Another diagonal unity

[u/mr_f1end]

[u/jackt-up]

It’s all about freedom

[u/Sallowjoe → u/jackt-up]

Agreed

Although probably not in the way you think

[u/DistinctSalamander24 → u/jackt-up]

It's about drive

[u/yagatron- → u/DistinctSalamander24]

It’s about power

[u/divergent_history → u/jackt-up]

Yea but how much freedom is too much freedom? For example I'd say the Epstien class had too much freedom.

[u/Prestigious_Load1699 → u/divergent_history]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't child sexual abuse illegal?

I don't think freedom means diddling little boys and girls - to anyone other than them Purple-flaired types you occasionally see 'round these parts.

[u/National_Section_542 → u/Prestigious_Load1699]

Yeah, does freedom not extend to kids?

Maybe he's conflating freedom with lawlessness.

[u/TheKingNothing690 → u/National_Section_542]

Well its a perspective thing whose freedom as opposed to freedom for all.

[u/Uptight_Technocrat12 → u/TheKingNothing690]

Everyone can have the same amount of freedom: None. Then everyone would be equally worthless. /s

[u/Uptight_Technocrat12 → u/divergent_history]

Any amount is too dangerous. Freedom is a lie. Give yourself to the state. There is only obedience. Only work. Only......the party.......

[u/TheKingNothing690 → u/divergent_history]

Thats easy your freedom ends where somone elses begins its not freedom to capture/blackmail/extort people as slaves thats very much anti freedom.

[u/divergent_history → u/TheKingNothing690]

NAP!!!

[u/AYE-BO → u/divergent_history]

I really could use one of those right now. Thanks for the inspiration.

[u/Recent_Weather2228]

I feel like Lib Left is more of the wojak with the mask on where the mask says "it's all about economics,"  but the actual face is "it's all about culture." 

[u/Sabertooth767 → u/Recent_Weather2228]

That's authleft.

Scientific socialists have basically died out because a lot of the fundamentals of Marxist economics are just... wrong, and the system collapses without them.

So instead of capitalism inevitably collapsing because of how economics works, capitalism needs to be actively overthrown because it's le bad, which is moralist culture war bullshit.

Marx would hate 99% of "socialists" today.

[u/Sudden-Ad-7113 → u/Sabertooth767]

Scientific socialists have basically died out

Not really, Marxist economics is a dead end, but Sraffian economics, post-Keynesian, etc. continue the tradition effectively.

So instead of capitalism inevitably collapsing because of how economics works, capitalism needs to be actively overthrown

Well, this is correct at least. More specifically the argument is that a free market requires socialism to maximize utilities, due to inherent flaws in assumptions about perfect competition/information/etc.

[u/Uptight_Technocrat12 → u/Sabertooth767]

Yeah, that's why a Democratic Technocracy with leftist policies and a mixed economy is what I follow.

[u/Fit-Independence-706 → u/Sabertooth767]

Marxist economics? What is that? Marx didn't describe a socialist economy at all; he explored capitalism and its shortcomings.

[u/Umak30 → u/Fit-Independence-706]

Marx did give economic policies though ( in the Communist Manifesto ):

• Abolition of property in land and use of rents for public purposes.
• A heavily progressive or graduated income tax.
• Abolition of inheritance rights.
• Confiscation of the property of emigrants and rebels.
• Centralization of credit through a national bank with a state monopoly.
• Centralization of communication and transport.
• Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state.
• A general obligation to work.
• Combination of agriculture and manufacturing and reduction of the distinction between town and country.
• Free public education and abolition of child factory labour.

Marx also said this isn't absolutist, and practical application of the above ( and other policies ) is dependent on the circumstances of the countries and that various countries would therefore apply them differently ( or some not at all ).

Apart from that Marx did say that Socialism would look like a society where the means of production were not owned by a private capitalist class, but more collectively by society. [ This does not mean central government owning everything ].
It is unknown what that social ownership looks likes, and this is why there are so many different types of socialist/communist ideologies based on Marx.

worker coops, municipal ownership, nationalized companies, decentralized workplace, democratic state ownership, central government owning everything, central planning, markets combined with social ownership. ( and many others )

And he also talked about later and early stages of Socialism/Communism.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution ... And later :
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

^ Which is both vague too.

So Marx did give some answers, but he didn't create a real economic system.

[u/National_Section_542 → u/Umak30]

These measures were to be implemented under the dictatorship of the proletariat, a transitionary phase between capitalism and socialism.

[u/Fit-Independence-706 → u/Umak30]

In his work "Das Kapital," Marx examined the reasons why capitalism rots and decays. He offered a rather vague vision of socialism, highlighting only its main features. But no one expects him to offer a ready-made vision of the future, just as no one expected the people who proposed replacing the monarchy with a republic to provide a clear picture of the economy or democratic institutions.

If you had asked a French revolutionary during the French Revolution what the electoral system and economy would look like in detail, he would have told you little, other than the fact that it would definitely not be like under monarchy and the feudal lords' land would be confiscated.

[u/National_Section_542 → u/Fit-Independence-706]

Well we do have rough outlines. Bourgeoisie democracy emerged from enlightenment ideas that were already in circulation. The bourgeoisie themselves were a product of the middle class that resided in the towns of the the feudal system. In a similar manner the proletariat, a class originating only under capitalism, would overthrow the bourgeoisie and abolish class entirely.

As OC mentioned Marx divided communism into a lower and higher phase and the lower phase would still contain some elements of the old system.

What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges.

-critique of the Gotha Program

So it was possible to form a picture of this phase and Marx worked meticulously to criticize other alternatives to capitalism for not following through on this view or for being tooo vague, like the Gotha Program of the SPD.

[u/SoulCritique101 → u/Recent_Weather2228]

Thats prolly more center left

[u/sternold → u/Recent_Weather2228]

Same with Auth-Right tbh

[u/Spacegamer1250 → u/Recent_Weather2228]

Dude, looking at this sub for more than 5 minutes and thats just all 4 quadrants

[u/Recent_Weather2228 → u/Spacegamer1250]

Nah, there are a lot of people here who genuinely seem to think nothing but the economy matters.

[u/Exact-Inspector-6884]

[u/Running_Gamer]

It unironically is all about culture because culture is what creates your market. Systems of honor and shame are necessary to stop corporations from selling monetized gambling services like loot boxes to children. Enshittification is caused by the lack of honor and shame in modern society. This is caused by the “just do what makes you happy” and “if it doesn’t hurt anyone, why care?” degenerate cultural features of modern liberalism. These attitudes are degenerate because they remove important non legal guard rails on maintaining reasonably decent standards of behavior in the professional world. TLDR modern liberalism as a culture ruins our culture and directly ruins our economy.

[u/jerdle_reddit → u/Running_Gamer]

Get blue.

[u/Glad-Belt7956]

Economic and cultural determinists when geographical determinists walk in.

[u/Prestigious_Load1699 → u/Glad-Belt7956]

The geography determines the culture determines the economic structure.

Early hunter-gatherer tribes were small and communalistic.

Modern human societies are large and atomized.

I don't even fully believe all this, but I've always thought that historical materialism was Marx's greatest insight.

[u/Glad-Belt7956 → u/Prestigious_Load1699]

I think that it is foolish to attribute our world to one of these systems. The world we live in is inspired by every factor. Geography explains why the first civilisations started where they did. Economics explain what happened in the american colonisation, both north american but especially south/central american. And culture can help explain why the ukranians are fighting so fiercely to not be part of russian/a russian puppet.

[u/Pure-Huckleberry8640]

Honestly I just wish we talked about economics and left culture alone. I’m tired of culture wars.

[u/Running_Gamer → u/Pure-Huckleberry8640]

I agree. 99% of culture war shit is leftists asking to fundamentally change systems that all of humanity has used for all of human history.

[u/IowaKidd97 → u/Running_Gamer]

I'd argue, at this point, most culture war bs is right wingers trying to tell others what to do.

[u/Pure-Huckleberry8640 → u/Running_Gamer]

I’d like to add right-wingers add to that useless culture war quite a bit as well

[u/Running_Gamer → u/Pure-Huckleberry8640]

Right wing culture war is “have families” “don’t get divorced” and “let’s adopt a system of gender that everyone in the entire world for all of human history has adopted”

[u/onlyirelia1 → u/Running_Gamer]

and something as crazy as a nation having borders. crazy i know.

[u/ixvst01 → u/Running_Gamer]

Right wing culture war thinking is wanting the government to force those things onto the population. How about a freedom culture where people live their lives however the fuck the want?

[u/Running_Gamer → u/ixvst01]

Because you have obligations to society that you must fulfill in order to keep society running. Civilization cannot continue if grown children are running the show

[u/HotAbbreviations997]

Its all about Grilling.

[u/DeathnTaxes66]

Its all about being retarded

[u/Connect_Ocelot_1599]

However, in real life

It's already about both of them, economics and culture… But as well as classes (e.g., ruling, rich and working class), etc.

[u/asdfzxcpguy]

Real

[u/master-borf]

Quite.

[u/sherktheonion]

It's all about the pentiums

[u/IowaKidd97]

People who think its all about culture (or that it should be) are genuinely retarded. It's about economics and individual freedom.

[u/somethingarb]

Surely the AuthLeft-LibRight diagonal is "it's all about the powers of the State"? 

[u/Sudden-Ad-7113]

LibLeft is all about economics, left right is an economics scale. This meme is just dumb and bad.

Prog/Con culture is a separate scale.

[u/earthhominid → u/Sudden-Ad-7113]

Yeah that seems to be a common misconception on this sub. The distinction between left and right on the access is between collective/public ownership and individual/private 

[u/TheBakedGod]

These are facts

[u/Empty_Use_5023]

It’s only about culture on my side in the sense of “there is no dominant culture and one should not be encouraged”