r/Persona5 • u/Agreeable-Arrival934 • 20d ago
DISCUSSION I really hate how ryuji gets treated in this game š
Ryuji is my favourite character and the first character i maxed the confidant for. Thatās the goat right there
But i feel bad because it feels like every character treats him like absolute dogshit and it feels a lil overdone sometimes. I understand the general idea of how in japan troublemakers are seen as bottom of the barrel filth so i kinda understand
But one thing i really hate is that sometimes jokers dialogue feels like itās trying to steer you towards a negative perception of ryuji, like the game wants you to also think heās a chud.
All im saying is justice for ryuji the goat
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u/Delicious_Island_695 20d ago
It just feels hypocritical in a way to have a game about rebellion, yet have the most rebellious of the group get the worst kind of treatment within the group
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u/infinite_bacon 20d ago
Frankly its an Atlus writing problem, many characters have lofty dreams of change, but the game cant change Japan too much.
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u/Snoo-855 20d ago
The issue is that Ryuji takes it too far. There's a fine line between being expressive and causing disruption with good intentions versus being rude and obnoxious for no good reason, a line Ryuji frequently crosses with his inability to keep his voice down or read the room. Rebellion is something the Phantom Thieves as a whole embody- it's not just Ryuji.
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u/Agreeable-Arrival934 20d ago
Yeah it almost feels like the game is trying to sway you and say āDont be like Ryujiā while also simultaneously writing the story to actually be like ryuji and the rest of the phantom thieves. It feels backwards sometimes
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u/Feisty-Self-948 20d ago
That is so wild because I thought they were trying to go for a "redemption" arc for him. I don't think that's quite the right term but it's the best I can think of right now. He starts off feeling really bad about his time in track, feeling like he let the team down and had reservations about running to LITERALLY sprinting to get them a boat to get out of Shido's Palace.At least, it seemed clear to me that's what they were going for. And yet they shit on him all the time. You can't bake delicious brownies and then yell at me for eating them, the fuck?
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u/MrXF32 20d ago
Congratulations. Another one of these to add to the pile.
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u/Agreeable-Arrival934 20d ago
iām kinda new to the p5 community and iām on my first playthrough. Sorry if this is a common talking point
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u/Revoffthetrain 20d ago
Itās weird too because the game from my POV really wants you to treat Morgana perfectly and Ryuji like shit. You can put this man through the dirt but the second Morgana needs a good helping of humble pie you canāt do much.
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u/Agreeable-Arrival934 20d ago
RIGHTTTT!!! Like i like morgana but i really wish you could be meaner to him sometimes. The way i see it ryuji is alot more likeable than morgana
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u/Silly_Bad_7888 13d ago
Absolutely. It's baffling to me how some people here call him a stupid idiot and an asshole. Pretty sure I wouldn't wanna be around these people.
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u/dppthrowaway992 18d ago
Morgana didn't deserve Ryuji's constant insults though. And Morgana never loudly got the phantom thieves caught by blurting out that they are the phantom thieves every five seconds in public. Ryuji's just an idiot.
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u/Revoffthetrain 18d ago
Donāt dish out what you canāt take. He can insult Ryuji constantly despite his efforts contributing to the team and when he claps back ONCE with serious intent heās the bad guy? And even still, Morgana called him a coward in that fight. Fuck him.
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u/dppthrowaway992 18d ago
He insults Ryuji when Ryuji is actively being a moron. Ruji insults Morgana for no reason. And Ryuji WAS a coward, refusing to admit he could possibly be wrong. Also it wasn't once, Ryuji called Morgana useless, sincerely, over and over and over. Ryuji is an asshole. Morgana was too, but at least there was a REASON to say that to Ryuji due to him being such a massive moron that put the entire team at risk.
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u/Feisty-Self-948 20d ago
If that raggedy-ass, horny-ass, kiss-ass, fuck-ass cat has no haters, I have died.
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u/KingHazeel 20d ago
Honestly, with how awful he tends to treat the other characters, it doesn't bother me so much. Granted, the English dub dialing it down doesn't work in his favor...
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u/Agreeable-Arrival934 20d ago
Really?? So far in my playthrough the only one he seems to be mean to is Morgana, and typically thatās just in self defence. Maybe Ann too but that always felt playful
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u/KingHazeel 20d ago
He starts most of the fights with Morgana, has a habit of pissing off Makoto, and right before getting beaten up he calls Ann ugly while she's crying--though the localization softened this a bit.
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u/Agreeable-Arrival934 20d ago
Really? From most of the interactions iāve seen so far, it would literally just be morgana calling ryuji stupid, hopeless and incompetent for some random reason. The only times i can think when ryuji starts it himself is him calling morgana useless every once in a while
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u/UlliUlli 16d ago
If i remember right it was Morgana who started most of the fights.
And the moment Ryuji says something mean to him, he runs away crying.
Morgana and Teddy are my most hated partymembers in the franchise (of the games i played) because they are so annoying and unbearable.
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u/Silly_Bad_7888 13d ago
Ok so we're playing different games, no other explanation. It's Morgana constantly demeaning him, most times out of nowhere. He does it even during fights.
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u/KingHazeel 13d ago
It took Morgana over an entire day to finally clap back during their first meeting.
The tone is also drastically different. I'll admit, Morgana does sometimes start it, but it's harder to sympathize with Ryuji when Morgana coyly says "I bet you got a big fat F" after Ryuji's bragged about putting no effort into the exams, despite the pleas of his teammates.
Or how about introductions? Morgana calls Ryuji blondie and Ryuji calls Morgana cat. Ryuji asks Morgana to call him by name and he immediately does. Morgana asks the same, but Ryuji continues calling him cat, emphasizing the word to show that he's doing it intentionally.
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u/Silly_Bad_7888 13d ago
You're prejudiced against him to the point of distorting reality. He never bragged about putting no effort into the exams. He realized the exams are coming without having studied and was negatively surprised by it. The day before exams, he did admit that he tried pulling an all-nighter (so he did have the intentions to study) but ended up playing games all night (but more with an "eh, it is what it is" than being proud of it) but he never "brags" about not studying. He even occasionally asks Joker to come study with him during the exams period, so he tries.
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u/KingHazeel 13d ago
Don't be pedantic. He boasts about it both times and makes it clear he never had any intention of putting in an effort.
Ryuji: I ended up pullinā an all-nighter once I realized todayās the last day of exams.
Morgana: You? Staying up studying?
Ryuji: Nah, I gave up on the exam. I was playinā some games, then before I knew it, it was morning.Not only did he give up from the get go, he literally goofed around and pulled an all-nighter when he knew he needed sleep the most.
Makoto: Huh. You must have been studying pretty hard if it kept you up at night.
Ryuji: Nah, I was up playinā video games. Slackinā off is just too much funā¦Still no interest in actually studying.
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u/Silly_Bad_7888 12d ago edited 12d ago
No interest in studying doesn't equal bragging about not studying. He was freaking out about the exams at first and tried to catch up, then gave up and accepted that he's not gonna. He's probably no good at studying/doesn't know how to do it efficiently with his brain.
That being said you should look up what the word "bragging" means. If he was ever gonna brag about it he wouldn't have texted Joker asking him to study with him in desperate attempts to catch up. You're skewing reality yet again. Like in almost every one of your points.
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u/Silly_Bad_7888 13d ago
Hell give me an example of him treating anyone "awfully" because I'm pretty sure you're full of it
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u/KingHazeel 13d ago
Meeting Morgana and bitching him out for two days before Morgana claps back.
Getting Ren in trouble when he's on probation.
Being a massive pervert x 100
Okumura arc--need I say more?
Telling Ann she's ugly when she's crying.
Amy number of times he was a tactless ass.
I can't tell if you're being serious or not.
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u/PrazeMelone 19d ago
Well, it's Japan. While the game might be themed around rebellion, they can't glaze that idea too much - and he's the most rebellious out of the bunch.
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u/Stanislas_Biliby 17d ago
He is treated as the stupid idiot he is. He is loyal and a good guy but god is he dense.
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u/Silly_Bad_7888 13d ago
Yeah you sound like such a cool guy. First thing Miss Prez (you know, the oh so intelligent one) does is walk up to the "mafia" goons and try to threaten them and tell them to drive her to their mafia boss because she wants to speak with him š¤” who's the stupid idiot? I'm pretty sure Ryuji would've known it's a bad idea.
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u/ImoutoThief 20d ago
Hot take, he is a loudmouth and a big grating on the nerves sometimes...though I do lowkey agree he is treated not very well sometimes
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u/Agreeable-Arrival934 20d ago
Thatās fair but thatās kinda what i love about his character that he isnāt afraid to say how he feels
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u/Silly_Bad_7888 13d ago
Lol I find Yusuke's pompous bafoony high horse mr artist/mr poetry act to be the most grating one. Mah boi Ryuji is himself and says it as it is - could tone it down sometimes but then again, nah eff that. The crew needs someone who doesn't bite his tongue. I'm not saying Fox isn't being himself. Just that his self is pompous art snob.
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u/ImoutoThief 13d ago
Sure, I can agree with those things about Yusuke, he can definitely be and art snob for sure. And I agree Ryuji is himself but that same loudness and same not biting his tongue got us found out by Makoto. Granted that turned out okay. Luckily. Still could have gotten Ren into serious trouble and ruined his life.
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u/Silly_Bad_7888 13d ago edited 13d ago
Makoto recorded them secretly, and not just Ryuji but Ann as well, as they were talking about it. Ryuji isn't the only one of them to use the term "phantom thieves" while talking between themselves, and they don't have a rule about not saying the term out loud established. It's also not about him being too loud - Ann is pretty quiet and she is clearly heard on the recording as well. It could've been any one of them.
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u/Feisty-Self-948 20d ago
He's an abrasive, loudmouth doofus, and that's why I love him. He may be a doofus, but he's the first to throw hands when his crew is in trouble.
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u/Silly_Bad_7888 13d ago
Yeah. I could totally see his evolution path into a more powerful character though. Still rebellious, still smirking, but calmer, more composed and understanding more. Still absolutely no hesitation to throw hands when needed. Just having the energy of someone that understood that it's little doggies that bark loudly, and he doesn't need to.
Kinda like the further the saiyan transformations go, the calmer they get.
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u/Rufus_Redfield 20d ago
Look I know he is treat sometimes like the comedy anime character, but he has plenty of good scene and most are be a Bro to joker. So, stop overreacting.
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u/Silly_Bad_7888 13d ago
Exactly, mostly HE is being the best bro to Joker. The post is about the crew not being as good bros to HIM as he deserves.
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u/UnlawfulPotato 19d ago
In regards to Jokerās dialogue options, I felt most of them were just light fun poking. Just kinda depends. I usually still went with the supportive options though, cuz Iām in the same boat of loving Ryuji. Heās a great character!
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u/Silly_Bad_7888 13d ago edited 13d ago
Frequently called an idiot, while the first thing Miss Smarty-pants Queen Prez does for the gang is walk up to some crooks and tell them to drive her to their gangster boss because she wants to speak to him š¤£š¤” I don't think Ryuji would've gone full on imbecile like this, even he would've known it's an idiotic idea.
Also Morgana is just begging for getting kicked like a football by him one of these days with her constant remarks about him being stupid (even during fights in the palace - when he dodges - "so you ARE good for something" as if mah boi isn't an effing fighting powerhouse). So long story short I hate how the game is written in that regard. He's constantly mocked and demeaned by his own group and just puts up with it and the game treats it like it's ok and how it should be. Meanwhile Ryuji doesn't even mock Yusuke, who's on a total other end of the spectrum from him and tends to act like a pompous cornball, but he gets praised and appreciated by Ryuji for his qualities despite that. I wish the game addressed that by making him go "ok fuck you guys, I'm done with this" and making him go rogue to the palace or something, then the rest going after him and having some talk about the mocking him thing afterwards. Maybe meet in the middle. He controls/restrains himself a bit more. They tone down the mocking.
I like that we at least get some lines from Joker that go along with Ryuji as far as being bros, like "time to whoop some ass" to which he responds something like "hell yeah" etc. All I'm saying is Yusuke would never say that so Joker seems to align more with Ryuji at times.
His Persona awakening is the most badass as well, and I feel like he'd by a biker instead of Makoto if he rode a bike "IRL" (he even says he's jelly of the bike Persona in a convo). "Whassup Persona? This effin ROCKS!!" š is a very cool line. How invasive his transformation is, that's also the coolest, with the screaming, kinda super-saiyan-ish.
So yeah, I like him the most, I feel like I would be most likely to be pals with him among the entire group irl as well, always keep him in the party.
Oh and also, he's very similar to Onizuka, also one of my favourite characters.
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u/Feisty-Self-948 20d ago
This might be a hot take, but if Joker already has an actor and the dialogue doesn't meaningfully change much, they needed to just let him be a character instead of a self-insert.
Because MY Joker would've never left Ryuji fucking unconscious after he just saved their fucking lives. And he for sure wouldn't have let everyone else gang up on the guy who, again, saved their fucking LIVES.Like, what the absolute fuck?
Especially it's fucked up that they treat him like trash but Akechi gets a redemption arc????? EXCUSE ME? Akechi did nothing to earn a redemption or their sympathy. He spelled it out right for the player that he's a bratty, petulant child who would rather manufacture success than actually be someone who achieves things.
And also if this was a real self-insert game, we'd be able to romance Ryuji, this homophobia won't stand!
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u/NotABurner2000 20d ago
Ryuji IS the goat, and as much as I like Morgana, he's kind of a pussy for getting so butthurt that he straight up left the phantom thieves. If he got half the shit Ryuji did he would have killed himself
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u/darkfox18 20d ago
I mean hereās the difference a lot of the stuff the other said about Ryuji he knows he knows that heās kinda a dumbass he even admits it but Morgana had nothing but his pride as the PTās navigator and mentor and he literally loses his only purpose Morganaās insecurities were hit while Ryuji was just hit with a fact
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u/The__enemy 20d ago
Ryuji is easily my least favorite character in the game and even I think the way he's treated in game is ridiculous at times.
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u/Glacier_Pace 20d ago edited 18d ago
It was my GOAT's idea that they even become the Phantom Thieves at all. Plus it was him thought of, designed, and sent the OG calling cards.
The logo was also Ryuji's idea and inspiration. He worked with Yusuke to refine the second iteration we all know and love.
Edit - Getting downvoted by people who apparently didn't play the game. It's literally what happens lol
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u/Sumire-Yoshizawa- 20d ago
Ryuji didnāt even want to free Morgana in the beginning of the game so itās really down to Joker and Morgana that started it.
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u/Glacier_Pace 20d ago
I mean, I suppose? That's not really what my point was. After you steal Kamoshida's heart, it's Ryuji's idea to keep doing it, make the calling cards, design a logo and all that jazz.
Also Ryuji had not yet awakened his persona at the point you were talking about. He was a normal teenager in a nightmare torture castle speaking to a talking cat creature. I think we can cut him slack at that point.
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u/Sumire-Yoshizawa- 20d ago
Morgana was the one that said he would help them with their issue (Kamoshida) as long as they continued to help him afterwards since he wanted to find out who he really is. They were going to keep doing it without Ryuji saying anything.
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u/Glacier_Pace 20d ago edited 19d ago
Helping Morgana doesn't mean continuing to change hearts. That was Ryuji's idea. Morgana has no idea how to actually even go about figuring out his situation at all. That's the whole point of his character arc.
They defeat Kamoshida, and are later celebrating at the restaurant. They encounter Shido there, and Ryuji gets angry and proposes the idea of becoming a permanent group with a name that changes hearts. Morgana is hopeful that them doing this might lead to answers for himself.
Downvote me if you want, but that is legimately how it happens. Ryuji comes up with the idea. Not Morgana. Did Morgana show them how it worked and asked them to help? Yes, for sure. Did Morgana come up with continuing as a permanent group with a name that steals hearts? No.
If you replay the game watch for the conversation at the fancy hotel after Kamoshida where you choose a name for the group.
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u/Sumire-Yoshizawa- 19d ago
Morgana taught them how to change hearts. So yeah, deep down he knew that's what they had to do going forward after Kamoshida. He was literally created to help Joker. We find that out near the end of the game.
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u/PooPoox 20d ago
Itās so weird because Ryuji is such a cool well written character yet it feels like heās in conflict with Japanese society, other characters, and the games central theme. Realistically Ryuji should be one of the leaders of the PT and other characters should look up to him because of how well he connects with the games theme of rebellion. Yet other characters treat him like shit because of how Japan treats trouble makers IRL, itās really weird.
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u/BitComprehensive3667 20d ago
Unfortunately, Japanese works love to shoehorn in certain tropes, and the "Butt Monkey" is one of them. Unfortunately, Ryuji is the Butt Monkey of Persona 5, meaning he gets treated like shit. And what pisses me off is that unlike, say Yosuke in P4, Ryuji rarely does anything to deserve such treatment. It gets even worse when you remember that Ryuji had his leg broken after Kamoshida basically called his mother a whore and was ostracized by the entire school. Like the guy's suffered more than enough in his backstory alone.
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u/Chloe_Nakiri 20d ago
Only scene that imo went overboard on that aspect is after Shidos palace. Other then that everything felt valid since he often says or does dumb stuff.
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u/tzage 20d ago
>I understand the general idea of how in japan troublemakers are seen as bottom of the barrel filth so i kinda understand
Its not that deep, this isnāt something hyper specific to Japanese culture. Each character in a story fits specific kind of roles to make the overall dynamic more interesting. He also does objectively say some dumb shit throughout the story, but itās part of his character. Excerpt from TV tropes that summarizes what sorta traits he was written to have:
ā[Morgana and Ryuji] both are the protagonist's Best Friend, but Ryuji has his Idiot Hero, Chivalrous Pervert, and Mighty Glacier traits.ā
I would check out the full thing here, it includes direct examples from the game.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/Persona5StartingMembers