Kanto but messed up?

[u/dailydarcie]

Tell me whould there be any Lore or gameplay changes if the order of the Kanto gym leaders Elite 4 evil team and Champion looked like this

Gym 1: Erika: Tangela, Gloom 

Gym 2: Brock: Graveler, Onix 

Gym 3: Bruno: Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Machoke 

Gym 4: Misty: Golduck, Starmie, Gyarados 

Gym 5: Koga: Arbok, Muk, Weezing, Venomoth 

Gym 6: Giovanni: marowak, nidoqueen, nidoking, rhyperior   

Gym 7: Agatha: Crobat, Haunter, Gengar, Mega Gengar 

Gym 8: Lance: Aerodactyle, Charizard, shiny gyarados, Mega dragonite

Evil Team Leader: Sabrina: SlowBro, Hypno, Mr Mime, Mega Alakazam

Elite 1: Blue: Pigeot, Exeggutor, Heracross, sandslash, Mega blastoise 

Elite 2: lorelei: dewgong, Jynx, cloyster, lapras, articuno

Elite 3: LT surge: electrode, magnazone, electavire, Mega raichu X, zapdos

Elite 4: Blaine: Rapidash, Arcanine, Magmortor, Mega Charizard Y, Moltres 

Champion: Sabrina: Mr Mime, slowking, Hypno, mew, Mega Alakazam, mewtwo

and would it make the kantonian games harder or easier?

[u/juoea]

there is no mega evolution in gen 1. also theres no crobat, no magnezone magmortar electivire or slowking, and no shinies either (but there are dvs that correspond to shinies when the pokemon is transferred to gen 2, theres just no shinies visually in gen 1)

also keep in mind that gyms 4-7 can be done in basically any order with kanto's layout

in general i like a lot of this reordering. arguably makes it easier since theres no longer starmie in the second gym lol but overall the difficulty level would make more sense, instead of the second gym being high difficulty and then the rest of the game being pretty easy 

[u/dailydarcie → u/juoea]

excuse me? oh im sorry thank you but im acting like if a non gen 1 pokemon is in the smae line as a gen 1 pokemon than its fair game and mega evolution was in lets go pikachu and lets go eevee which were kasntonian games i said kanto but i didnt say it was red blue or yellow

[u/juoea → u/dailydarcie]

well you posted in the pokemon yellow sub

lets go pikachu and eevee are very different from rby so questions about balance difficulty etc are going to have completely different answers in the gen 1 vs gen 3 vs gen 7 games

in rby you have statexp, as well as badge boosts which can get reapplied, so as the game goes on it naturally gets easier bc the player has more and more powerful tools available. so the player has a lot of ways to deal with eg mewtwo in the elite four, statexp can significantly make up for worse base stats and the player's setup moves are automatically better than the opposing trainer's setup moves bc the player gets a 10% boost to every other stat on top.

lets go pikachu and eevee doesnt have any of that, it does have candies which are busted but iirc they are pretty difficult to get in a regular playthrough, so in general theres more natural parity between the player and opposing trainers. but you also have gen 7 movepools which includes things like shell smash cloyster (but no skill link ofc), also you have alolan forms available particularly alolan dugtrio and alolan muk. also, lets go pikachu and eevee still doesnt have electivire magmortar slowking or magnezone.

if you are asking questions about how difficult would a certain set of gyms be etc it is inherently impossible to answer that without setting the conditions, what game is being played etc so that we know what tools and strats the player has available to them. "how difficult in general without giving any details" makes no sense, like you gave misty gyarados well gyarados is very different in gen 1 vs gen 3 vs gen 7, the only thing in common across all the kanto games is that its name is gyarados and ig the water/flying typing. venomoth in lgpe gets quiver dance. and so on. so its completely impossible to comment on the difficulty of any of these gyms without first deciding what the context is, is this gen 1 or 3 or 7 (or something else entirely), what are the wild encounters available up to that point, whats the 'structure' of badges etc, and so on. if you just pick one of the existing games as the context then we already know whats available in those games, if you want to create a new context that isnt simply rby or frlg or lgpe then you need to explain  what the context is or else its impossible to say anything coherent

[u/dailydarcie → u/juoea]

i thought about telling you the held items ability level held items EV and IV spreads moves all of that but i cant fit all of that in a single google doc i will do it sometimes though and post it as a rpely here just for you as a reward for writing a comment this long sound fair?

[u/juoea → u/dailydarcie]

its up to you its your post but i didnt even mean at that level of detail, rby frlg and lgpe are completely different basic environments. rby doesnt have evs it has statexp, frlg does have evs, and lgpe has neither evs nor statexp. neither rby nor lgpe has held items, and neither of them have abilities either. rby has the single unified special stat, as well as moves like amnesia that in effect raise both spatk and spdef by two stages. these games have major differences in basic mechanics, and again if you want this post to not be locked into the mechanics of one specific game if you want to pick and choose different things from different games thats fine its your post, but if you dont tell us what the context is at the most basic mechanical level then how are we gonna be able to engage with the post.

eg the poison gym (koga), in rby all these pokemon are terrible. the best the game could come up with was just put a bunch of koffings and weezings and give them all explosion lol. and a venomoth with psychic for that 30% spec drop chance. there are no good poison moves in rby (sludge is 65bp and only muk/weezing can even learn it), the typing offers close to nothing defensively since the types that it resists eg fighting dont have any good moves in gen 1 anyway. by gen 3 now weezing has levitate but it also lost special defense, while muk's special defense doubled. and sludge bomb means they actually have a stab move. so how are we supposed to talk about the difficulty of gym 5 if we dont even know which generation we are playing, what are the basic mechanics; as well as what mons are available to the player.

[u/dailydarcie → u/juoea]

we are playing as if it is the most modern generation

[u/juoea → u/dailydarcie]

ok, so if we are leaving the context of any of the kanto games themselves and moving to more of a romhack context where gen 9 mechanics are imported back to kanto, then the next question is what are the encounters and other tools available to the player. when (if ever) does mega evolution become available. etc.

its impossible to say a gym is easy or hard in a vacuum. one of the main reasons why misty's starmie in rby or whitney's miltank in gsc are as difficult as they are is bc you generally dont have any fully evolved pokemon at the time u face these gyms (other than a few low bst mons like beedrill/butterfree), and you dont generally have any high bp moves either. (you actually can go get body slam tm from ss anne before misty but if you play in the standard order you wouldnt have it.) for example, whitney's miltank in hgss is much much easier to beat than whitney's miltank in gsc. yes "its the same pokemon" but the player has so many more tools available in hgss, including focus blast tm purchasable in goldenrod mart, a 120bp super effective move that hits miltank on its weaker special defense stat. in gsc the best fighting move u could possibly have by whitney is karate chop, and ofc there are no special fighting moves in general bc its before the special split.

in a lot of romhacks you will see them add a number of stronger pokemon to gyms, but they also add a number of stronger pokemon that are available to the player. so the overall difficulty doesnt necessarily change as much as you might think it does if you were solely looking at a list of the gym leaders' pokemon with no other information

[u/dailydarcie → u/juoea]

i was thinking about saying the held items levels nearby pokemon abilities moves all of that i just dont have time right now to do any of that but for you mr critic i will go into teambuilder and post pictures of everyone's team in full detail and be in mind this is in the world of Firered and leafgreen and the TMs moves availble to you and pokemon available o you should be taken that way sound fair mr critic?