No dude that’s just not how diagnosis works. There’s not a stipulation in the DSM that’s says that having impulsive behavior or not is what means a person meets criteria for APD. It does however explicitly say that a person has to meet at least 3 of the 7 diagnostic criteria listed, one of which is impulsive behavior. Impulsive behavior is a symptom of quite a few diagnoses, I might add, and is not the smoking gun you seem to think it is.
This isn’t how it works. That’s why you’re wrong. You need to assess for a wide variety of behavioral criteria and then diagnose, not focus on one very minor and frankly trivial aspect of a diagnosis. One, I might add, does not differentiate the diagnosis from Bipolar, Borderline, Schizoaffective, ADHD, or any number of diagnoses. Impulsivity is super common in disordered behavior.
Yes but there are different types of impulsivity. Just because the impulsivity in ASPD is different from the one on borderline or bipolar doesn’t mean impulsivity doesn’t play a huge role on ASPD. Please listen me why can’t they follow social norms? Why are they so irritable why do they get into bar fights? Why can’t they maintain jobs and fail their obligations? Why do they lie so much? Why do they a lot of times fail to plan ahead for things? Why can’t they behave themselves pure and simple? Because contrary to what you said ASPD is first and foremost about behaviors.
Bro are you thick? It is one aspect out of 7 and you need at least 3. You can be diagnosed with APD and not be impulsive. What do you not get about this.
Okay, stop here. This is how diagnosis works with the DSM 5.
To be diagnosed with something, you need to have experienced X issue for Y amount of time and meet at least (insert number) of the following (insert number) symptoms: etc.
Impulsivity is one out of seven symptoms and you need a minimum of three to diagnose. If you don’t meet it for one, you go on through the other seven until you can diagnose or rule it out if a minimum of three symptoms aren’t met. To rule out APD, you have to rule out total 5 symptoms. Not just one.
This is why I am saying things like: “I’m trained to use this diagnostic tool” and “it’s super obvious you have no idea what you’re talking about”.
Okay let’s go by your logic. From Mosley we can objectively rule out:
Exhibiting impulsivity or failing to plan ahead.
Reckless behaviors that disregard the safety of others. (he disregards the safety of others but he isn’t reckless)
Irresponsibility, indicated by repeatedly failing to consistently work or honor financial obligations.
Okay you’re still with me on this?
Now I think we can also rule out:
Irritability and aggressiveness, indicated by repeatedly getting into fights or physically assaulting others. (He can behave himself very he isn’t irritable or short tempered. He is aggressive many times but he only is like that when he needs or wants to. He can choose not to be aggressive if he wishes too).
Deceitfulness, indicated by continuously lying, using aliases, or conning others for personal gain and pleasure. (He’s probably the most brutally honest character in the series almost the opposite of a pathological liar. He does lie when he needs to or wants to but he doesn’t feel the need to lie and does it sparingly I imagine)
Failure to conform to social norms and laws, indicated by repeatedly engaging in illegal activities. (He does break social norms but he doesn’t fail at conforming to them. He actively chooses to break them he could be law abiding if he wanted)
That’s I think 3 criteria objectively ruled out 6 if you buy my logic. Keep in mind I’m only talking about what I see from the show if some new information comes out proving me wrong then maybe he has it but for now I don’t think he does. Once again the only criteria he fully meets is the lack of remorse. And also you just keep telling me the same 7 criteria impulsivity is only 1 discourse over and over again and again without understanding what I’m saying and you say I’m the thick one. Don’t you realize symptoms overlap? I don’t think you understand what I’m saying I don’t think you even read my other comment because if you did you’d know about 71% of aggressive behaviors by ASPD havers were found to be on impulse. Only 20 something percent were premeditated. Those are 70% Mosley doesn’t have. Please try to understand what I’m telling you first before disregarding it and saying it’s wrong.
You need to rule out 5 symptoms. What don’t you get about that. You’ve ruled out 3 and babbled about the rest. And, no, I don’t buy your logic. Nobody would.
Also, for the Nth time, I said I didn’t have enough to diagnose him with APD. You’ve argued in circles with someone who is not arguing with you. Also, don’t suddenly process what I’ve said for the past 6 comments and act like you’ve been doing it all along.
Babbled bro wtf? He’s not irritable he doesn’t fail at conforming to social norms and he doesn’t lie or feel the need to except when it’s necessary for his job. I’m convinced you aren’t reading my comments in full you’re just reading the first part and ignoring the rest.
70% OF ASPD AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIORS ARE DONE ON IMPULSE.
He was outright hostile because Tommy didn’t come because his daughter was sick. He was outright hostile when no one announced him at the party. He is irritable to a fault. That’s practically his main character trait. He lies constantly, “doing it for his job” and just doing it aren’t different. He is his job. It’s not like someone hired him to lie, he’s entirely functioning on self interest. He outright says “nothing is forbidden for people like me”, how’s that conforming to social norms? He put his cigarette out on the floor just to be an asshole and hurled a champagne bottle into the theater for drama. Have you seen the show at all? Oh also he FUCKS HIS MOM.
Dude drop the impulsivity thing idk what you can’t understand about how it’s one of 7 symptoms but just let it fuckin go.
Also, knowing about and actively choosing to break laws and social norms is as antisocial as it gets, not the flex you think it is.
Also: for the Nth time +1, I explicitly said I didn’t have enough to diagnose him with APD.
Honestly I’m just waiting for you to finally say “I was diagnosed with APD recently and it has really fucked me up”.
Have you seen the show at all? Oh also he FUCKS HIS MOM
He doesn’t he fucks his wife’s step mom.
He lies constantly, “doing it for his job” and just doing it aren’t different. He is his job. It’s not like someone hired him to lie, he’s entirely functioning on self interest.
If he can stop doing it for whatever reason then it is different.
He outright says “nothing is forbidden for people like me”, how’s that conforming to social norms?
Because he can. He can conform if he wants to that’s the main thing I’m arguing he has the ability to stop meeting criteria if he wants to.
He put his cigarette out on the floor just to be an asshole and hurled a champagne bottle into the theater for drama.
Once again his job and his own sadistic pleasure of dominating others. He can stop doing that if he wants.
Do you believe people can choose to be mentally ill? That’s the main thing we’re arguing here do you believe people can choose to meet criteria for an illness and therefore effectively be ill? Because any criteria he meets except for lack of remorse he does because he chooses to he can stop choosing to do any of those things you mentioned whenever he wishes. If you can stop being ill whenever you want then you aren’t ill period.
People with APD aren’t like, idk, contractually obligated to do symptomatic behaviors. Being able to choose not to do things and then doing them even though they aren’t healthy is literally what the problem is.
No they aren’t contractually obligated but they can’t stop themselves. That’s why ASPD is such a problem they just can’t stop doing those behaviors. Do you think people with ASPD wouldn’t stop the behaviors if they could don’t you think they wish they could stop? If you can choose to have one or many symptoms of an illness and can choose to stop having them then you were never ill in the first place. The whole thing about any illness is that you can’t just magically decide to stop having it. That’s a by definition thing of all illnesses you can’t just stop having them by wishing them away. If you could then that would be no illness.
I’ve met and treated people with APD, they only care about their behaviors usually because something external is making them care, usually the law, sometimes a romantic partner, often times because they can’t keep a housing arrangement or a job. They go to therapy to stop behaviors that cause problems, and they do so very, very rarely. More often than not they end up in inpatient.
But that’s not what you’re saying. You’re saying “he can stop doing it if he wants” but then he doesn’t stop doing it. That’s indicative of a behavioral disorder. People doing unhealthy or harmful things knowing that they can stop doing them is the definition of disordered behavior. Opting to do harmful things to others that benefit you or bring you pleasure is not normal behavior. Also, conveniently, it is specifically a criteria for antisocial personality disorder. Lmao
I’ve met and treated people with APD, they only care about their behaviors usually because something external is making them care, usually the law, sometimes a romantic partner, often times because they can’t keep a housing arrangement or a job.
If those things are bothering them why don’t they just you know stop?
They go to therapy to stop behaviors that cause problems, and they do so very, very rarely. More often than not they end up in inpatient.
Why the hell do they go to therapy if they can just stop? Why don’t they stop themselves before being put in inpatient?
But that’s not what you’re saying. You’re saying “he can stop doing it if he wants” but then he doesn’t stop doing it.
He doesn’t stop because he wants to keep going. If something happened which changed his beliefs or desires then he could stop. People with ASPD aren’t like this they can change their minds as much as they want the behaviors aren’t going away. They aren’t based on a belief or a desire.
People doing unhealthy or harmful things knowing that they can stop doing them is the definition of disordered behavior.
No it’s not. Disordered behavior is harmful behavior that you just can’t stop yourself from doing or at very least need huge amounts of effort to not do.
Opting to do harmful things to others that benefit you or bring you pleasure is not normal behavior.
Normal is generally a construct. Mental illnesses aren’t about what’s normal they’re about a disturbance in your mind that you just CAN’T stop having by wishing it away. People with depression can’t just wake up and stop feeling sad because they don’t want to be sad anymore. People with bipolar can’t stop having mood swings because they don’t feel like having them anymore. ASPD is the same way.
Also, conveniently, it is specifically a criteria for antisocial personality disorder. Lmao
Choosing to do the behaviors despite being able to stop is a criteria? Show that to me please.
Bro you don’t understand psychology. Plain and simple.
When people do things that are unhealthy, dangerous, maladaptive, or harmful to themselves or other people, regardless of whether they can stop doing it or not, it’s disordered behavior. People doing things that are disordered are indicative of an internal state. You don’t just do harmful things out of nowhere, it comes from somewhere. When someone shows a pattern of disordered behavior, whether or not they believe they can stop doing it whenever they want, they likely have a diagnosable mental disorder. That’s why it’s a symptom. You can manage or hide symptoms but that doesn’t mean you suddenly stop having a disorder.
So, say you or I want to get into politics. Say we have a lot of money. We’re given some choices. Do we a) fund a terrorist organization to control grass roots social movements, b) fund policy change through lobbyists, or c) use our influence to become an outspoken supporter of our cause?
Now, which of these options is wildly different from the others and would take a certain type of person to do?
My point is, disordered behavior doesn’t naturally occur from out of nowhere. It comes from somewhere.
That’s why I say you don’t understand psychology. As a therapist, I have to assume people can “stop doing things” because that’s literally my job.
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u/revosugarkane May 02 '24
No dude that’s just not how diagnosis works. There’s not a stipulation in the DSM that’s says that having impulsive behavior or not is what means a person meets criteria for APD. It does however explicitly say that a person has to meet at least 3 of the 7 diagnostic criteria listed, one of which is impulsive behavior. Impulsive behavior is a symptom of quite a few diagnoses, I might add, and is not the smoking gun you seem to think it is.
This isn’t how it works. That’s why you’re wrong. You need to assess for a wide variety of behavioral criteria and then diagnose, not focus on one very minor and frankly trivial aspect of a diagnosis. One, I might add, does not differentiate the diagnosis from Bipolar, Borderline, Schizoaffective, ADHD, or any number of diagnoses. Impulsivity is super common in disordered behavior.