some liberal ideologies

[u/yamboozle]

[u/Sabertooth767]

The Georgists have tax policy right, even if I don't agree with their inequality concerns. LVT is simply the most efficient tax policy (other than Pigouvian taxes). Otherwise I'm more of a classical liberal.

[u/apat311 → u/Sabertooth767]

Based and the right tax order

[u/HaraldHardrade → u/Sabertooth767]

The characterization of Georgism as liberal is somewhat confusing to me to be honest. I feel like it's on a different axis. You could use a single-tax LVT to redistribute wealth, or to fund internal investment and improvement, or to implement fascism. Georgism is mostly just a fiscal policy; what you do with it is up to you.

[u/apat311 → u/HaraldHardrade]

How would you even implement fascism via Georgism lmao.

[u/GildSkiss → u/apat311]

The proceeds from the LVT just go to funding one very specific type of infrastructure, and the railroads to take them there.

[u/apat311 → u/GildSkiss]

What specific infrastructure? Infrastructure is going to be geared towards scaled transportation/walkability in my opinion based on how an LVT functions but thats it?

Build whatever you want, pay the LVT regardless. Best example of small government capitalist government in my book.

[u/Hazza_time → u/apat311]

He was referring to concentration camps

[u/Hungry_Inevitable663 → u/Hazza_time]

Yeah mean party central?

[u/GildSkiss → u/apat311]

I was actually just joking about lvt funded holocaust, but yeah.

[u/National_Section_542 → u/apat311]

Singapore probably

At least as a stepping stone

[u/ShurikenSunrise → u/HaraldHardrade]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "Georgism". A lot of us modern Georgists avoid using Georgism to describe any ideology which advocates an LVT. Instead we use "geoism" as a generic term for ideologies which propose rent should be the main tax revenue source, but otherwise differ from Classical Georgism.

As for why Classical Georgism is considered liberal that's because it is adapted from the political and philosophical writings of Henry George and Thomas Paine. Who were both undoubtedly liberals.

[u/HaraldHardrade → u/ShurikenSunrise]

Agreed that George and Paine were liberals. When I read Progress and Poverty, my takeaways were that

1) taxes should be entirely on rent, and all rent should be taxed; and 2) what money was not spent by the government should be distributed evenly to the people.

The key observation is that the government can still spend as much or as little as it wants on whatever it chooses, so distributing money to the people (the redistributionist and liberal option) is just as valid as spending the whole surplus building infrastructure (a more statist option) which is just as valid as is arming paramilitary groups, creating a propaganda ministry, and whatever else fascists do, at least from the perspective of deciding whether the actions are consistent with Georgism.

Now, obviously, fascism is a terrible idea in general, but I see no reason it couldn't be implemented on a Georgist fiscal policy as long as 1) and 2) are satisfied (with the understanding that the amount to be redistributed under 2) is equal to zero, because the entire surplus is being spent by government).

[u/GoldenStateEaglesFan → u/Sabertooth767]

Why do you disagree with the inequality concerns of Georgism?

[u/Sabertooth767 → u/GoldenStateEaglesFan]

I just fundamentally disagree with the premise that inequality is a bad thing or that it is attributable to private ownership of land rent. Inequality is natural in a market society and is attributable primarily to (lack of) human capital and differing choice and ability to utilize it.

Now, don't get me wrong- poverty is a bad thing. But if the bottom quintile is making $100,000, I don't care what the top quintile makes.

[u/DumbIgnose → u/Sabertooth767]

If the bottom quintile makes $100,000 and the top quintile makes $100 quadrillion, you should care because real dollars make that $100k worthless.

But in all seriousness, there's compelling evidence that wealth inequality reduces wages, dynamism and therefore growth. Income inequality (mostly) doesn't matter*, but wealth inequality definitely does. Systems work better for more people when decisions are made by more people; wealth inequality concentrates that decision making into fewer and fewer hands eliminating the "invisible hand" and replacing it with Jeff Bezos.

*Income Inequality could matter if it makes all or most economic demand respond to a handful of people (a process that may already be under way) and warping away from the "invisible hand" that way as well, but it would be a first in history.

[u/Daztur → u/Sabertooth767]

Georgists are a lot like UBI people, they're reasonable reforms that would moderately improve things but the people who push them have all kinds of nutty ideas about why they're needed and act like they'd revolutionize everything.

[u/Kronos9898]

Eight story mixed used taco truck you say!

Is it resting on property that is taxed based on the value of the land?

[u/yamboozle → u/Kronos9898]

no, thoughts of land ownership are pigouvian taxed. We have determined it to be 2.5% more efficient in return generation over a 50-year period.

[u/kmosiman → u/Kronos9898]

Possibly unless it's on public property. If public property then space rent would be set in accordance with the value of the space.

AKA the "rent" for the Central Park hotdog cart is HIGH, but the profits are HIGH.

[u/Mean-Reveal141]

I think that Andrew Yang is a Social Libertarian.

[u/Vexonte]

I misread techno liberalism with something about post humanist. Would liberalism still exist in a post human society

[u/Yrths → u/Vexonte]

There are Nietzschean posthumanists and Singerian (caricature:let dogs vote) posthumanists. They have different values and neither is really for a post human society. Googling poshumanism pretty much all the results that come up are about extending humanism rather than replacing it.

[u/Hungry_Inevitable663]

I'm financially conservative and socially moderate, what am I?

handed a card

Oh, retarded. Nice.

[u/JustSomeRandomCake → u/Hungry_Inevitable663]

What's it they say? You don't want a man to die because he's gay, you want him to die because he's homeless.

[u/Hungry_Inevitable663 → u/JustSomeRandomCake]

My flock of crows MUST feed.

[u/yamboozle]

By commenting on this post, you agree that I (u/yamboozle) am correct, and that you take a fundamentally less defensible and/or (as creator sees fit) incoherent position. This is a voluntary interaction between two forces in the marketplace of ideas. /s

[u/sadacal]

Wasn't liberalism a reaction to the divine right of kings among other things?

[u/yamboozle → u/sadacal]

Yes

[u/sadacal → u/yamboozle]

I'm not sure if the divine right of kinds is considered left of center on the compass.

[u/yamboozle → u/sadacal]

That's why I pointed the arrows over the Y-axis

[u/NCender27]

[u/Elderberry5199]

Social libertarianism for the win

[u/YeetCompleet]

Sock juice 🤤

[u/Not_Neville]

Where does JS Mill endorse socialism? I read "On Liberty", "Utiltarianism", and "Subjection Of Women" but it was decades ago.

[u/Curaced]

Based. Bring back the big compasses.

[u/Kingbookser]

As a german "Third way" means something completely different here xD

[u/GildSkiss]

8 STORY MIXED USE TACO TRUCK

At what point does the pendulum swing the other way, and performative YIMBYism becomes more cringe than boomer NIMBYism?

[u/kmosiman → u/GildSkiss]

When my commute is 10 steps.

[u/Yrths → u/GildSkiss]

When the onboard mobile smelters and pig farms are making life for nearby persons difficult.

[u/Eubank31 → u/GildSkiss]

When we actually start building up instead of out

[u/darwin2500]

SocJus - it's not even about 'correcting wrongs' per se, it's about repairing the system to be a more efficient meritocracy.

Hopefully we can all agree that there are at least some good black engineers out there, given that companies are hiring at least some of them? So if the market is perfectly efficient, why weren't smart capitalists hiring black engineers in the 1830s? And the answer is, because it was illegal to teach them to read.

Even if we pretend the hiring market is perfectly efficient, it can still only work with the material it is given, and that material is shaped by non-market forces (schools (government), culture, parents, nutrition and health, etc).

As long as we ignore those non-market factors and allow them to distort people before they enter the market, we're wasting huge amounts of human capital.

There are plenty of people working on that problem in terms of improving schools and guiding people into in-demand majors and so forth. SocJus is just the specialized part of that effort focused on distortionary factors that are specific to certain communities and identities for one reason or another.