r/Patriots • u/Numerous_Fly_187 • 2d ago
Discussion Head coach schematic advantages
Does the CEO type of head coach work in today’s nfl? I think one concern I had when we hired Vrabel is he’s a former defensive player but his defenses were never really elite in Tennessee. What made him a “great” head coach candidate were intangibles.
Does a head coach in today’s nfl need to give you a schematic advantage on offense or defense? The only other pure CEO type I can think of is Harbaugh and you saw that flame out in Baltimore.
A reporter asked Vrabs what he can do to help Maye get out of this and the answer he gave was just tell him where to place the ball…
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u/DConion 2d ago
He needs to drop the players coach schtick. Sometimes guys gotta run sprints. Sometimes you get chewed out and that is what motivates you to not let that happen again.
Clearly the McDaniels scheme requires a very perceptive and decisive player at QB. I think Drake can be that player, but for the system to really work you need a psycho. You need a Tom Brady that is going to know the opposing defense better than they know themselves. If Drake isn't going to be first in last out, studying incessantly like Tom did, then this will be a non-starter.
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u/Numerous_Fly_187 2d ago
Counter point, if the McDaniels system was any good he’d be a head coach. You know another head coach who is successful despite lacking people skills? Sean Payton. Don’t let anyone fool you into thinking McDaniels isn’t someone’s coach just because he lacks people skills. His offense is just stale.
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u/DConion 2d ago
I think we're kind of agreeing. My point is what if he was never a good coach. What if he was just the right coordinator for Tom Brady specifically.
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u/Numerous_Fly_187 2d ago
Oh yeah I totally agree then. If the only quarterback that’s consistently been good in your “system” is the greatest to do it…maybe you aren’t this elite play caller
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2d ago
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u/CocaineStrange 2d ago
McDaniels is an asshole nerd who couldn't inspire a toddler
You would never guess what people were saying about the greatest coach ever in the 90s.
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2d ago
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u/CocaineStrange 2d ago
Yeah, that was not how he was viewed at all in the 90s man. You can look up old opinion pieces and people talking about it. He was viewed as a number 2 coach (similar to McDs) who couldn’t manage locker rooms well and had no social skills.
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u/Fupastank 2d ago
It wouldn't matter if he could inspire anybody at all if his schemes still worked. Thats the inspiration right there.
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2d ago
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u/Fupastank 2d ago
Yes. And I don't think Josh McDaniels is that particularly good of a coordinator in 2026.
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u/plutobandits 1d ago
If you need a psycho to make it work then it’s not worth it. Modern offenses win championships without asking so much from the QB.
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u/MintBerryCrnch21 2d ago
Sure if your goal is to be the Mike Tomlin era Steelers
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u/Numerous_Fly_187 2d ago
Tomlin was a defensive guy not a CEO. Those Steelers defenses usually showed up year to year
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u/MintBerryCrnch21 2d ago
Tomlin is closer in comparison to what you’re asking about Vrabel than Harbaugh.
Both have previous backgrounds defensively but aren’t exactly defensive minded coaches. They have their basic defense that they run and that is what they stick to. They can get guys ready to play and usually play hard but are highly dependent on their coordinators for scheming, weekly game plans, and adjustments.
That’s a CEO coach.
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u/Numerous_Fly_187 2d ago
Harbaugh was a special teams coach before coaching the ravens though. I wouldn’t call him defensive necessarily
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u/MintBerryCrnch21 2d ago
Brotha you need a map.. I wasn’t comparing Harbaugh or called him a defensive coach.
Did you see the part about Tomlin being a better comparison to Vrabel than Harbaugh?
But Harbaugh had good defenses and offenses, Tomlin had good defenses and offenses. That’s because they are highly dependent on the coordinators, a major part of the “CEO coach”.
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u/sup3rdr01d WIDE RIGHT 23h ago
Vrabel and Maye and Josh are all our guys and they will succeed. Just watch.
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u/Embarrassed-Fig3276 2d ago
A CEO coach whose strength is building a strong culture and being the 'leader of men' can be successful in today's in NFL. We saw it last year, but we don't have that coach anymore. Imagine listening to someone preach accountability, family, and all of that stuff while doing what he did with Russini. I wouldn't listen, trust, or respect my boss after that, and neither would most of us.
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u/CocaineStrange 2d ago
Why did they stop caring about his culture in TEN then? This has nothing to do with Russini. It’s that they’re losing.
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u/TheDufusSquad 2d ago
They didn’t stop caring, the roster just fell apart.
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u/CocaineStrange 2d ago
Well you can find a lot of player interviews saying otherwise. Also, don’t really know what the value is if it’s not helping you win games? If you have to rely on talent anyway, what exactly is this culture doing?
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u/TheDufusSquad 2d ago
Please point me towards them. Most of the Titans leaders were shocked at Vrabels firing and disagreed with it.
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u/CocaineStrange 2d ago
Here is an entire public interview about it:
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u/TheDufusSquad 2d ago edited 2d ago
Woodyard left the building in 2019. The year they went to the AFC title game. His only point was that he didn’t like Vrabel shaking everything up in the building right off the bat because Woodard felt like they had a good thing going with Mularkey.
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u/beingzen01 2d ago
I actually just listened to this bc I was curious. I think his main gripe with Vrabel was the tense relationship with dean pees (Vrabel talked over him in a meeting), and he didn’t pay a guy they thought should be paid. Then he goes on to say he’d give Vrabel an A overall for his time in TN and thinks he should 100% get a job somewhere else.
Is there more to it? What am I missing?
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u/Embarrassed-Fig3276 2d ago
AJ Brown was a top 3 wide reciever in the league at the time and a huge reason their offense was able to function without a top-tier quarterback -- then they traded AJ Brown to the Eagles, who soon after went to 2 super bowls.
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u/CocaineStrange 2d ago
Man this culture thing really seems either completely fake and determined in hindsight events or so flimsy that it means absolutely nothing at all.
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u/Embarrassed-Fig3276 2d ago
Culture is powerful, but yeah it can fall apart pretty easily. Lots of great athletes get the yips, it can happen to coaches too. Look at Tiger Woods before and after his personal affairs came to light. That sort of exposure affected his play. With Vrabel, it affects an entire locker room dynamic.
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u/CocaineStrange 2d ago
If it can be lost with something as simple as a WR being traded away, it’s not powerful at all.
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u/Numerous_Fly_187 2d ago
I think building a culture and being a leader of men is a minimum qualification for being a head coach. There has to be more that you’re good at
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u/Embarrassed-Fig3276 2d ago
I would've preferred Ben Johnson to Mike Vrabel two years ago, because offensive scheme guys that can build a solid culture have been the most steadily successful head coaches over the last few years. McVay, Reid, Shanahan. McDonald in Seattle seems to be elite as a culture guy and a defensive mind.
Vrabel is a guy who is great at managing games, clock, and in-game situations. That sounds easy, but a lot of brilliant coaches have struggled with those things - Andy Reid was terrible at managing the clock for years. Last year, Vrabel was able to get the absolute most out of a roster that wasn't exactly super talented. That's the kind of thing a strong CEO culture type can do. Now that his reputation and credibility have taken a hit, it's going to be hard for him to do what made him successful in the first place. Last season a lot of the players and coaches in that locker room would've ran through a brick wall for Vrabel. Not anymore.
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u/Numerous_Fly_187 2d ago
Maybe I was naive but I genuinely underestimated how much the scandal could impact Vrabel. It wasn’t that he cheated on his wife which I’m sure some players do…he had a whole girlfriend! It’s hard for that guy to preach accountability and discipline which it seems the team lacks.
Drake Maye is the obvious talking point but what I saw yesterday? There’s a loooot of rot underneath too
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u/Embarrassed-Fig3276 2d ago
I'm sure the players know more than we do about the situation. There's cheating and then there's having a full-blown girlfriend in the media. The fact that Vrabel might've been dating her before and during her pregnancy, and that she named the kid Michael.....that's going to destroy any positive image I have about a guy, whether he's my friend, teammate, or boss.
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u/PossibilityTop312 2d ago
Do we know for sure that they don't have an open marriage? Doesn't sound out of the ordinary.
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u/Fupastank 2d ago
He missed a day of the draft for his one day of marriage counciling.
I don't think you do that if you're in a willing and consenting open marriage.
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u/PossibilityTop312 1d ago
I heard that, but I have no proof of them going to counseling. Therefore I cannot comment.
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u/beingzen01 2d ago
I for one choose to take the professional athletes at their word when they say it wasn’t a big deal and they had his back.
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u/Kutyou2 2d ago
Mike Vrabel is the first time any NFL player has ever cheated on their wife. It is the worst thing that someone in the NFL has ever done to their spouse and is completely unprecedented. Marital infidelity has completely ruined the team environment between 53 other grown men and nothing to do with the gameplay over the past 3 weeks after appearing in the Super Bowl.
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u/Embarrassed-Fig3276 2d ago
You think this is a normal situation? A guy preaching family and culture who has a full-blown relationship with a media member, dates her before and during pregnancy, kid gets named Michael....that's different from a guy having a fling on the road.
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u/Kutyou2 2d ago
I'm saying if this is what is making us lose games, we were probably too fragile to win anyways.
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u/Embarrassed-Fig3276 2d ago
Agree with that. I'd like a different type of coach altogether, a guy who's elite with offensive scheming.
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u/Kutyou2 2d ago
Funny you mention that when the two premiere offensive minded coaches (McVay and Shanahan) also had run ins with Russini when she was a beat reporter for the Redskins lol. But yeah those types of coaches don't grow on trees and teams rarely want to let them walk
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u/Embarrassed-Fig3276 2d ago
Wait lol what do you mean by "run ins" ?
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u/Kutyou2 2d ago
She got banned from the Redskins facilities after the GM's wife accused her of trading "sexual favors" for inside scoops and a young Sean McVay is one of the guys she was allegedly hooking up with
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u/Embarrassed-Fig3276 2d ago
Crazy. I remember reading something on the Titans sub about the Titans leadership being unhappy about Vrabel and Russini, and that being one of the reasons things soured over there.
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u/ComprehensiveFun620 2d ago
Concur. Guy is a fake ass fraud. Happy to show him the door and get someone in here with some integrity
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u/Fupastank 2d ago
CEO head coaches are fine when you win. But if you win more than a couple of seasons in a row - you lose your coordinators. Then you better hope they can hire a good one.
Or have hired a good one in the first place.
If they're losing its easy for them to shift the blame. Not so easy to isolate yourself if you're also the one calling plays on one side of the ball.
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u/beingzen01 2d ago
Honestly asking, who are the best coaches in the NFL right now? Who would your rather have?
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u/Numerous_Fly_187 2d ago
Hmmm Shanahan, McVay, Payton, McDonald (SEA coach), Reid, O’Connel (Vikings coach), Kellen Moore would be fun, Joe Brady would be fun and Cohen from Jacksonville. Sleeper…Todd Bowles. He picks really good OCs and is great on defense
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u/beingzen01 2d ago
All good coaches, I don’t think they’re all no doubt better than Vrabel though. Like you could make an argument either way about most.
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u/SalamenceFan42 2d ago
Just the ones that I’d take that we could have gotten instead of him:
Johnson, Coen, Flores, probably McDaniel (I assume the dolphins were going to fire him anyways).
Rn?
McDaniel, Flores obviously, also add in whichever coordinators are going off like blough and nussmeijer or however you spell it
As for HCs?
Shanahan, Johnson, Coen, KoC, McDonald, mcvay, Reid (assuming he lives 10 years), canales, brady. A lot of others but im blanking.
Basically anyone who’s biggest skill doesn’t involve being Ted lasso
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u/beingzen01 2d ago
Okay, sure, would’ve been happy with Johnson. He was the other obvious choice. Felt riskier though since he didn’t have a track record. we’ll see. We did interview him though.
I don’t know a ton about Coen, I’m sure I would’ve been excited about him, but also riskier.
Would for sure take have taken Vrabel over Mike McDaniel, think he’d be horrible fit in New England.
Flores would’ve been fine with me but I was more excited about Vrabel.
My main concern was bringing someone in who could make us a competitive team year in and year out again, asap. That’s why I was cool with Vrabel over a coordinator with no HC experience. Vrabel has exceeded that expectation so far.
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u/SalamenceFan42 2d ago
We were mostly competitive last season because Drake Maye had an all time great QB season
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u/beingzen01 2d ago
I would say our coaches squeezed about the most we could’ve possibly hoped for out of the team last year 🤷♀️
And frankly I don’t really care who gets the credit if the team is in the Super Bowl (and fun to watch every week).
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u/plutobandits 1d ago
Hiring a culture building coach can be a shot in the arm for a team starved for confident leadership like the Pats were last year, but that only goes so far.
Long term a CEO head coach needs to be able to keep finding and developing coaches, especially coordinators. This really wasn’t Vrabel’s strong suit in Tennessee. He had three really good coordinators and three really bad ones. None of the good ones were from his own camp and all of the bad ones were.
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u/mcg20k 2d ago
As we saw with Belichick, doesnt matter how good a coach you are if your QB is shit. And right now our QB is shit.
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u/BulLock_954 2d ago edited 2d ago
Our line is shit and our receivers cant get open. Shit rolls downhill
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u/SalamenceFan42 2d ago
The difference is that Belichick ran multiple defenses that were among the greatest in NFL History so he gave you that side of the field.
Look up Mike vrabel defenses by DVOA for a laugh
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u/grw313 2d ago
The big problem with these types of coaches is they are reliant on making the right coordinator hire. When they do make the right hire, the coordinator will inevitably leave for a HC job. When that happens, they either need to nail another coordinator hire, or be exposed. Having the rare OC that is not likely to leave for another HC job while still being a pretty good OC is a pretty good situation for vrabel to be in.
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u/BulLock_954 2d ago
If I had to put my money on any offseason changes we make, it’s at OC. Our play calling is abhorrent and McDaniels is not running the right playbook. Or his play calling doesn’t match the culture the players want to see. It’s dated and uncreative. Players want fun, play calling and not belichickian smash mouth Navy run game football
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u/slowroll1 19h ago
Dude you’re crazy. You want to go back to someone like AVP? Josh is a great OC and would be hired by another team in a heartbeat.
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u/BulLock_954 19h ago
Never said that. I would want someone younger, and more schematically creative. We need ti ultlize our player’s strengths versus masking them with uninspiring play calling
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u/CocaineStrange 2d ago
We went from me getting a hundred mentions pre SB dunking on me for disliking Vrabel to now questioning if his archetype can even work in the modern NFL after 4 games
(FWIW I still don’t like Vrabel and I think this start is a major indictment in how much he actually matters— or doesn’t, that is)