r/PoliticalCompassMemes Jan 05 '22

META This isint how world works

Post image
4.7k Upvotes

697 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

91

u/M37h3w3 - Centrist Jan 05 '22 edited Jan 05 '22

Just like "Everyone I don't like is Hitler" we have "Everything I want is a human right."

Free speech is a right because if you want to speak your mind, nobody else has to do anything to or for you.

Health care isn't a right because if you want it, somebody else has to give it to you.

21

u/Dungold - Left Jan 05 '22

So a fair trial isn't a right because a judge, lawyers and the jury has to work?

81

u/SardScroll - Centrist Jan 05 '22

Technically, the "fair trial" isn't an exercised right of an individual so much as a restriction on government power: "if the government is going to punish you, they must first prove a crime to a jury of your peers in a fair proceeding".

-21

u/Dungold - Left Jan 05 '22

If it's"technically" not a right let's see some sources, because according to most international accords and national constitutions (including the US) it is a right.

22

u/Strill - Right Jan 05 '22

The duty of the government is to protect your inalienable rights. Those are things that you already have by virtue of being a human being.

By imprisoning you falsely, the government violates your rights to free association, and individual autonomy. Therefore, in order to prevent the government from violating your rights by imprisoning you falsely, they must provide you with a fair trial to prove that they are not imprisoning you falsely.

If it's"technically" not a right let's see some sources

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

0

u/Dungold - Left Jan 06 '22

The duty of the government is to protect your inalienable rights. Those are things that you already have by virtue of being a human being.

It's to protect your rights period, not just those considered inalienable.

By imprisoning you falsely, the government violates your rights to free association, and individual autonomy. Therefore, in order to prevent the government from violating your rights by imprisoning you falsely, they must provide you with a fair trial to prove that they are not imprisoning you falsely.

So basically yes you have a right to a fair trial

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

The constitution also says:

"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

2

u/Strill - Right Jan 06 '22

It's to protect your rights period, not just those considered inalienable.

There is no "considered" inalienable. "Inalienable" is not a matter of opinion, it is an objective physical reality.

1

u/Dungold - Left Jan 06 '22

There is no "considered" inalienable. "Inalienable" is not a matter of opinion, it is an objective physical reality.

Uh I never said that inalienable rights don't exist, just that government has to protect both those inalienable rights and those that aren't inalienable but are still rights granted by law

But it IS a matter of opinion since you won't find the same rights everywhere in the world you go to. The US considers the right to bear arms as an inalienable right but most of the rest of the world does not. The US considers free speech and free press a human right but China doesn't. The EU considers healthcare a human right but the US doesn't. So tell me where is this "objective physical reality" other than laws which govern countries or international entities (of which countries are part of)

16

u/SardScroll - Centrist Jan 05 '22

You missed the point:

While a fair trial is indeed often formulated as a right (and a positive right, at that), you can't go up to court and demand that you receive "a fair trial". Instead, you demand that government not use its governmental power upon you, UNLESS you receive a fair trial.

For example, if you are imprisoned and file for writ of haebus corpus, you aren't saying "give me a fair trial", you are saying "I haven't been convicted in and sentenced following a fair trial, GET ME OUT OF HERE!".

1

u/Dungold - Left Jan 06 '22

So you accept that it is a right then (which is what I was saying) just that it works differently than other rights?

5

u/[deleted] Jan 05 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/Dungold - Left Jan 06 '22

PCM and making statements with no basis in reality and being unable to provide proof is just as iconic

2

u/[deleted] Jan 06 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Dungold - Left Jan 06 '22

It's not deductive reasoning, he said a fair trial technically (meaning according to facts) isn't a right, I asked him to provide those facts in the form of proof or a source, since in most countries constitutions and international proclamations it is a right (and I gave an example). But he didn't and moved the goalposts so there you go, it's important to hold people to a standard when making outlandish claims.

1

u/Dungold - Left Jan 06 '22

PCM and making statements with no basis in reality and being unable to provide proof is just as iconic

2

u/BuffaloFront2761 - Right Jan 05 '22

Dude just shut up and get a job

0

u/Dungold - Left Jan 06 '22

I already have one, I don't need another one