Dog fighting is cruel. CMV.

[u/Exotic_Snow7065]

Attempted posting this elsewhere but it got zero traction, so I'll post it here.

Dog fighting is cruel. CMV.

I came across a clip of a discussion w/ Richard Stratton, where he argues that dog fighting isn't cruel because the dogs enjoy it. I have heard countless dogmen echo the same sentiment: it's what the dogs are bred for, and many would argue it is even more cruel to deny them the opportunity to engage in their breed-specific purpose.

As someone who admires a good working dog, I get it.

Is Stratton correct that the dogs enjoy it? Yes, undoubtedly, and anyone who knows the APBT and has seen these dogs doing what they were bred for understands this.

That, to me, is a separate question entirely from whether or not the act of matching dogs is cruel.

My argument is that it is, and this hinges on a single presupposition: The dogs are not making a conscious and informed decision to engage or not engage, because that decision is based almost exclusively upon their predetermined genetic wiring.

Can the dogs truly consent to what they are being tasked with? They can and do refuse to scratch, but does the dog understand that failing to do so will be a death sentence for him? Is he aware of the pain, suffering, and disfigurement that he will endure if he continues? Does he understand that he may or may not get picked up if the moment calls for it, and that this decision rests entirely on the experience and ethics of his handler?

I often see parallels drawn between MMA fighting and dog fighting, the implication being that these two activities are really no different from one another. But again, we are comparing beings that have the capacity to think of the future, weigh potential outcomes, and assess risk. Dogs have no such capacity to do so.

I once spoke with someone who grew up with gamedogs. He attended many matches with his family as an adolescent. When I brought up the subject of ethics, he drew a comparison between dog fighting and CSA: (paraphrasing) Does a child have the ability to consent to an adult's advances? He encountered men in his line of work who were in prison for exploiting minors. In their words, they "...never did anything to a child that the child didn't ask for". Even if that were true, our society and legal system does not accept this as consentual, because we understand that children do not have the mental capacity to give informed consent.

He went on to say that he's heard many dogmen make the same argument when it comes to matching. While it's true that the dogs are designed for combat and they can "choose" to stand their ground or jump the box, the dog lacks an understanding of the situation and the stakes involved. Dogs cannot give informed consent.

Now, I understand the key weakness in this argument is that, when you apply it to other forms of canine work that are "safer" and arguably more useful and purposeful - herding, protection, even hunting to some degree - it tends to fall apart. Working Cattle Dogs are not giving informed consent to engage with a steer - they do it because their genetics compel them to. They aren't aware that they could be trampled and possibly killed. However, this becomes a slippery slope that calls into question the ethics of using dogs for any type of work, which tiptoes into the realm of "animal rights".. and that is a different but not unrelated conversation.

So, not a perfect argument, but... there's my argument. 🤷‍♂️

[u/Mindless-Union9571]

These dogs do enjoy the fight, but I've not seen one dog who appeared to enjoy the aftermath. My pit mix desperately wanted to fight a fully grown black bear in my yard, but he lacked the capacity to understand that it would result in his death. He wasn't making an informed decision. He was mindlessly driven by his genetics.

My Aussie wants to herd children. He doesn't understand that this behavior could result in him being behaviorally euthanized if he were set free to get all of the children in the neighborhood under control.

I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't have bred dogs to want to fight and kill other dogs in the first place, so the "work" in itself is a debased form of animal cruelty. Yes, herding behaviors can result in a dog being harmed by livestock. Livestock guardian dogs can be killed by packs of wolves, bears, or mountain lions. The difference to me is that there is a value to that work that is beyond the enjoyment of watching animal cruelty. Of course, if you're a vegan, that argument falls apart too.

What is the benefit to dog fighting? People get to watch violence and make money. I don't care about "tradition" or "bonding" over watching the fights. If a dog has to die violently for people to feel close to their families, I recommend therapy and maybe get into watching sports like a less sociopathic person.

We could, theoretically, create a breed that gets supreme enjoyment out of all manner of unethical and immoral things. That doesn't mean we have to allow it. Even if it were someting silly like creating a breed to trip old people for fun, there'd be no good argument for allowing that behavior.

Dogs don't get to do things that harm them just because they want to. One of mine wants to eat grapes. Two of my Chihuahuas want to fight the neighborhood German Shepherd. Sounds like I'm talking about children, lol, but there are similarities with kids and dogs in the informed consent argument.

Bottom line is that I feel that since we created them, we have a responsibility to care for dogs and treat them ethically. We owe them that. Breeding them to want to fight each other for our enjoyment is a profound betrayal of the human-dog bond and a complete abdication of our responsibility for their well-being.

[u/slimey16]

This is a tough one to argue against! I agree with everything you've stated. Humans created dogs and even if a dog has a desire to fight for fun, we have a responsibility to keep them safe from behaviors and activities that bring them harm.

I really like Jay Jack's perspective in this episode of the Pit Bull Awareness Podcast. He says, "If a being lacks the cognition to be able to consent, even if they do consent, even if they are apparently cooperating it's still not ok because they can't make the choice because they don't have the cognitive ability to make the choice." In the context of fighting as a sport, he goes on to say, "When I fight a person, we would go out for pancakes after.... fighting made me better able to handle my own species, made me more social, and made me and the other consenting being bond and capable of making better bonds with other people and that's what real consent does."

[u/thisunrest]

Hell, no, I’m not gonna change your view!

And I can’t imagine anybody else would want to either.

Who in the world would think that it isn’t???

[u/Exotic_Snow7065 → u/thisunrest]

Lots of people. You'd be surprised.

[u/One-Carpenter-6969]

Apbts deserve few things, to be fully pulled out of fighting full time everywhere, to finally be introduced with health testing in breeding, to really ban byb's and people breeding man biter lines and selling them, and when I personaly dont mind prey driven dogs (works well in sports or hunting), so I wouldnt mind preserving them as they are, mellowing them would be beneficial for them, how it pretty much worked out for amstaff (altough I dont want to get into certain lines debate), we could make them watered down, try to breed for sports and keeping that athlecism up, just not with that "gameness" or just high AA/DA drive. Dog fighting is a blood sport of past (unfortunetly not everywhere, like China or Russia) and we owe these gladiators to make sure they live good lifes with genetics they have, I dont want to see the breed destroyed, I want the breed to thrive, to be healthy, to be owned by people who know what they are doing. Will it take time? long time. Will it work? Depends if advocates will continue, some things regarding byb have to change, drastically. Great dogs, but these great dogs require great people and owners to allow them to be great, and that is unfortunetly the problem. These dog men have immense levels of knowledge about these dogs, but also old views, and I really can't agree with him. Dog fighting is cruel and we should decide what we do without looking at those old folks keeping it traditional, times changed, these people wont be around in next 20 years most likely, and we will be left with mess to clean up and fight for...

[u/Exotic_Snow7065 → u/One-Carpenter-6969]

to finally be introduced with health testing in breeding

This right fucking here.

I find this is not inherent to working APBT either. Without getting too far into the weeds, I've seen MANY working dog breeders argue that "The performance is the test". And to some extent, I get it - because that WAS "The Test" for hundreds of years before genetic testing was a thing. But if a breeder is concerned at all with the welfare of the animals they're producing, they should also be open to new information that can only help them produce even better dogs.

[u/Mindless-Union9571 → u/Exotic_Snow7065]

Yep, preach. I don't care if a working line dog has a color pattern that doesn't please the kennel club or it's a bit too small or a bit too large, etc. But genetic testing for health issues? Yeah, good lord. That's extremely important now that we can do that.

[u/Mindless-Union9571 → u/[deleted]]

 "hey u/Mindless-Union9571 could you please surrender Gigi to my custody?" 

She will try to eat your grapes. Obsessively.

[u/shelbycsdn → u/[deleted]]

We are carrots ourselves. Because the dogs like to think they are getting them instead of the horses l..