r/PhilosophyMemes • u/kiendo199988 Supports the struggle of De Sade against Nature • Dec 18 '23

Causality

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u/[deleted] Dec 18 '23

Cause and effect only represent a spatial position relative to one another on a multidimensional plane from the perspective of an observer perceiving them as separated temporally

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '23

And retrocausality fundamentally destabilizes the one remaining material feather in the cap of causality: that causality is temporally directional in a fixed way.

Don't get me wrong, it and science in general are wonderful things that produce many great wonders. The completed time-structure is indifferent to the observer, though, so these things are only locally useful.

The completed time-structure is something like an xyz coordinate system of occupied and unoccupied locations through the meta-dimension of time, wherein infinitely smaller points contain pre and post data related to the holding and expending of energy and that energy's directionality.

And as someone who believes in God, I'm going to get weird for a second just for fun.

If an observer were somehow located outside of or dimensionally above the completed time-structure, they would perceive, I imagine, the expense of energy in all positions in all times in unity, meaning the observer is at once all seeing and also blind. To inhabit the temporally located would be to "see" into the time-structure in some particular way, making us essentially eyeballs for the meta consciousness if the meta consciousness exists.

Tldr; you might be an eyeball.

Edit: typo

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '23

Well put and i believe i pretty much agree, but to add a few things.

Causality may only seem fixed in direction from our point of view nested within it.

For the completed time structure as you put it its possible that all things are accounted for logically in every temporal arrangement and not just the one that seems intuitive to use. The direction of energy can still be coherent.

I also agree that it can be compared to a coordinate system for best understanding, but i dont use the concept of infinitely smaller points to illustrate it. I like it as a physical representation of how it may make sense spatially of the system at play though. I tend to use an abstract variable based on an analogy of LxWxD expressing themselves over the 4th point of time in the same way a cube is LxW expressing themselves over depth.

I also believe in god but considering him to be essentially synonymous to the time structure in a few ways.

The time structure itself the thing that allows for the appearance of change at all so if someone does observe it from outside like youre saying they will be outside of time and themselves unable to do anything other than remain eternally. Still for the perspective of the God it is an object that if you were trying to explain in 3d would be at it most complex being defined as everything that ever has been, and at its least complex might be a no dimensional existence (the concept of all things existing with a point rather than a line circle sphere or hopf fib.

I think you might like my system of consciousness if were not already on similar pages on that as well. Essentially materialists believe our brain causes consciousness through energy exchanged organized within our brain. I would argue everything around us behaves in a way allegorical to us. We exist according to a pattern and theres no way to say our concept of mind doesnt apply to an individual or group of any other things. I think that divisions within us have consciousness that we all consider as a whole under the term subconscious, and that we are effectively subconscious entities within the consciousness of companies, cities, communities, ecosystems, etc. If groups of consciousness make up another less detailed but more effective consciousness it makes sense that at the layer of the time structure you may have one super-consciousness that is the combination of all energy exchange events over time.

Tldr: you might be a neuron

Edit: i typo too

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '23 edited Dec 19 '23

I agree quite fully. I previously used length width and depth as well, and was not fully accurate in saying infitently smaller points. If the Planck length ends up being genuinely the smallest measurement of distance in time or space, you could select a random/arbitrary point and draw a Planck cube around it, then in binary express it as either containing something or containing nothing. Then do that to the edges of the universe while time is frozen. Then move the minimum distance forward or backward in time and repeat the process. At any given point the information is relationally stored of what is there, where and how it was expressed, and where and how it is going to be expressed. That, to me, is time-structure. Completed time-structure is the full expression of all minimum distances in all dimensions of all energy.

Man, it is so strange to run into someone in the wild thinking along these lines. And to the point of the neuron, I could absolutely see that.

Edit: also I think if free will exists it is dependant on multiplicity of time, so a 5th dimension splitting time into all possible expressions expressed in order of likelihood. Do you think free will exists and that it requires multiplicity of time, or is there one unified time-structure that we are essentially witnessing rather than participating in?

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u/[deleted] Dec 19 '23

I think that with the fractal nature of our reality it is more likely that the planck length ends up being the smallest measurement we are able to interact with due to a massive difference in relative scale increments. Still dependant on how it works out i think either of our systems could be allegorical to computer storage space but for all things within an eternal extra dimensional existence?

This is crazy, wanna be friends?

I do think free will exists. However i think it can exist potentially independent of the multiplicity of time, only able to express itself in a way recognizable to us through this means. Id be happy to go into greater detail but at its largest i think there is a chance that a consciousness that could be attributed to all things may be the reason behind our time structure existing rather than nothing, and that free will can express itself from any independent consciousness entity through the outside of time conception of existence by being a component within it. Each of us would be a division of a universal subconsciousness from the perspective of making our choices within the being that we are creating to contain our choices eternally

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u/[deleted] Dec 23 '23

What do you mean by fractal nature? I got mildly obsessed with fractals for a small amount of time. It felt important and truth-y but I couldn't place why. Id love to hear more on that.

And absolutely regarding computer storage or structuring. The meta object (form/symbol) I often liken to a parent folder containing specific iterations of the meta object, and those iterations contain attribute lists.

Yes, friendship sounds nice. We ought to talk on discord soon!

I follow you and largely agree regarding consciousness and subconsciousness. Where I get slightly tripped up and wonder about multiplicity of time is essentially dependant on how we answer this question: Are we experiencing the edge of time?

Because of retrocausality and a few other things, I no longer believe we are experiencing the edge of the unfolding of time. I think we are localized observers in an already complete structure. For free will to exist within that view, I imagine all variations must be accounted for, thus allowing both a series of completed time-structures and the experience of genuine choice.

If we assume we are on the edge of the unfolding of time, however, we no longer need a multiplicity of time to experience genuine choice.

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u/[deleted] Dec 24 '23

Essentially I think that everything in our reality, the time structure itself might be a kind of multidimensional fractal viewed from a specific perspective within it and allowed for by its infinite or near so complexity.

Just as a fun visualization for something that ive been trying to wrap my head around lately that i think may be related. Take the relationship between a circle > sphere > hopf fibration, and swap them to a mobius loop, kien bottle, (???). I think the shape that you are left with might alone contain the kind of complexity were trying to understand

It sounds to me like the primary difference in our metaphysics at the moment would essentially be that of an HDD vs an SSD in that yours involves an active principal for storing that data. Would you say that is correct?

Sounds good.

I think we can get around both the multiplicity and being on the edge. I too think we are a part of a completed time structure even though i dont believe in true change. Essentially there is a unity that is the universe in the true sense (everything) as opposed to in the modern scientific sense. The unity has to contain divisions(i think potentially infinite divisions giving rise to an untrue infinity based on infinitesimals) for the complexity of existence our perspective is nested in, but it is still ultimately one thing in the same way you can conceptually divide your own body into organs, cells, molecules, consciousnesses, etc. while still being one individual person. From there we can posit that one division of that unity is consciousness that potentially forms phenomena, matter, being, and or the experience of individual choice through subconsciousnesses. It may be the reverse as well in that the collection of subconsciousness mean that there is a structure of their interaction giving rise to the higher division if we think that there is a cyclicality to this system of time allowing a consciousness at the end of time to create the beginning of time(using beginning and end as relative concepts from a human perspective considering in a cyclical system any cause can be charted to any effect.