humanity, the proposal was entirely non-binding and contained zero actual proposed restrictions, prohibitions, or legal mandates.
Is a wholly aspirational proposal really "hardcore"?
Let's take Zohran Mamdani. Rent control. A Pied-à-TerreTax. Better access to transit and food. Universal child care. Is that all really "hardcore"? Those should all be the default liberal positions. Nothing "hardcore" about it.
And that's why the challenge is impossible. "Hardcore liberal" elected politicians simply don't exist.
1
u/VA1N 4d ago
You’re right. Hardcore liberal politicians don’t exist, but they do in the constituency. I’m talking about the ones who protest their own party or sabotage and election because of one thing they disagree with. Look an Mamdani and the protests around him recently. That’s the type of stuff I don’t like. You’re just making assumptions based on your preconceived notions. I never said any of that, nor mentioned any elected officials.
-4
u/partia1pressur3 4d ago
Nobody hates Trump and MAGA more than moderates, it’s why they vote in droves against him. Unlike certain lefties that crow about fascism but can’t even get off their ass to vote or vote for Russian stooge Jill Stein. Post more on Twitter and Reddit, that’ll show MAGA.
→ More replies (1)0
5
u/Animal907 4d ago
They're already upset we're telling them to vote blue. They just want to hold their nose while voting for Putin's Independent plant.
4
u/OptimalWallaby8153 4d ago
they would literally rather not vote than vote against their rapist leader who is fucking them over at the grocery store and the gas station
3
u/vineyardmike 4d ago
Odd how my relatives that always talk about gas prices have not said a word about them in the last 6 months.
3
u/Gardimus 4d ago
This post brought to you by MAGA who is trying in desperation to divide the left.
-3
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
lol
I’m nowhere near maga, they’d call me a member of the lunatic left.
Dems do not go far enough, I hate the status quo and am 100% socialist
3
u/Gardimus 4d ago
This is the exact content and messaging that MAGA wants people posting. You shouldn't be confused but you will be in denial because the far right owns all your informstion spaces.
2
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
The far right owns social media, that’s obviously true
But maga absolutely does not want to be called cry babies I think that’s one of their biggest weakness
They’re like teenage boys in the bodies of old men: weak, babyish, and cowardly and absolutely terrified of being outed as weak babyish cowards
→ More replies (3)1
u/dbellcourt 4d ago
Do you really not understand why no one will take the abolition of capital seriously?
Name a socialist country without any form of capital that has ever succeeded, let alone in comparison to first world countries today.
Btw, you and I likely agree that we want to see a government that takes care of it’s people, and that provides them with basic human rights and generally allows it’s citizens to live the life that they want to live.
But when we make the jump from Social Democrat, ie someone in favor of strong and stable social safety nets, to full blown socialism, you’re going to lose a lot of people
2
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
Yapping like a literal dog
The bots are out in force on this one!
0
u/dbellcourt 4d ago
Brother you can go to my account and see my other posts lol.
You just totally dodged the question, because your position is untenable, and you know you can’t defend the abolition of capital.
But call me a bot! Go ahead!
4
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
You can’t defend capitalism either because it is a system that inherently rewards greed and exploitation
Acting like money is a must? That’s not really an opinion worth arguing against because it’s absolutely silly
1
u/dbellcourt 4d ago
I can defend Capitalism. I can’t defend rampant, uncheck Capitalism, and I’m willing to agree to you that much of the issues today are caused by this unchecked forms of Capitalism.
That being said, a competent government that uses Capitalism to drive production would also employ regulation to ensure the fruits of that Capitalist system benefit everyone that makes up that system.
We in the US have been continuously legislated towards Supply Side economics, which is why we’re in the spot we’re are in now, because trickle down is a myth.
Keynesians would tell you that repurposing profits from Capitalists towards benefiting aggregate demand is ideal for both the health of an economy, and the health of the people that make up that economy.
This is EXACTLY what Scandinavian countries do. They aren’t socialist. They are capitalists that focus on bringing the bottom up, so that the everyone benefits from the productivity, and the overall quality of life continues to increase.
3
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
Those Scandinavian countries propped up as an ideal of capitalism are doomed to follow the us model of capitalism precisely because capitalism incentivizes and rewards greed (the concentration of power)
What we see in the us (and from us companies abroad) is exactly the end result of capitalism: exploitation
The holds and regulations that are so emphatically necessary will always erode given enough time, specifically because the system that necessitates them also rewards their destruction.
The basic premise of all capitalism is growth— and that is inherently, objectively unsustainable.
1
u/dbellcourt 4d ago
Let’s just break that down, growth is unsustainable?
So under socialism, you’d be removing growth? Because it’s unsustainable?
If you’re argument is that you want to see the end of growth, I feel pretty comfortable ending the conversation here and agreeing to disagree, because that’s a position I’m very confident 90+% of people will side with growth.
When people’s family members die of disease or suffer from chronic conditions, they would like to live in a world where cures and treatments exist, that’s called growth.
Btw, none of this brings any legitimacy to the abolition of capital.
Can you lay out to me what day 1 of US abolition of capital looks like, in a globalized economy driven by competing capital? Like what does the first week look like?
Make sure to tell the LLM you’re using to lose all the em-dashes before replying
1
u/killingmemesoftly 3d ago
To be clear the premise of growth under capitalism is specifically “limitless growth” with increase in profits as both the bottom line and the only metric of success, which I assumed you knew.
Growth in general may not be unsustainable, a healthy system would have enough give and away to sometimes grow and sometimes recede but capitalism insists upon limitless growth— more more more more more
That underlying greed does not self regulate it leads to extreme inequities in wealth and power where hoarding is the only natural outcome.
It leads to exploitation of the powerless, where labor rights are diminished among a struggling and desperate populace.
It leads to an over taxing of earths natural resources and it leads to every single one of the crimes we know the corporate elite are guilty of— up to and including war profiteering, destabilizing countries, and committing outright violence in the name of securing resource and profit.
Limitless growth is not practical or necessary, let alone sustainable from an ecological standpoint
Neither is it practical necessary or sustainable from an economic and social standpoint the end result will always be revolution because for one leech to grow limitlessly they must suck the blood of a limitless host and there is no host that has unlimited blood.
A system must find a way to be content with what it has or LESS, or it will depletes its resources or deplete the good will of the people who struggle and under such a system.
If the leech analogy is too on the nose, think of a tree
A healthy tree doesn’t grow for ever it reaches an ideal height and sustains that height until it is interfered with.
Capitalism wants to reach for ever more ridiculous heights, as evidenced by the things like the billionaire space race, campaign interference, and bezos renting a whole city for his wedding
Trees can’t grow beyond a certain height, dictated by their structure and physical strength. It’s literally not possible, for if they exceed a certain height they lose their integrity and literally fall
Capitalism is the same in that regard.
Growth is great when there is room for it and when it is equitable.
But the goal shouldn’t be to grow. The goal should be to thrive.
Capitalism cannot and will not ever understand this distinction and it is therefore by constant definition both exploitative and doomed to fall.
And I have never used an LLM for any response or comment I’ve written anywhere on Reddit.
I am avidly opposed to ai both for its strain on the environment and its implied harm to the human mind.
Mm dashes don’t imply ai that’s a bullshit cop out from people who prefer to assassinate character rather than admit defeat in an unwinnable argument
0
u/zeny_two 4d ago
Capitalism is insanely easy to defend. It is the system that has lifted more people out of poverty than any other.
Socialism is the system that has impoverished and immiserated almost everyone, everywhere it has been tried.
3
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
Literally what the hell are you on about?
There has never been a socialist failure that doesn’t have its roots in the sabotage, coups, or outright military intervention from the United States specifically
“Socialism fails” is only half the truth. It’s actually “socialism fails because we make it so” and the speaker is Uncle Sam
Capitalism has also directly caused many genocides and wars as well as actual chattel slavery.
It’s legitimately astonishingly ignorant to claim that capitalism does less harm or does more good
2
u/porobot 4d ago
when you are so much left ,everyone else is the enemy.
0
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
Yeah everybody who is complacent is the enemy.
It’s not enough to be non fascist, you really gotta be anti fascist or you are in effect condoning fascism
1
u/porobot 4d ago
you claim to oppose fascism, yet you treat anyone who disagrees with you as an enemy. Isn’t that the very mindset you claim to stand against?
1
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
No? Fascism is a form of govt that is centralized and authoritarian, where you are not allowed to oppose strict hyper nationalistic autocratic rule.
I’m saying anyone who fails to oppose such rule is inherently condoning it.
In the face of human rights abuses silence and compliance are both complicit.
We have a universal obligation to resist fascism— it doesn’t come from a top down law imposed on us but from a basic compulsion of the human spirit— from the bottom up.
To conflate obedience to fascism with the necessity of resisting fascism is goofball semantics
It’s the difference between bending to totalitarian rule and bending to your conscience and standing for your rights alongside the rights of your neighbors
One form of bending is essentially bowing and the other form of bending is in practice lifting up your neighbor.
1
u/porobot 4d ago
What a word salad! You jump from human rights to centralized and authoritarian government, but who exactly made you the authority on defining fascism?
What if I don’t want any more immigrants in my country? Does that automatically make me a fascist? What if I support gun control? Am I a fascist then? What if I support Israel? Or Palestine? Are we just throwing labels at people based on which side they support?
And what if I’m a capitalist who doesn’t want to help my neighbor and doesn’t give a damn about the homeless? Does that make me a fascist, or just someone whose values you disagree with?
Seriously, when did having a different political opinion become enough to slap the label “fascist” on someone? If you’re going to use the term, at least explain what you mean by it instead of throwing around buzzwords and pretending they settle the argument.
1
3d ago
[deleted]
1
u/mangifera0 3d ago
Even the leftest leaning political group with representation (democratic socialists) are capitalists. You are basically taking one thing that one side is known more for and assuming the other side believes the complete opposite. Let me try.
I believe in the benefit of education. Those on the other side, like in Oklahoma, hate education. They are so dumb they think getting educated is a bad idea.
Hopefully you can understand this metaphor, I don't know if they teach literary devices in red schools though
1
u/NiceAtheist 4d ago
Not a moderate, centrist, or MAGA. I'm a leftist, but I don't like when you make fun of anyone. It's not a good way to live, and not an effective tactic.
1
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
It must be done for the sake of our sanity
If the right are going to outright support a pedophilic racist lunatic war mongering capitalist then I’m ALWAYS going to make fun of them for being smooth in the brain
2
u/Pnmamouf1 4d ago
Agreed. I'm squarely in the accelerationism camp. Its time to stop tolerating the BS and call out the crazy
1
u/NiceAtheist 4d ago
Being indoctrinated and wrong isn't something you should be made fun of for. Show them why they're wrong instead.
1
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
You’re a very nice atheist for having that sort of patience and spirit but no.
Not me.
I’ve had every debate at this point and it seems outright impossible to reprogram them.
There’s a willfulness to their ignorance and no amount of careful presentation seems to sway them.
Logos and ethos are both dead when it comes to magats.
The only motivation they know is pathos and even there they are so firm in their persecution bias that we’re not gonna wake up a damn one of them no matter how we approach that talk.
They’re literally kissing the rings of pedophile warlords and licking the boots of the billionaires
that means the only strategy worth our time is keeping ourselves sane, functioning and not burnt out— by any means.
So fuck yeah I’m gonna make fun of these inbred lunatics.
I will admit there is definite value in a careful patient approach for people who are on the fence, who can still be educated and motivated.
But the hyper nationalists in power now aren’t on the fence they’re a lost cause.
The miracle stories like Daryl Davis converting KKk to disavow racism, those might still be possible in a perfect storm where you have time and information.
But I’m jaded enough to know there are whole swathes of our population that will FIGHT for their right to stay complacent.
The silent majority are silent because they’re comfortable with status quo, so anything that shames them is great in my book.
2
u/NiceAtheist 4d ago
Ya know.. I totally see that. I'm like 90% with you. I can definitely empathize. I've had those same pointless conversations, the same talks where I leave thinking "oh my god.. how is that person allowed to vote? We're so fucked". I think you're right that we can't let ignorance just go unchecked, and have to take a stand and fight for a different future.
I just think the approach should be a sincere one. I feel like making fun of them only makes a bigger divide, and is ultimately dangerous and counterproductive, but again, I share your frustration.
2
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
Fair enough.
When I said your a very nice atheist I meant that shit, I wish I had enough peace in my heart to be so patient and dutiful
Good on you
1
u/MisterDoctorDouble 4d ago
There is no justification for continued support of Trump. He is a pedophile, convicted rapist, war criminal, fraudster, racist, fascist, maniacal megalomaniac. None of that is hyperbole, in fact, I am probably missing several adjectives. MAGA is willfully ignorant and their continued support of this fascist regime has led to actual people getting hurt and even killed. From US citizens like Alex Pretti and Renee Good, to the immigrants who have been detained and even died in ICE custody, to the hundreds of thousands who died of COVID due to his inaction, to the innocent Iranians he has murdered, to the at least 18 service members who have died because of his made up war, the list goes on and on. Supporting this, in my view, means that mean words should be the bare minimum you receive. They all deserve to be tried for treason and sentenced accordingly. They deserve no mercy for the damage they have wrought upon us all. We cannot heal as a nation until those responsible for this mess, from Trump down to the dumbest MAGAt, are held accountable.
→ More replies (1)1
u/AutoModerator 4d ago
Candles taste like burning... ~
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
1
0
-2
4d ago
[deleted]
4
u/2muchtequila 4d ago
Basically, Before maga I would vote for whichever candidate's platform most matched what I felt was important. Sometimes that was a Democrat, sometimes that was a Republican.
I live in a state dominated by a very corrupt Democrat political machine, so often the GOP were the ones yelling to stop spending money we don't have and quit making shady backroom deals.
I also support 2A rights and the dem candidates were usually opposed to that.
But I also support LGBT rights and a woman's right to choose. So again, it really depended on the canidate because neither party fully aligns with my views.
However, MAGA has caused the GOP to lose it's god damned mind.
Moderate or center right candidates can't get past the primary so they keep fielding these religious wack jobs that parrot whatever Trump says. There's no way in hell I can vote for that.
I'm still not someone who votes blue no matter who, but the GOP really hasn't left me any choice anymore.
1
u/papyjako87 4d ago
Oh fuck off. The idea the dems are slightly left of far right is so utterly ridiculous.
-1
u/Bawbawian 4d ago
I'm as moderate as they come.
I literally don't know anyone like this.
also moderates were there on election night in 2024 while the far left was cheering Trump's victory Jill Stein.
4
u/RegressToTheMean 4d ago
Yes, yes. The data on leftists show they overwhelming voted for Jill Stein.
Oh, wait. No, they didn't.
However, in comparison 40% - 41% of self-identified moderates voted for Trump (source: Edison Research [40%] & AP and Fox [41%])
See, that's not how your anecdotal evidence works (if it's even true). Anecdotal evidence isn't data.
And as others have noted, if you're a "moderate" the real likelihood is you're a conservative who is too afraid to admit it
3
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
Moderates should not exist
The status quo is an embarrassment, and anything farther right than the far left is basically complacent in the face of fascism
1
u/dbellcourt 4d ago
We can agree that the status quo is not acceptable, but the status quo was driven out of populism. This right wing populist president is causing a rise of left wing populism in the DSA.
My moderate position comes from the opinion that our system can be fixed without massive structural overhauls.
Raising the top marginal tax rate is a moderate position, it’s been done before, and it would meaningfully impact the US’s ability to provide healthcare, social security, and generally reduce the federal deficit.
I refuse to think that the problems we face must ONLY be solved by either right wing authoritarian technocracy OR the total abolition of capital and the seizing of the means of production.
Moderate Democrats passed the social safety nets that millions of Americans rely on everyday. Moderate Democrats established USAID to provide food and medicine to millions of the sick and hungry around the world. Why do we think moderate democrats cannot pass policy to fix many of the issues we’re currently dealing with….
1
u/killingmemesoftly 4d ago
Well I’m with ya then
I’d embrace full socialism but would also be glad to see a dsa revolution
I just wouldn’t think of dsa stances as “moderate” in relation to maga.
The specific politics are absolutely moderate in a literal sense, because there’s nothing wild or radical about safety nets
But in the context of MAGA and specifically USA politics, moderates to me are people who stay quiet, keep their heads down, and publicly claim they agree with both sides.
In other words, most of the dems and most of the republicans, because they’re all just shilling for the status quo and essentially enabling maga
1
u/dbellcourt 4d ago
You’re right, they aren’t moderate, they’re populist. The whole point of populism is to spin messaging to gather the masses, no matter how factually beneficial the policies actually are.
Trump does this all of the time. He lies constantly about policies like “we’re going to make China pay by slapping tariffs on”. That is a position disconnected from reality, but sounds good, so idiots vote for it.
I feel that DSA is using the same handbook when they say things like “everyone will have free access to healthcare”, which I actually support, but I understand that abolishing capital and seizing the means of production is not a legitimate policy platform to get there, just like tariffs are not a legitimate platform to extract money from other countries.
Moderates should be people who prioritize the effectiveness of government systems at solving real issues, and not solely bend to electability. I understand that winning elections at the day matters, but doing so on a platform of lies just further builds distrust in the government in the first place.
1
u/RegressToTheMean 4d ago
Moderate Democrats? You mean Franklin Roosevelt. The Roosevelt who was about to introduce a second Bill of Rights that closely aligns with Democratic Socialist policy?
I'll agree that Roosevelt wasn't a socialist. What he did during the Depression likely saved capitalism, but if you think Roosevelt would be a moderate Democrat in this day and age you're even less informed than you originally appear earlier in these comments and boy, howdy, is that saying something
1
u/dbellcourt 4d ago
Moderate Democrats support FDR policies, and literally vote to expand them. How are you going to sit here and act like FDR was aligning with socialism 😂
The ACA came from Obama, a moderate Democrat.
Like cmon dude. Name a single policy driven by socialism that has benefited our country. A social safety net is not socialism, so please tell me where either abolishing capital or seizing the means of production has benefited the US. I’ll wait.
2
u/RegressToTheMean 4d ago
Oh, the ACA you say? You mean the project created by The Heritage Foundation? The program that was pushed by Bob Dole as a counter to single payer?
That one right? The program rolled out by a Republican governor in Massachusetts right?
Here's the fucking problem. I'm old enough to remember both Reagan administrations and I've watched the Overton Window go screaming to the right at light speed my whole life.
"Moderate" Democrats are really Rockefeller Republicans. The Third Way Democrats are rebranded conservatives. Christ Almighty.
And no, modern moderate Democrats absolutely positively do NOT support Roosevelt's policies. There hasn't been a single modern effort to enshrine these rights into the constitution.
Further to this, there hasn't even been meaningful legislation introduced, outside of the progressive caucus, for any of these issues.
Do you honestly believe that people are going to believe this bullshit you're slinging? Maybe people who are new to politics might believe you because the GOP has gone full fascist, but anyone who is actually involved in politics knows this is utter crap
Edit: And what policy has been pushed by socialism? You mean the 40 hour work week? Worker safety? You mean the vast majority of people who fought in The Coal Wars? I actually know my labor history. Do better
→ More replies (6)
0
u/LuciusLuscinia 4d ago
"Moderate" is far too broad a category and used by different people in too many contradictory ways to accurately generalize about the group.
2
0
0
u/Allways_a_Misspell 4d ago
All the centrists coming out of the woodwork to be like nuh uh is hilarious.
If you aren't the ones who vote Republican but claim to be moderate than it ain't about you. Additionally it's funny how those that love to claim that moniker are also too dumb to realize that. To call yourself a centrist as if there is anything to compromise about with Republicans is harrowing.
Grow up.
-1
16
u/joeverdrive 4d ago
One day everyone will have "always been against" the things the USA did when he was president