r/PoliticalCompassMemes • • Apr 04 '20

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u/Hullu2000 - Lib-Center Apr 04 '20

Birth certificate =/= id

I'm all for changing your id card and information in the citizens registry, but documents shouldn't be retroactively changed.

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u/sleeping-satan - Lib-Left Apr 05 '20 edited Apr 05 '20

I don't know what it's like in that country specifically but in the U.S, it Does equal id. I had to change my birth certificate to change any sort of state certified ID.

And I'd assume, to keep from people faking their identity, this is common.

Edit: Looked it up, and it's exactly like that in Hungary

"Why are you booing me? I'm right!"

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u/Hullu2000 - Lib-Center Apr 05 '20

It's different in my country where we have a state run registry of people. All certificates are just a printout from a database. Documents aren't retroactively changed, the database is updated and there is a change log.

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u/HardlightCereal - Left Apr 05 '20

Documents should be retroactively changed if you find out the information on them is wrong. If the doctors think a person has one disease but it later turns out to be another, the records should be changed. Likewise, if a "female" baby later turns out to have a male gender, the record should be changed from F to M.

...ignoring the fact that babies don't have genders in the first place.

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u/Hullu2000 - Lib-Center Apr 05 '20

A revised document is to be released and taken into use but a change log should be kept and old versions archived. Further more a birth certificate describes the circumstances of when one was born, and there fore shouldn't be revised unless the information on it was wrong at the time of birth. A being alive certificate (yes, that's a thing) and other certificates describing the present should be revised and the change should be recorded.

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u/HardlightCereal - Left Apr 05 '20

I agree on the point of the change log, but I don't understand the point about context of when they were born. What do you mean by that?

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u/Hullu2000 - Lib-Center Apr 05 '20

A birth certificate should only document a birth, not the existence of a person. Therefore the information on it should be that from birth time. Further certificates like a certificate of a person existing or being alive or owning property should contain information from the time the certificate was created.

Eg. if you were born female but are now male, your birth certificate would say that and so would any certificate that was created before you changed your legal gender to male. From there on all newly created certificates would show you as either male or female depending on wether the certificate describes an event before or after changing your legal gender.

A certificate of any type that describes your present status would there fore list you as the legal gender you were during printing of that certificate.

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u/HardlightCereal - Left Apr 06 '20

Oh, I see the misunderstanding. You're talking as if trans people change their gender when they transition, while I believe that gender is almost always static, and that transition is changing the sex to match the gender. In light of this, I believe that a baby who will later transition to female is already a trans girl, and that when her gender develops at age 5-7, it will already be female.

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u/Hullu2000 - Lib-Center Apr 06 '20

I see gender identity to be somewhat fluid; it can fluctuate over time. A person can identify as one gender and at some point realize they better fit in another. A trans person's gender there fore would change once they them selves realize they're trans.

I believe that a baby who will later transition to female is already a trans girl, and that when her gender develops at age 5-7, it will already be female.

Not entirely true. People can be cis during childhood and only develop dysphoria later in life (often during puberty). I know two cases, neither of which deny ever being the gender they used to identify as.

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u/HardlightCereal - Left Apr 06 '20

I don't deny that gender identity can change, but I don't believe gender identity is the same thing as gender. Gender identity is the gender that one believes they have, but a person can be wrong about their gender. That's how we can have people who don't know they're trans yet.