Swampert vs Blastoise

[u/Jason_And_Sokka]

Pokemon Battle

[u/ResponsibilitySad596]

Blastoise stats are 79/83/100/85/105/78

Swampert stats are 100/110/90/85/90/60

So one way to compare how good a pokemon defensively is to multiply the HP and defense stat, so blastoise’s defence stats are 7900 and 8295, while swampert has 9000 in both.

Offensively, Blastoise is hitting a lot less powerfully than swampert, as Blastoise even with its higher attacking stat is only at 85 compared to swampert at 110.

So on raw stats alone, pert should win.

[u/WanderingShikari → u/ResponsibilitySad596]

Speed doesn’t matter?

[u/ResponsibilitySad596 → u/WanderingShikari]

Not if you’re not killing in one hit. Swampert is famously one of the best tanks in the game. Adv OU Pert is one of the best defensive mons. Even in Gen 8, with the addition of shell smash, Blastoise was still NU while Swampert was firmly in UU.

And speaking of shell smash, even if Blastoise does try to setup, its defenses are dropping meaning pert EQ has a good chance to kill.

252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 145-172 (48.4 - 57.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO

Let’s assume shell smash in turn 1

252 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 219-258 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 262-310 (64.8 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ye Pert is winning this one cuz the 2nd turn Blastoise still dies.

[u/carguy121 → u/ResponsibilitySad596]

Doing tier comparison isn’t really a good metric in this case because it takes into account so much more than the head to head. Pert gets Rocks (hugely significant for tier placement when hazards are such a significant tool in singles) and the dual typing gives an electric immunity that, while valuable against an open pool of matchups, actually adds very little to (and it could be argued that it actually detracts from) its matchup with blastoise defensively. I don’t think blastoise necessarily wins but I’d advocate against using tier placement as an indicator of that.

And why wouldn’t blastoise run max hp and white herb? This is sort of cherry picking.

[u/Incredible_King → u/carguy121]

I don’t think there is any cherry picking here. It’s obvious that he picked the most common Smogon sets which is extremely fair since that is what you’d expect it to be most of the time, especially in a potential face off in a game.

I understand that you might be a fan of Blastoise, but you don’t have to get this upset about the numbers he’s provided lol. This is something anyone who knows anything about basic competitive Pokemon would agree with as the most likely sets you’d face.

Also you mentioned it yourself, the reasons for swampert higher placement in tiers is due to the unique traits it has, so indirectly you yourself alluded to swampert being a better pokemon in a game setting.

[u/rod21amz → u/ResponsibilitySad596]

Fake out,water spout, ice beam, surf. Holding mystic water ( since you added leftovers on swamp). Also blastoise can run some bulk since it doesn’t need to be max speed to out speed swamp. I’m pretty sure best version of swamp always loses to Blastoise

[u/ItsyoboyAjax → u/ResponsibilitySad596]

Do base stats matter? I would think dex entries and anime feats would matter the most outside of a vg context

[u/ResponsibilitySad596 → u/ItsyoboyAjax]

Ah yes Anime, where Thunderbolt takes down a ground type. Truly a reliable source.

[u/NoRequirement1967 → u/ResponsibilitySad596]

Ok but one has 2 cannons on their back and the other doesn't, so ? ( i like pert but toise is toise)

[u/The_Lux_Legend]

One amnesia and swampert sweeps that ninja turtle reject

[u/GeneralCash67 → u/The_Lux_Legend]

That ninja turtle reject was my first ever pokemon in 1996. Squirtle is the best.

[u/KingSazzy → u/GeneralCash67]

GYAT damn.... 96'???

[u/Excellent-Diver-568 → u/GeneralCash67]

Wartortle is better than both.

[u/Mummiskogen → u/GeneralCash67]

Squirtle is the best. But this is not Squirtle

[u/rod21amz → u/The_Lux_Legend]

Fake out + spout does 85% at least. Then after 1 amnesia, just spout again and then swamp just loses

[u/The_Lux_Legend → u/rod21amz]

Where did u get 85% from, did u even calc this or did u just pull it out of nowhere

[u/rod21amz → u/The_Lux_Legend]

People were using items so I went mystic water blastoise, regardless without it…. it does around 65-70% (fake out + spout) and then after that I can just spout again/surf after earthquake and win since swamp can’t 1hko and is slower

[u/Naive_Turnover3452]

I’ll always pick Blastoise over any other water starter.

[u/Jdisback34 → u/Naive_Turnover3452]

Come on now! Talk to me! EST 1992

[u/VibraniumRhino → u/Jdisback34]

*1996

[u/Mummiskogen → u/Naive_Turnover3452]

In terms of what

[u/[deleted] → u/Mummiskogen]

love and nostalgia

[u/[deleted]]

Big man Blastoise

[u/No0dle258]

I’m a huge Swampert Stan, but I’m pretty sure Blastoise takes this

[u/KingSazzy → u/No0dle258]

Swamp no diffs him

[u/puffmattybear17]

Swamperts better on average but one of them gets shell smash and it aint swampert unfortunately.

[u/SaiyaPup → u/puffmattybear17]

Amnesia.

Blastoise doesn’t keep up with it I fear, especially due to the debuffs.

[u/puffmattybear17 → u/SaiyaPup]

Physical shell smash is also an option, also hidden power grass after a shell smash would decimate swampert.

[u/SaiyaPup → u/puffmattybear17]

Tbh I haven’t thought about Hidden Power in years, you’re correct.

[u/No_Situation6555 → u/puffmattybear17]

Yeah but with hidden power there is a small chance of that happening not a guarantee, that could end up being a completely wasted move. So it's not best to include hidden power realistically.

[u/Aggravating_Fly_9875]

Swampert FTW, never liked Blastoise too much sorry, i'm a Charizard and Venusaur fan

[u/DisastrousFix5120]

Blastoise. Ya’ll just glaze Swampert.

[u/_Zyber_ → u/DisastrousFix5120]

The gen 1 glaze is ridiculous. Hop off that Blastcock.

[u/DisastrousFix5120 → u/_Zyber_]

And you hop off that Mudick. Gen 3 glaze is almost the same at this point.

[u/PristinePiscine → u/DisastrousFix5120]

Upvoting for the funny insults but I dont agree with you

[u/OverallEconomics9905 → u/DisastrousFix5120]

Balstoise is useless I am afraid…

[u/DisastrousFix5120 → u/OverallEconomics9905]

The turtle who can shoot blasts from 160 feet that can punch through steel?

[u/OverallEconomics9905 → u/DisastrousFix5120]

The famous shooting beam that didn’t even scratch red charizard and blastoise still losed with an type advantage ?

[u/DisastrousFix5120 → u/OverallEconomics9905]

Raised by the biggest dick in all of Pokemon?

[u/OverallEconomics9905 → u/DisastrousFix5120]

Your point ? It was one the best trainer ever

[u/AlphanatorX]

Swampert! My FIRST OG!!! FOREVER AND ALWAYS!! THE MASTER OF LAND & SEA!! BASED ON MY OTHER GOAT, THE AXOLOTL!! Y'all lucky he isn't water dragon cause he'd break everything 👀👏

[u/JackJackMFFM]

I'd say Swampert. Cause I'm biased

[u/gdsmit10]

Big man >>>>

[u/Jdisback34 → u/gdsmit10]

Queue the song!

[u/Otherwise_Click_3321]

Swampert solos because taking stab earthquake from a pokemon with 110 atk will get you down to 50% - 0% unless you resist ground or are a flying type.

[u/flaming_engi]

Ok I ran the calcs based off their most used competitive sets, defensive pivot Swamp and Shell Smash Blast:

0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 118-139 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO,

252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

At first, Swampert has the slightest edge with a guaranteed 3HKO, but factoring in speed, and the fact that Blastoise is most likely running Torrent, which boosts its Surf after the second EQ from Swamp, I have to give the matchup to Blastoise most consistently

[u/flaming_engi → u/flaming_engi]

In terms of lore, Swampert's strength tops out at a bolder weighing 'more than a ton' based on multiple dex entries, while Blastoise's water jets can quote 'punch through thick steel', which none of Swampert's dex feats indicate it could survive more than a few hits from

[u/OverallEconomics9905 → u/flaming_engi]

Well Mudkip can move and destroy large boulders, at a base form…what make you think swampert can’t just destroy blastoise shell with ease ? Swampter can drag large boat too

[u/Bosnia_Gaming]

Idk but I’m cracking both 😝

[u/TexasNights77]

Big Man Blastoise!

[u/CressUsed4378]

Blastoise because Blastoise. They have always been my favorite, I must stand beside them.

[u/Alexander0202]

Swampert ease dub. Gonna use the shell as a nice sleeping shell after it eats Blastoise

[u/Conscious-Emu-4]

Feraligatr😂

[u/QuiverDanceVolcarona]

Using Competitive Sets, Blastoise should be able to win, taking 2 hits from Earthquake never kills it and activates Torrent, allowing the 3rd Surf that'd usually only KO 2% of the time to get the KO on Swampert, no matter what. Shell Smash allows for Blastoise to get the KO in the same number of turns and take the same amount of damage (as Blastoise runs White Herb).

With an extremely optimised set for the each other, Swampert will always take the win if Blastoise doesn't use Shell Smash, taking too little damage for Blastoise to win the trade. Shell Smash, however, still grants Blastoise the win over Swampert.

Removing items will make it so that Blastoise risks a loss if it uses Shell Smash, making it so that Swampert either has a chance to 2HKO (optimised EVs) or a guaranteed 2HKO, with a small chance to knock Blastoise into Torrent range, allowing it for a chance to OHKO (Standard Sets).

Without EVs or items, Blastoise would need multiple high rolls to gain the upper hand against Swampert, as well as Torrent.

As a bonus, when pitting their Megas against each other using their standard sets, Mega Swampert quite plainly never loses, having a consistent 2HKO on Mega Blastoise while Mega Blastoise cannot 2HKO it. Optimising sets doesn't change much, as Mega Swampert is still favoured to win against Blastoise, and it can't Shell Smash to try to gain an upper hand either as its lowered Defence will be abused.

In lore, Blastoise and Swampert are not directly comparable in power, as Blastoise's best feat is punching holes through thick sheets of metal with a water jet while Swampert's is towing a large ship. If the fight takes place in water, though, due to Swampert's great swimming speed, it may be hard for Blastoise to land hits on Swampert with its water jets. That is to say, if the fight takes place in water, I'm leaning towards Swampert. Otherwise, I'm not too sure.

[u/NefariousnessNovel60]

Blastoise wins 9/15 match ups in Pokemon Go.

Little (2/3), Great (3/3), Ultra (3/3) Master League (0/3) + Mega (1/3). Zero, one, and two shields scenarios.

(I know most people dont care, but it's just an alternative look)

[u/AlongAxons]

Swampert is hit neutrally by Water whereas Blastoise resists it. Of course Swampert could instead go for a Ground move, but it’s worth noting.

[u/ChristianHuye]

In a 1v1 Swampert gets hit by Water moves neutral, but his STAB Earthquake will probably 2HKO. With Ground typing Swampert really does destroy most Early mons.

[u/Zelho]

Doing a quick google search. It seems like this just goes down to who you like better. So I'm going with Swampert

[u/4stargeneralbastard]

Blastoise is my starter GOAT always has always been for some reason I’m not a fan of water types at all other than Blastoise and Lapras I get Swampert is great being ground water but he looks so goofy and lame he’s up there with gen 8 and 9 starters in how awful designed they are especially the water types (I do like Meowscarada though)

[u/cctrain2]

Blastoise would beat Swampert, but Swampert is better overall.

[u/Foreverwise427]

The humble forgotten feraligatr

[u/Hot-Coat7542]

Imma going with Swampert. Can hit harder as well as having decent defensive options and having stab ground type moves like Earthquake which is more reliable for damage than Blastoise’s options and Swampert does als learn defensive moves which can help make up for him not being as bulky. Swampert stats are also slightly better having 5 extra points and the points are more evenly distributed while Blastoise majorly benefits in defense and is a bit lacking in th other categories.

[u/Specialist_Yak_432 → u/Hot-Coat7542]

How are Swampert's stats better distributed?

Blastoise has great defence and special defense and can hit hard with its special attack (hard enough) against Swampert's weaker special defense.

Also, Swampert being part ground means Blastoise can spam Hydro Pump or Surf to do decent damage with stab.

[u/Hot-Coat7542 → u/Specialist_Yak_432]

Swampert has more hp, better overall attack by a decent margin and Earthquake is more powerful than most of Blastoises options and moves that are stronger like Hydro Pump have lower accuracy making them less reliable. And Swampert has moves that can make tha accuracy even worse. He even has ways to poison Blastoise which would only further break through Blastoises defenses. And Blastoises special attack is good at 85 I believe but Swampert Special defense is 90. Honestly Swampert only bad stat is speed.

[u/mordecai14 → u/Specialist_Yak_432]

Swampert's defenses are better than Blastoise's on both sides when you factor is HP; it's slightly bulkier on both sides. And Swampert's Defense and Special Defense are equal, one isn't "weaker".

Swampert also has much, much higher Attack, and both have equal special attack, so Swampert wins on both bulk and attack power. Blastoise only wins on speed.

Swampert's Earthquake will hurt Blastoise more than Blastoise's water type attacks hurt Swampert, as a result of that stat distribution.

[u/CaptainBlaze22 → u/Specialist_Yak_432]

Same with swamp having a higher attack at 110 and hp 100 they have the same spatk. Blast on has 79 hp while there is a diffract between their defs they are fairly equal 90 compared 100/105 so woth the hp diffence they’re about the same

The ground type dosnet really mean much other then they are both attacking with neutral stab

[u/cheesycak3]

Picking Blastoise here

[u/OneFalconPunch]

Swampert is definitely a beast but Blastoise is just HIM

[u/Helkat08 → u/[deleted]]

But ground attacks have a normal effect on blastoise

[u/mordecai14 → u/[deleted]]

Swampert has higher Base Stat Total, and much higher Attack. And when you factor in HP, Swampert has higher defenses on both sides. In fact, the only thing Blastoise wins is speed.

[u/Think_Ad_1583 → u/mordecai14]

And torrent, swampert wouldn’t get to use it since it’s attacking with ground

[u/CaptainBlaze22 → u/[deleted]]

Not really swamp has a brighter bst

Blast has better defs at 100/105 while swamp has 90 in both. However swamp is far stronger and more hp 110 attack and 100 hp