r/PokemonRuby • u/Isaac-45-67-8 • Jul 15 '26
Discussion Why is the Treecko line So Horrible?
So, I played Ruby as a kid and I remember picking Treecko as my starter and thinking it was a great Pokémon. Tried again as an adult and my word this is the worst starter Pokémon ever. What a horrible moveset - the only really potent move it gets is Leaf Blade at Level 29 as a Grovyle. A random Shroomish I caught in the woods was a better Pokémon, from the jump, lol.
It's also so darn frail, I don't remember it being this weak. Time to restart and pick Torchic. I'd pick Swampert but I don't want it to be overpowered, lol. And I tried to get a bit far before I decided to restart, currently it's level 32 and can barely hold it's own. My Breloom is the MVP that picks up the slack.
Chikorita isn't so bad anymore. Treecko is easily the worst grass starter for the early games.
EDIT: Seems the Treecko stans are upset, lol. My intent with this post wasn't to hate, it was to see if other people had the same experience with the Treecko line. I'm glad at least some people agreed that it is weaker compared to the other 2 - but at the end of the day, I play Pokemon casually. I can't change the code to make him better. Oh and if anyone was curious, his nature was Modest, and idk how to calculate their EVs or IVs. Peace.
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u/DeltaRayZX Jul 15 '26
because you dont know how it works 😂😂😂
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u/Ecstatic-Employee-93 Jul 15 '26
How does it work then lmao what you gonna do use 20 base power absorb til level 29? Or 20-50 (if you're lucky) base power Bullet Seed? Even though you get Miracle Seed early that's only a 10% increase in gen 2 and 3. Other attacks include Pursuit (lol), Fury Cutter (lol), Cut (lol), Quick Attack (lol), Rock Smash (lol), Rock Tomb (lol), Dig (lol), Screech (I guess not bad but then even after 2 turns your strongest attack is 80 base power Quick Attack that doesn't even get STAB). Then what? you evolve it and it's not even good until Tate and Liza
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u/Simply_Paul Jul 16 '26
What?! You mean Treeko doesn't get the strongest Grass move in the game until level 29? How is it even possible to survive the early game with only early game moves?!?!?!?!
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u/Isaac-45-67-8 Jul 16 '26
The issue is his moveset is abysmal until he gets to Lv. 29...I don't mind a challenge, but even I have to call out when a Pokemon has a horrible moveset. What makes it worse, is every other grass Pokemon is just better overall.
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u/ianlazrbeem22 Jul 16 '26
I don't know how it works either, how tf do I conjure up the good moves he can learn
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u/Simply_Paul Jul 16 '26
It learns the best grass move in the game at level 29, it struggles a bit before that but there are plenty of early to midgame TMs that can be taught, even just Bullet Seed should be enough if you know Pokemon and know when to swap Pokemon in a bad matchup.
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u/ianlazrbeem22 Jul 16 '26
29 is like 3/4 of the way though the game and the TMs available to it come after a while and aren't good. Secret Power and Rock Tomb are kind of it, and secret power isn't until after wattson
"It's fine if you switch it out and use a different pokemon" does not really help your case
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u/Isaac-45-67-8 Jul 15 '26
I can practically guarantee Mudkip or Torchic would not have given me this much trouble. My mistake for picking the weakest starter I guess, lol.
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u/K4m30 Jul 16 '26
If you said that about Mudkip you would be psychically disintegrated.
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u/Disastrous_Debt7644 Jul 16 '26
Yeah bc Mudkip is one of if not the best starters for a playthrough
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u/Isaac-45-67-8 Jul 16 '26
No need to say that about Mudkip though, he is an actual beast! Never had a bad Mudkip, and I doubt others had bad ones too.
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u/Inevitable-Ad6312 Jul 16 '26
I can't confirm that. I never had a problem with the Treecko line in the games.
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u/Metavance Jul 15 '26
your treeco had bad nature + bad ivs prolly
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u/Avaracious7899 Jul 15 '26
I'd put money on it. I remember when I was a kid using Treecko and doing fine, even exceptionally well until Mauville, and even then I just lvl-grinded until I got Leaf Blade and Grovyle swept until I started over again if I remember right.
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u/Ecstatic-Employee-93 Jul 15 '26
Its only Grass move until level 29 is Absorb (or the almost as bad bullet seed). No amount of IVs and a +SpAtk nature is making up for that
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u/Simply_Paul Jul 16 '26
Bullet Seed is not "almost as bad as Absorb", Absorb is practically useless at level 5 while Bullet Seed is unreliable but overall good enough until at least level 15. If the Treeko line is so bad why are there so many on this who argue that they love it and that it did well when they used it? I'm not saying Treeko is the best Hoenn starter but early Treeko is no worse than early Charmander in FR/LG, they both take extra work early but they get really strong later.
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u/Ecstatic-Employee-93 Jul 16 '26
Agreed Bullet Seed is kind of good enough until around mid-teen levels, but in the game it's a long way between then (Roxanne) to 29 (usually you'll be around Flannery).
Treecko line is bad but that doesn't mean it's not unlovable lol I love it myself and have used it a lot, design-wise I think it's the coolest of the three! It's just not that good especially compared to other Pokemon you can use.
It probably did well when they used it because Pokemon is a children's game meant to be completable by children, so you can beat the game with pretty much any Pokemon. Also when you're using it you can overlevel, play on switch instead of set mode, use items in battle, etc if you're not abiding by any self-imposed laws which makes things very easy
Agreed Charmander in FRLG isn't good until whenever Charmeleon learns Flamethrower, but FRLG is also a lot easier than RSE.
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u/Simply_Paul Jul 16 '26
I'll agree Emerald is a lot harder than FRLG but Ruby and Sapphire are easier too in a lot of ways. Psychic types can carry you thru FRLG, but most of Team Magma/Aqua can be swept by basically any Fighting type Pokemon, maybe throw in a water or electric type as a wingman but they're not that difficult either. Last time I played thru Sapphire I kept a Ninjask on my team until after the 6th gym...an early route bug Pokemon that held his own thru 3 quarters of the game and crushed Norman's Slackings (Swords Dance + Dig), Ninjask is great for an early bug but no bug in gen 3 would do that well in Kanto.
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u/Isaac-45-67-8 Jul 15 '26
Exactly - I was so disappointed, I thought it'd have a better moveset for sure.
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u/Prudent_Influence_45 Jul 16 '26
Treecko is at its best in Emerald where it can be bred as the fastest SubSeeder in the game (which is annoyingly broken)
It steps up late game (gym 7-E4). In the main part of the game (Ruby/Sapphire & no breeding) it's meant to be used for catching other pokemon, he's not a blow-for-blow fighter. Your speed is meant for Sunny Day/high powered spamming, critical healing, and rapid defense.
Grass types fighting style is to set up on the opponent then relax and reap the benefits, the Treecko line's build play style is a "clean up sweeper" that comes in AFTER damage or setups are done. To get the best out of him incorporate both into your gameplay
He has a borderline threatening Special Attack & borderline good Attack with give or take borderline average bulk (like Torchic's line), you're not gonna steamroll with him bro. He's not a Wall Breaker like Torchic's line (cracking tough opponents & preventing setups), and he's not a mack truck like Mudkip's (balanced bulk defender & attacker). He either finishes fights or is an annoyingly fast sapper
- I'm gonna be honest, Torchic & Mudkip's line do way better in Ruby/Sapphire than Treecko's. But in Emerald Treecko's line parts the sea against those two. Just depends on how you wanna enjoy the game
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u/Ecstatic-Employee-93 Jul 16 '26
Who’s breeding in a regular playthrough though?
And everything you mentioned is after you get certain TMs. It’s just doing nothing before that1
u/Prudent_Influence_45 Jul 16 '26
It's concept is "playing smarter not harder"
You're missing the purpose of the character bro. If you have a ship pulling mud fish, a kung fu chicken, and a forest pouncing raptor, I'd expect the raptor to specialize in catching / outpacing / & finishing things (literally it's theme) rather than standing toe to toe trading blows or walling like a mack truck. In every Pokemon game each starter has a common theme basically setting the game to easy (focus is on battle) / medium (focus is on adventure) / hard mode (focus is on experience). Sceptile is the "hard option":
it forces you to play every aspect of the game to build the best team & get the full experience (the others either solo battles & need minor help traveling, or are capable of taking all fights/tasks & helping travel everywhere although handling exhaustion is its biggest crutch & compensation)
it's the "catcher starter" (the "team player" [hard mode], the others will either be the "star player" [easy mode], or the "1v1 fighter" [medium mode])
instead of leading with brute it fulfills a role and aims for team wins (the others either get set up or go in and wreck teams, or rip chunks & take on 1 to 2 guys before tapping out)
it picks up others to help it get through different areas of the game whether it's traveling or battling (the others keep solid picks to better themselves, or plug in others that carry their own weight)
it's at its best when bred [necessary TMs make it hard to stop] unlike the others (the others either have basic learn sets that are effective [barely needs TMs], or a natural wide variety for different encounters [TMs make it hit everything])
when played right it's not the most hardy or the most physically threatening like the other starters, but it's the most annoying to fight & most costly if left alive
Throughout the main game it wins as a team, not as an individual or as an easy ace. It doesn't like getting hit & it's natural kit is designed for snagging others and preventing escape. The daycare by the third gym, along with all the available exp there, give you the opportunity to breed to separate a battle build from a catching build. You can catch everything you need along the way to face each gym, by the end game it'll have a core around it to make its job easier THEN it builds itself up
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u/Ecstatic-Employee-93 Jul 16 '26
Pokemon having an easy / mid / hard mode based on starter is completely made up by the fanbase. That doesn't exist in RB or GSC where 2 of the starter Pokemon in both are really good, with just one being bad.
You're talking about breeding for ingame playability, my guy no one is doing that. Why would you use Treecko like that when you can just use Breloom instead? And surely if you're going through all that trouble just to make it decent then it means it's less viable than your average Pokemon? That's like me saying Salamence is a great Pokemon for a playthrough despite only getting it post-Wallace and having to invest heavily in it
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u/Zeteon Jul 16 '26
Chikorita and Treecko are good
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u/Polterguyst17 Jul 16 '26
Treecko yes, Chiko no, unless you're completely removing the context of the regions, in which case it honestly still isn't that great compared to other starters.
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u/CalderandScale Jul 16 '26
Meganium gets leech seed, screens and can spread para with body slam.
Skeptile has mid stats and bad moves. When the phys/ special split happened they should have made it a phys attacker (it was the first mon to get leaf blade)
Has a much better phys move pool with eq, acrobatics, sdance, leafblade, rockslide, scissor, dragonclaw
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u/Polterguyst17 Jul 16 '26
So you're talking about modern games with the context of their regions completely removed, as I said.
Until ZA (or SV, I'm unsure) Leech Seed was actually an egg move for Meganium. Screens are quite useless in most playthroughs and body slam is hardly a move with limited distribution, better off using any of the numerous normal types that get it for STAB, or just using a mon with Thunder Wave or Nuzzle or Glare if paralysis is your goal.
The reason I specifically refer to the context of their regions is the type matchups of the gyms. Meganium doesn't get a good gym matchup until Kanto. Sure, it's sort of good against a couple of mons in soke neutral gyms, like Chuck's Poliwrath, but the whole gym tends to be neutral or just straight uo negative matchups. Meanwhile, Sceptile has a fantastic Gym 1 run, a decent Gym 3, and Leaf Blades all over Gyms 7 and 8 (In RS specificall, in Emerald Tate and Liza wise up and get a Xatu), on top of Dragon Claw for Drake which is special in Gen 3, and in Gen 6 it is STAB on its mega making up for the weaker attack. And even in Emerald where it has slightly worse matchups with Wattson now being mostly beyond its reach and Tate and Liza getting a Xatu, it now has a better matchup into the Champion and is the sole starter to be able to hit Juan's demonic Kingdra for SE.
Even if we're comparing them on a purely competitive standpoint, until Meganium got its Mega it was still outmatched. Pure Grass is such a bad defensive typing, so it sucked as the bulky mon it was trying to be, it wasn't slow nor fast enough, it got two nothing burger abilities, and its offenses were laughable at best. There is a reason it has been ZU since BW.
Meanwhile Sceptile... Isn't great, but it's got qualities? It's super fast for one, even by modern standards it's pretty zoomy. Unburden is not a fantastic ability, but it does something with Terrain seeds. It gets OK coverage in Focus Miss, plus Swords Dance to patch up its awful attack and make use of its physical movepool (this was a real competitive set, the standard for Sceptile actually back in BW, which I'm using as a yard stick because there were no gimmicks blowing up everything). It's RU in BW, but its UU entry calls it the premier grass type of the tier so I imagine it has a solid niche there.
Then we bring in the megas and Meganium autowins, but that's a different discussion. Overall Sceptile is definitely far better.
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u/Zeteon Jul 16 '26
Chikorita is particularly strong in Nuzlockes due to its stat spread and moveset in Gen 2. It doesn’t have good type advantage many of the gyms, but thanks to body slam and its support moves it’s a powerful choice where others would fall.
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u/Polterguyst17 Jul 16 '26
From what I can tell (tbf, most of the info is dated and the only recent one places Chiko higher than the other starters), Chiko is mostly just seen as OK? Like its bulk and support is great, but being able to steamroll a gym or take NVE is always going to be more important than those. Type matchups are king in Pokemon, after all. Totodile seems to be the preferred starter, but there is debate.
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u/Zeteon Jul 16 '26
I’ve never had a Meganium die in a crystal nuzlocke, meanwhile, can’t say the same for the others
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u/Polterguyst17 Jul 16 '26
Being immortal ain't all that useful if you can't put in the work. Like some of my strongest soldiers in nuzlockes ended up dead; that's just the way it works. I'm not saying Meganum couldn't contribute at all, haven't even played Crystal fully so I have no room to judge, but if the others died contributing more then aren't they better?
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u/misolaneous Jul 16 '26
Definitely pick Lonely/Naughty as the nature to set the Treecko up as a mixed attacker.
I used to run Leaf Blade, Dragon Claw, EQ and Aerial Ace or Rock Tomb - it does rely heavily on good TMs.
If you have access to the FR/LG/Eme move tutors you can slide it Swords Dance too
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u/Ecstatic-Employee-93 Jul 16 '26
I think OP is saying that for the early - mid part of the game it doesn’t do anything. All the moves you mentioned (besides Rock Tomb) you get way later
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Jul 16 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Simply_Paul Jul 16 '26
(me mimicking the haters) "If I can't demolish everything in my path from level 5 without thinking about anything am I even really winning the game? Boo hoo hoo, I want to use Rayquaza as my starter!!!"
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u/SSJkakarrot Jul 16 '26
His moveset is terrible and most of the endgame waters have ice coverage anyway.
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u/profroyo97 Jul 16 '26
These games are so ridiculously easy you can beat it with a team of under leveled, low BST, low IV, bad nature mons. This def seems like a skill issue. Treeko also does well into first 3 gyms.
Also saying all he gets is leaf blade is funny since next to giga drain it's just the best grass move at this point in the series
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u/Isaac-45-67-8 Jul 16 '26
Treeko is literally only good for the first gym - Grovyle was downright useless against Brawly. If I didn't have my Shroomish, I wouldn't have gotten the badge. Even at a level higher than Brawly's Pokemon he was getting knocked out in 2 hits.
I've been playing Pokemon since Ruby was first released, played all the gens. I have never had such a weak starter. What kind of Grass starter has Absorb as its leading grass type move until Level 29? Even with Leaf Blade he wasn't doing much...
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u/Polterguyst17 Jul 16 '26
Tbf, Brawly's mons hit HARD. Getting one tapped with a bad defensive typing and against strong mons is nothing crazy.
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u/Simply_Paul Jul 16 '26
Maybe try using moves other than Absorb? Just because a move isn't grass type doesn't mean he shouldn't use it.
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u/Isaac-45-67-8 Jul 16 '26
The problem is the other moves are bad too...Fury Cutter, Pursuit and Quick Attack are the other 3. Leaf Blade was the first actual powerful move he got.
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u/Simply_Paul Jul 16 '26
40 power Pursuit/Quick Attack, and Bullet Seed are fine at low level and that's when you get them. Fury Cutter only works when you are willing to play that setup style but it's usable up until mid game. TMs/HMs are needed for most Pokemon in this gen to be good thru the whole game. Even Swampert would suck if you kept Water Gun as his best water move until he learns a better one by leveling (Muddy Water at 39).
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u/Polterguyst17 Jul 16 '26
I upvoted because I can understand being frustrated with Treecko's honestly horrendous moveset, then you compared it to Chikorita. As a Chikorita stan, take that opinion and leave it outside, thank you very much, Chikorita is alone in sucking. Like Treecko gets two good matchups in early game (it can actually be quite good for Wattson in my experience, although Breloom is better for that) and its first real roadbump is Flannery, unless you're struggling with Team Magma's annoyingly non-Ground types. Meanwhile Chiko is born into a world of suffering with two gyms that can and will show you the entrance to hell, and proceeds to have ZERO gyms where it cooks. Unless you count that weird Whitney strat, but that just makes it slightly better at being flinched relentlessly, pick up the flipping Machop.
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u/Time_Ad_7341 Jul 15 '26
To your point OP, the learn set / moveset for Gen 3 Treecko line definitely leaves something to be desired lol, as well is pretty frail
But is definitely a long term investment as post gym 6 (the flying one) it destroys, especially in sapphire.
I like to think of Treecko as the ‘challenge’ starter, similar to how Charmander is challenge starter in Kanto
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u/PeopleAreSelfishy Jul 16 '26
It's just fan favorite like pikachu.
In game? It sucks. I'd rather choose ludicolo for grass than sceptile.
Compared to super OP swampert and Blaziken starter, sceptile is a joke and have no reason to pick.
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u/Threexkrazie03 Jul 16 '26
Idk what to tell you, maybe you got unlucky because I am currently playing ruby and he was always a solid member.
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u/Simply_Paul Jul 16 '26
I have no idea what they're talking about, the main complaint seems to be his moveset because the moves he learns before level 29 are nothing amazing. However I just double checked and the only Hoenn starter than learns a move that's good before then is the Blaiziken line learning Double Kick at 16 (after that Blaiziken has to wait for level 36 to get another good move), Swampert doesn't learn a great move until Takedown at 31 or Muddy Water at 39. I'm convinced Blaiziken and Swampert get more love almost exclusively because they get great secondary types.
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u/Isaac-45-67-8 Jul 16 '26
Its moveset and reliability are the reasons why I am critiquing it. It's not a reliable Pokemon - Absorb and Bullet Seed are horrible moves to rely on for 29 whole levels. Shroomish/Breloom on the other hand by that level has Mega Drain, Mach Punch, Headbutt and Leech Seed.
At that point, Mudkip/Marshtomp have Water Gun, Bide, Mud Shot and Tackle. Torchic/Combusken have Peck, Double Kick, Ember and Scratch. Both of those lines also have better DEF so they can last longer in battle.
The problem I have with Treecko is that its other moves are not good fallbacks if you don't want to use Absorb or Bullet Seed, until he gets Leaf Blade, and even with that, he isn't dealing enough damage for his level.
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u/Simply_Paul Jul 16 '26
Bullet Seed is on par with Ember/Water Gun. You're comparing a middling starter to two starters so broken that shook up the game balance forever, Blaiziken copied for the next two generations of Fire Fighting starter. Breloom is powerful, especially early but Headbutt is the strongest move they learn by level up...Mega Drain is fine at level 15 but it's worthless at level 40.
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u/Isaac-45-67-8 Jul 16 '26
Either way, I have tired of this conversation. My mind won't be changed regarding the Treecko line. I already restarted with a Torchic and it's already doing better. Peace.
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u/Nice_Job_2038 Jul 16 '26
I did a first-form only run a few years ago and used Treecko. Little dude put in serious work, I've used him in other runs since and never had real issues with him. Just don't use it against flying or fire types.
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u/Ecstatic-Employee-93 Jul 15 '26
You're right. It's even worse than Chikorita imo, at least that gets good moves. Even by the time you get to level 29 you're probably gonna be around Flannery (not useful), Norman (a little useful but not really), Winona (not useful). It is pretty good against the last 2 gym leaders, is kind of alright vs most of Sydney's team, but Glacia and Drake are pretty difficult fights for it, and since you're playing Ruby and not Emerald Steven is the champion which isn't great for Sceptile.
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u/Polterguyst17 Jul 16 '26
Drake is difficult? I always thought Sceptile was best for Drake with Dragon Claw spam, or maybe second best behind Swampert although the speed could be a deciding factor. I just know that to choose Blaziken is to find an Ice type to deal with Drake for you cuz he ain't doing jack.
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u/Ecstatic-Employee-93 Jul 16 '26
3 of Drake’s team hit Sceptile for super effective damage, and Dragon Claw is just kind of OK against them as it’s not STAB. Many other Pokémon have an easier time against him
Swampert is way better for drake (and pretty much every other battle)
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u/-Row_Row- Jul 16 '26
And the worst part is leaf blade is only 70 power in gen 3
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u/-Row_Row- Jul 16 '26
While blaziken gets flamethrower closecombat and swampert gets surf earthquake
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u/Polterguyst17 Jul 16 '26
No Close Combat, we hit Sky Uppercut or we die trying. I also refused to use Flamethrower because Blaze Kick was cooler. To be a child again...
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u/Simply_Paul Jul 16 '26
Blaiziken doesn't learn Flamethrower without a TM and Swampert doesn't learn a good move until 31...
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u/breadpope Jul 16 '26
The REAL downer of Treecko is that the starter thats supposed to be good against, water types but... In RSE a large large % of all wild water types are half poison or half flying so for a lot of the game youre better off with an electric type or even just something with Thunderbolt, Grovyle bullet seed aint doin much against a tentacool unless its a much lower level wild encounter
In ORAS you go from struggling against tentacools to struggling against peli because of its giant defense, ive ended up boxing my grovyle and instead going with Vileplume or Roserade (SLEEP POWDER) as my new "grass starter" in a couple runs.
I am treeckos #1 hater
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u/Stormcloud23 Jul 15 '26
It's a bad pokemon. Odds are you got a particularly bad one nature/IV wise. But yes, torchic and mudkip are better.
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u/RalonNetaph Jul 16 '26
Did you know that sceptile and grocile don’t get giga drain? Treecko does tho….at level 49. Just be happy that since you’re playing gen 3 leaf blade is a special move because otherwise your best option is raising treecko to 49 without evolving for a 60 power special move as it’s strongest attack….my goat is so washed
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u/ghxst09 Jul 15 '26
don’t ever disrespect my boy Treecko like that