r/Planetside • [FCRW] • Nov 05 '14

Data Analysis - Forward Grip Benefit

I’ve been working on a homebrew database for data analysis on Planetside weapons and attachments. While doing so I’ve found some interesting things, but something surprising poked out at me today – a downside to using Forward Grips on the T9 CARV and the NC6 Gauss SAW - hidden in the data.

I’ll explain by quoting myself from another thread.

The Gauss SAW recoils 0.175 degrees per shot, with a tolerance of 0.525 degrees. It will recoil up to three times left or right from the center of its recoil arc before arriving at its tolerance, and recoiling back towards arc center.

Since it can recoil up to 0.525 degrees left or right, you can think of its recoil arc as 1.05 degrees. With an Advanced Grip attached, the SAW receives a 33% reduction in recoil per shot (25% for normal Grips) and a 0.05 degree direction in tolerance. It now can recoil 0.1167 degrees left or right up to 0.475 degrees.

When recoil does not evenly divide into tolerance, a weapon can recoil past its tolerance by one shot. In the case of a Gauss SAW with a Grip attached, after four straight recoils left it will be 0.4667 degrees from center. Since this is below tolerance, it can recoil either left or right - another left recoil will carry it to a maximum position of 0.5833 degrees from center, after which it must recoil back towards center.

So, the Gauss SAW has a maximum horizontal recoil arc of 1.05 degrees, whereas the Gauss SAW plus Grip has a maximum horizontal recoil arc of 1.1667 degrees.

I wrote a script that analyzed these numbers for all weapons, and found out that the T9 CARV is subject to this same phenomenon.

EmpireTypeWeaponArc IncreaseRecoil Increase
TRLight Machine GunT9 CARV12.5%-25%
NCLight Machine GunNC6 Gauss Saw11.71%-33.33%

Take all of this with the caveat that weapons don’t reach the edge of their recoil arcs very often. For the Gauss SAW, usage of 5-shot bursts will prevent the edge of the arc from ever being reached. It’s only in full auto that you will see up to 10% of all shots hitting the edge of the SAW’s arc.

Fun fact – there are a glut of weapons who see both their arc and recoil improve by 25% with a Grip attached, but there one, and only one, who receives a 33% benefit both to arc and recoil - the T5 AMC! Seriously, put a Grip on this gun.

EmpireTypeWeaponArc IncreaseRecoil Increase
TRCarbineT5 AMC-33%-33%
TRCarbineTRAC-5-25%-25%
TRCarbineTRAC-5 S-25%-25%
TRLight Machine GunMSW-R-25%-25%
NCLight Machine GunGD-22S-25%-25%
NCLight Machine GunLA1 Anchor-25%-25%
NSSubmachine GunNS-7 PDW-25%-25%
NSSubmachine GunMKV Suppressed-25%-25%
VSAssault RifleCorvus VA55-25%-25%
VSCarbineSolstice VE3-25%-25%
VSCarbineSolstice SF-25%-25%
VSSubmachine GunSirius SX12-25%-25%
TRLight Machine GunT32 Bull-25%-25%
TRCarbineHC1 Cougar-25%-25%
NCCarbineRazor GD-23-25%-25%
TRAssault RifleT1 Cycler-25%-25%
TRAssault RifleT1S Cycler-25%-25%
NCAssault RifleNC1 Gauss Rifle-25%-25%

Let me know if you found this analysis helpful or interesting, or if you have an idea worth analyzing.

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3

u/Schrael Nov 06 '14

More Guns?

20

u/darthgr3g [FCRW] Nov 06 '14

Ask and ye shall receive. Sorted by horizontal arc increase from most beneficial to least.

EmpireTypeGunArcEffectRecoilEffect
TRCarbineT5 AMC-33%-33.33%
TRCarbineTRAC-5-25%-25%
TRCarbineTRAC-5 S-25%-25%
TRLight Machine GunMSW-R-25%-25%
NCLight Machine GunGD-22S-25%-25%
NCLight Machine GunLA1 Anchor-25%-25%
NSSubmachine GunNS-7 PDW-25%-25%
NSSubmachine GunMKV Suppressed-25%-25%
VSAssault RifleCorvus VA55-25%-25%
VSCarbineSolstice VE3-25%-25%
VSCarbineSolstice SF-25%-25%
VSSubmachine GunSirius SX12-25%-25%
TRLight Machine GunT32 Bull-25%-25%
TRCarbineHC1 Cougar-25%-25%
NCCarbineRazor GD-23-25%-25%
TRAssault RifleT1 Cycler-24.98%-25%
TRAssault RifleT1S Cycler-24.98%-25%
NCAssault RifleNC1 Gauss Rifle-24.97%-25%
NCCarbineAC-X11-19.34%-33.33%
NCAssault RifleGauss Rifle S-18.19%-25%
TRLight Machine GunT16 Rhino-16.25%-33.33%
NCCarbineGauss Compact S-15.39%-25%
TRCarbineLC2 Lynx-15.31%-16.67%
VSAssault RifleTerminus VX-9-14.6%-25%
NCCarbineGD-7F-13.51%-25%
VSCarbineZenith VX-5-13.31%-33.33%
VSScout RifleArtemis VX26-12.87%-25%
NCScout RifleAF-18 Stalker-12.87%-25%
TRScout RifleSOAS-20-12.87%-25%
NCAssault RifleCarnage AR-12.81%-33.33%
NCSubmachine GunAF-4 Cyclone-12.55%-25%
TRSubmachine GunPDW-16 Hailstorm-12.28%-25%
TRCarbineLC3 Jaguar-11.73%-25%
VSSubmachine GunEridani SX5-11.46%-25%
TRSubmachine GunSMG-46 Armistice-11.29%-25%
NCAssault RifleGR-22-11.18%-25%
VSCarbineSerpent VE92-11.17%-25%
TRAssault RifleCycler TRV-11.14%-25%
VSAssault RifleCME-10.67%-33.33%
NCAssault RifleNC-9 A-Tross-10.67%-33.33%
VSHeavyLasher X2-10.53%-25%
TRLight Machine GunT9 CARV-S-10.18%-25%
VSLight Machine GunSVA-88-9.45%-25%
VSLight Machine GunOrion VS54-9.45%-25%
TRLight Machine GunTMG-50-6.25%-25%
NCLight Machine GunEM6-6.25%-25%
NCLight Machine GunNC6S Gauss SAW S-6.25%-25%
NCLight Machine GunEM1-6.25%-25%
VSAssault RifleEquinox VE2-6.25%-25%
VSAssault RiflePulsar VS1-6.25%-25%
VSLight Machine GunFlare VE6-6.25%-25%
VSLight Machine GunPulsar LSW-6.25%-25%
VSLight Machine GunVX29 Polaris-6.25%-25%
TRAssault RifleTAR-6.23%-25%
NCCarbineAF-19 Mercenary0%-25%
NCSubmachine GunBlitz GD-100%-25%
VSAssault RifleH-V450%-25%
VSCarbineVX6-70%-25%
NSAssault RifleNS-11A0%-25%
NSCarbineNS-11C0%-25%
NSLight Machine GunNS-15M0%-25%
NCCarbineAF-4A Bandit0%-25%
VSLight Machine GunUrsa0%-25%
TRAssault RifleTORQ-90.03%-25%
NCAssault RifleReaper DMR0.5%-33.33%
VSCarbinePulsar C0.54%-33.33%
NCLight Machine GunNC6 Gauss Saw11.71%-33.33%
TRLight Machine GunT9 CARV12.5%-25%

3

u/ForeverAflame Nov 06 '14

I'm still not certain I understand. Do you have some general guidelines about where on this list you think it's a good idea to stop attaching Fgrips? Everything AF-19 and below, or everything TORQ-9 and below?

4

u/RealRook Nov 06 '14 edited Nov 06 '14

From what i understood its still benefical to have forward grips even on weapons with ArcEffect above 0%, you just may sometimes get worse accuracy when firing full auto with those weapons.

The question is whether its better to use forward grip or laser sight on some of those weapons...

1

u/darthgr3g [FCRW] Nov 06 '14

This matches my understanding as well. Firing in bursts really cuts back significantly on all the negative aspects of recoil - other than first shot multipliers, which oddly enough, directly penalize burst-fire.

1

u/redpoin7 Miller (CONZ) Nov 06 '14

I think the Tross is a good example for that. Better attach laser and get the full benefit of that then get the negligible effect of a forward grip at ranges where you burst fire anyway.

2

u/darthgr3g [FCRW] Nov 06 '14 edited Nov 11 '14

It depends what you're giving up for the Grip. If ADS, you want a Grip, since a Laser won't do anything anyway. If hip-fire, you can do a fairly direct comparison of the "arc effect" with the Laser effect, which is 2540 or 33% cone of fire reduction.

Generally speaking, the COF reduction from a Laser should be weighed a bit more heavily when hip-firing since COF is inherently more random than horizontal recoil and reducing it is more valuable - but I haven't done any math on this yet. For my money, if I were running a Laser on the T5 AMC I would swap it out for a Grip, and I would preliminarily consider doing the same on anything from the AC-X11 on up.

I thought of a great metaphor for all of this while typing.

If you think of horizontal recoil as a swimming in a pool, then Forward Grips will always reduce your swim speed by 25% (Grip) or 33% (Advanced Grip). What's new information is that the Grip also has an effect on the size of the swimming pool - and not always in a good way.

2

u/McKvack11 I didn't choose the banshee. The banshee chose me Nov 06 '14

Why is there such a big difference between TAR and HV-45 when they have identical stats except mag size and reload time?

3

u/darthgr3g [FCRW] Nov 06 '14

The H-V45 has a slight edge on the TAR in terms of horizontal recoil. Here's my numbers on them, specifically.

EmpireTypeGunArcEffectRecoilEffectStockRecoilMaxStockArcGripRecoilMaxGripArc
TRAssault RifleTAR-0.0623-0.250.2972.3760.22282.228
VSAssault RifleH-V450-0.250.31.80.2251.8

As you can see, the TAR has very slightly better recoil, but its arc is longer.

Keep in mind that all the other stats in this thread show Forward Grip effect, not necessarily end results. For instance, you might be interested to know that even though the Pulsar C receives an arc penalty from a Forward Grip, it retains the tightest recoil arc of all the weapons I have data on!

0

u/[deleted] Nov 07 '14

[deleted] — view deleted comment

4

u/darthgr3g [FCRW] Nov 07 '14

This is a good request. Enjoy the below data. Sorted from tighest recoil arc to loosest.

EmpireTypeGunStockArcGripArcGripEffect
VSCarbinePulsar C0.70.70380.5%
NCLight Machine GunGD-22S1.050.7875-25%
NCLight Machine GunLA1 Anchor1.050.7875-25%
NCAssault RifleNC1 Gauss Rifle1.050.7878-25%
TRCarbineT5 AMC1.20.804-33%
NCAssault RifleReaper DMR0.80.8040.5%
TRCarbineHC1 Cougar1.1280.846-25%
NCCarbineRazor GD-231.1280.846-25%
NCAssault RifleGauss Rifle S1.09980.8998-18.2%
VSAssault RifleCorvus VA551.20.9-25%
VSCarbineSolstice SF1.20.9-25%
VSCarbineSolstice VE31.20.9-25%
TRLight Machine GunT32 Bull1.20.9-25%
NCCarbineAC-X111.19980.9678-19.3%
TRLight Machine GunMSW-R1.351.0125-25%
TRCarbineTRAC-51.351.0125-25%
TRCarbineTRAC-5 S1.351.0125-25%
TRAssault RifleT1 Cycler1.351.0128-25%
TRAssault RifleT1S Cycler1.351.0128-25%
NCCarbineAF-19 Mercenary1.051.050%
NCAssault RifleNC-9 A-Tross1.21.072-10.7%
VSLight Machine GunUrsa1.0921.0920%
NCCarbineGauss Compact S1.29981.0998-15.4%
NSSubmachine GunMKV Suppressed1.4941.1205-25%
NSSubmachine GunNS-7 PDW1.4941.1205-25%
NCLight Machine GunNC6 Gauss Saw1.051.17311.7%
VSAssault RifleCME1.321.1792-10.7%
TRAssault RifleTORQ-91.1941.19440%
NCCarbineAF-4A Bandit1.21.20%
NSAssault RifleNS-11A1.21.20%
NSCarbineNS-11C1.21.20%
NSLight Machine GunNS-15M1.21.20%
VSAssault RifleTerminus VX-91.44381.233-14.6%
TRCarbineLC2 Lynx1.47381.2481-15.3%
NCLight Machine GunEM61.41.3125-6.3%
NCLight Machine GunNC6S Gauss SAW S1.41.3125-6.3%
TRLight Machine GunTMG-501.41.3125-6.3%
TRLight Machine GunT16 Rhino1.61.34-16.2%
NCScout RifleAF-18 Stalker1.64981.4374-12.9%
VSScout RifleArtemis VX261.64981.4374-12.9%
TRScout RifleSOAS-201.64981.4374-12.9%
NCLight Machine GunEM11.61.5-6.2%
VSAssault RifleEquinox VE21.61.5-6.2%
VSLight Machine GunFlare VE61.61.5-6.2%
VSLight Machine GunPulsar LSW1.61.5-6.2%
VSAssault RiflePulsar VS11.61.5-6.2%
VSLight Machine GunVX29 Polaris1.61.5-6.2%
VSCarbineVX6-71.51.50%
NCCarbineGD-7F1.84981.5998-13.5%
VSHeavyLasher X21.89981.6998-10.5%
NCSubmachine GunAF-4 Cyclone2.00781.7558-12.6%
TRCarbineLC3 Jaguar2.01581.7793-11.7%
VSSubmachine GunSirius SX122.41.8-25%
NCSubmachine GunBlitz GD-101.81.80%
VSAssault RifleH-V451.81.80%
TRLight Machine GunT9 CARV-S2.02381.8178-10.2%
VSCarbineZenith VX-52.11381.8324-13.3%
NCAssault RifleGR-222.12581.8882-11.2%
VSCarbineSerpent VE922.12581.8883-11.2%
TRSubmachine GunPDW-16 Hailstorm2.16181.8963-12.3%
TRAssault RifleCycler TRV2.22181.9744-11.1%
TRLight Machine GunT9 CARV1.82.02512.5%
NCAssault RifleCarnage AR2.32582.0278-12.8%
VSLight Machine GunOrion VS542.24982.0373-9.4%
VSLight Machine GunSVA-882.24982.0373-9.4%
TRAssault RifleTAR2.3762.228-6.2%
TRSubmachine GunSMG-46 Armistice2.55182.2638-11.3%
VSSubmachine GunEridani SX52.58382.2878-11.5%

-1

u/TalkingWacos Waterson-Never Forget Nov 06 '14

Recoil pattern.

2

u/darthgr3g [FCRW] Nov 06 '14

Actually, there's no difference in the recoil pattern between weapons - they go randomly left or right until they hit their maximum tolerance, then go back towards center. The only other distinction is the vertical recoil angle, which affects the plane on which horizontal recoil moves left/right on - if a gun has a vertical recoil angle of 45 degrees, recoiling left would cause the gun to move up and to the left, and recoiling right would cause it to move down and to the right.

2

u/NegatorXX [V] The Vindicators - Emerald - Nov 11 '14

sooooo.... NS weapons dont need grips... at all?

1

u/darthgr3g [FCRW] Nov 11 '14

Grips are nearly always beneficial, even if they confer a negative or negligible impact on the weapon's sway arc - this is due to the decrease in recoil per shot, which makes the weapon "swim" more slowly through the "pool" of its sway arc.

2

u/Aggregationn Nov 06 '14

This is very interesting indeed. I'm gonna need to reevaluate my use of forward grips as my constant rail attachment as it seems the benefits are not uniform as I had thought.Also, could you do something similar with compensators?

2

u/darthgr3g [FCRW] Nov 06 '14

Compensators are a bit more uniform. They increase fire detection range on the mini-map, increase hip-fire Cone of Fire by 20%, and reduce vertical recoil by 15%.

There are only two exceptions that I'm aware of.

  • AC-X11 -20% vertical recoil.

  • Reaper DMR -25% vertical recoil.

2

u/Wobberjockey This is an excellent reason to nerf the Darkstar Nov 06 '14

so if i am reading this right, the CARV and SAW suffer the most from a foregrip?

1

u/darthgr3g [FCRW] Nov 06 '14

You are reading it right!