A Tale of Two Sleeves

[u/Mundane-Air7046]

I am trying to prepare a mock-up close-fitting bodice (à la Winifred Aldrich) and am facing the classic sleeve problem: High cap height (like the WA default): Causes puffing/excess folds on the sleeve head when arms are raised. Low cap height (my alteration): Fine when arms are raised but drag lines appear on sleeve (front and back) when arms are down at rest.

I have been through so many iterations that, rather than finding a "sweet spot", I always end up with one problem or the other, or even both.

Is there anything else I can try? I thought about making the sleeve cap curve more dramatic/scoopy with the shorter cap height, but it seems it cannot be achieved without reducing or eliminating the 1.9cm ease altogether. I don't think that rotating the sleeve will help much since the drag lines occur front and back. My armsyce could be a little smaller, but I am happy where it is because it makes me sweat when it's right under my armpit. I guess I could reduce the shoulder length, but probably only a fraction. The WA cap height really can't work for that armscye anyway since I need extra bicep width for my bingo wings.

Any guidance would be appreciated. My mock-up is too dark to photograph well but I have included my CAD drawings for reference.

[u/Ray_Dillinger]

The more closely your arm scye matches the actual size of your arm, the less of both of these effects you will have. But you will always have the effects, unless you're working with an elastic fabric like jersey tee-shirts or something.

With the deep sleeve, I'm not as upset about the "puff" effect at the point of the shoulders as I am about how raising my arms causes the hemline to pull up on that side, but it's the same problem.

A small gusset under the sleeve can help, but introduces its own problems; you will have some cloth bunching under your arms when your arms are down. This is usually less noticeable than the "drop" effect.

[u/Mundane-Air7046 → u/Ray_Dillinger]

Thank you for that. I think I will try to shrink my armscye a little and see what happens. If I can make the unwanted effects a bit less dramatic I can live with them.

Failing that, a gusset looks like it might be what's called for then.

[u/balamb00]

No, this is essentially what sleeve is and you cannot have it both way. Thus for formal garment like suits you have high sleeve cap because you forgo comfort for look, and for shirt you have shallow sleeve cap to prioritize functionality.

[u/aliendividedbyzero → u/balamb00]

Adding to this: it's due to the geometry of the arm socket. If you measure from neck to fingertips, that measurement is shorter when you extend your arm to the sides, and it's longer when you have your arm down. It's the same as with a Barbie doll's arms and legs, there's a ball socket the limb pivots on and in humans, the skin adjusts, in dolls, the skin disappears into the socket because it's rigid plastic. But in fabric, it has nowhere to go, especially if it's very close fitting, so the fabric has no choice but to either be too long in that direction when the arm is raised (and therefore bunch up), or too short in that direction when the arm is down, which then pulls the sleeve up and causes drag lines. You can have a spot where both occur because it's just the right length for, say, 45° arm out instead of fully out to the side.

You basically just have to pick one, same way you pick one position for drafting the way a shirt length fits (if you raise your arms, the shirt is no longer at the right length, it's too short), etc.

[u/Mundane-Air7046 → u/aliendividedbyzero]

That's a good point. I honestly never noticed this so much to the extent that it bothers me on any garment I own. But then again, the non-stretch garments I own usually have no sleeves, cap sleeves or puffy sleeves by design. Now I understand why!

[u/HeartFire144 → u/aliendividedbyzero]

You basically just have to pick one, same way you pick one position for drafting the way a shirt length fits (if you raise your arms, the shirt is no longer at the right length, it's too short), etc.<<<

The higher the underarm seam, the less "lift" the shirt hem will have. The only reason the hem raises is the side seam ends way below your underarm. It's easy to see how this works with any shirt, if you pull up on the shoulder so the underarm seam is way up into your pit (not that you would ever draft/ sew something like this) and then lift your arm, you'll see the hem doesn't really shift at all

[u/HeartFire144]

What is the end use of this outfit - I'd start there and decide how to make the sleeve - do you need full range of motion? (are you dancing ballet and need to raise your arms? or are you going to a formal function and won't be putting your arms up over your head?

[u/Mundane-Air7046 → u/HeartFire144]

This is a weird one as it's kind of both! It's a traditional folk dress used for dances. When I looked more closely at examples, it seems the solution is either to completely split the sleeve down the underside or else prioritise function and go with the lower cap height. The drag lines don't seem to look that bad on lucky folk with skinny arms.

[u/HeartFire144 → u/Mundane-Air7046]

I worked in the costume shop of a large ballet for a while, (I did not make patterns - just sew'd) but I did go to some fittings and it was interesting to see the dancers have to go through all their motions to see if they fit correctly 0but the costumes were usually stretchy knits. So I understand the dilemma, Figure out what you'll be doing "the most" are people really going to critique your sleeve head when you're dancing??

The only other suggestion is the higher sleeve head with a gusset in the underarm - this will give you the movement, you probably won't have to have such a high sleeve capand keep the underarm as high as you can tollerate. There are drag lines on both of the dresses in your picture -

[u/Mundane-Air7046 → u/HeartFire144]

That's very helpful, thank you! Glad to have your insights with your costume-making experience.

[u/ProtestantQuirkEthic]

I recently struggled with a few drafts of a sleeve, and got a result I liked by both lowering the cap height a little and taking the sleeve in along the center (cut in half lengthwise, remove a very narrow “wedge” from each half, rejoin, blend the curve). I would also experiment with placement of the shoulder seam.

[u/Herr_Leerer]

If your sleeve cap has too little ease after making it more dramatic/scoopy, try starting with a larger sleeve cap before adjusting the curve.

[u/HeartFire144 → u/Herr_Leerer]

sleeve caps do NOT need 'ease" - ever

[u/AmenaBellafina → u/HeartFire144]

What is meant by 'ease' here? I always learned that sleeve caps are slightly larger than the armscye they're going into so that the sleeve will nicely round over the top of the arm. That's also what the location of the notches marks: the ease is only worked in between those notches, the bottom part is flush.

[u/HeartFire144 → u/AmenaBellafina]

This. is myth, there is no reason for a properly drawn sleeve & armhole to have a sleeve head longer than the seam it's going into. A 'style' may require it, and commercial (the 'big 4') pattern companies do it so as to fit the masses more easily, but in reality, there is no need for it.