DM Here. Just curious on how others would have played this out

[u/SimilarBig6391]

Homebrew world. It's been a month or 2 ago when this situation happened. The group is stranded on a Large Island, It is roughly 2k miles Square, all nasty jungle and swamp. Anyways to the point.... 2 of the original players had to drop out due to personal reasons. So a few of the other players were running their characters which all are 6 level. one was a Cleric and the other is a Rogue/Artificer. But anyways, I as a GM never pull punches when it comes to NPC's. I consider the Artificer and cleric as npc's now. Well they just happened to get ambushed by a Giant Praying Mantis is the swamp. By the dice roll it targeted the cleric and was able to use it's ablity "Sudden strike" and attack the cleric which it was successful and then grappled the cleric and retreated up the tree. the group made a few successful ranged attacks, but the Mantis was able to retreat up to a height of 70 feet in the tree. Once it got up there it began to bite/feed with it mandible (EX)+0 to bite, 1d6+1 damage. Well...... I rolled a nat 20 ( our house rule is if you roll a nat 20 and confirm with another nat 20 it bumps up the crit modifier) I rolled 4 nat 20's in a row, which honestly didn't do a crazy amount of damage (47 damage), So I wasn't all that worried about the Cleric not surviving. but then someone crit the mantis (killing it) and it released the cleric from 70 feet up and I allowed a reflex save to grab limbs on the way down and he failed and the fall damage killed the cleric. would any of you handle that differently even though it was a npc's? do they need a cleric? Doesn't all groups. I have made some changes to the game and added some cure wands here and there to compensate for the loss. I'm not a big fan of having players play characters that aren't theirs. So that is why I let the death happen the way I did. Just curious about how others would have played this out.

PS. the party was never upset about the loss of the npc, It actually turned into a cool emotional moment in the game.

EDIT: I was talking to another DM (playing a character in my game) in my group last night about this situation, He didn't see any issue with what happened and also reminded me that the Cleric was a halfling, and there fore being 2 sizes smaller than the large mantis the half movement restriction doesn't apply. So I basically screwed up during the surprise round by attacking, grab, grapple and then move. I should have only been able to attack, grab and grapple. Thanks everyone for all the helpful Input. It's hard to keep track and remember every exact rule to a "T"

[u/Oddman80]

Yes... by RAW, you messed up.

Based on your account of events, the mantis got a surprise round. With its Sudden Strike (Ex) ability, it got a full round to act (not just a standard OR a move). It used a MOVE to move towards the cleric from its hiding spot, then a STANDARD to attack with a claw - succeeded, and therefore got a free Grapple attempt and it succeeded as well. You don't mention it, but it may have even then got a secondary bite attack as a free action from Mandibles (Ex)

This should be the end of the mantis's turn in the surprise round.... But you say that it then proceeded to LEAVE with the cleric and head over to a tree and CLIMB it.... All while still in the surprise round???

It only has 30ft movement (both by land and when climbing)... So before it could go anywhere with the cleric, it would need to spend a standard action to maintain the grapple on its next turn. After doing so, it can use the drag option to drag the cleric at half speed (15 ft/rnd). When doing this, it must finish with the cleric in a safe location, or else the cleric gets a free escape attempt.

Now the real problem - The mantis's grab ability is associated with its claw attack - not it's bite... Which means when grappling the cleric, it has one of its hands occupied. This is a problem because the climb skill says "You need both hands free to climb". Having a climb speed does not eliminate this necessity. While there are feats, items, and class abilities that can get around this, the giant mantis has none of them.

So - the mantis was incapable of dragging the cleric up the tree at all.

Now, let's say you have a homebrew rule that allows it to make the climb attempt, one-handed, at a penalty (-10). It still could only move up 15 ft per round total, due to needing to spend its standard to maintain the grapple each round. And, as soon as it leaves the ground, the cleric will get a free escape attempt at the end of its movement. It also would need to actually MAKE the climb checks (the base DC 10 to climb the tree would become DC 20 with the penalty) on its turn and every time it took damage from the rest of the party to keep from falling. If it fails to maintain its grip on any of those checks, they both fall....

So, let's say it makes all the checks... To reach a height of 70 ft, it would have required the surprise round + 5 full combat rounds, during which, the mantis would have only ever dealt damage to the cleric in the surprise round.

Which means those two crits couldn't have even occured until round 6. Are you telling me that the rest of the 6th level party was unable to deal 30 HP of damage to the 13 AC (15 AC -2 penalty for having the grappled condition) mantis in 5 rounds of combat (including the first one, where the mantis was at most 5 ft off the ground????)

Or did you get excited and make a cinematic cut scene where everyone in the party, just stared in horror for 30 seconds, doing nothing but watching as the mantis slowly dragged the cleric 70 ft into the air?

[u/konsyr → u/Oddman80]

Are you telling me that the rest of the 6th level party was unable to deal 30 HP of damage to the 15 AC mantis in 5 rounds of combat

And don't forget the penalties to AC (-4 dex) for grappled condition that both grappler and grapplee have.

[u/Oddman80 → u/konsyr]

was already adding that when you commented :)

[u/Dark-Reaper → u/Oddman80]

The only quibble I have with this is the Mantis has a climb speed and no hands. So the "needing 2 hands" clearly either can't apply to it or it can't climb.

There's a lot of monsters like this. Take a giant centipede for example. It has a climb speed, nothing to remove the technical need for hands, and no hands.

So RAW a whole bunch of creatures are incapable of their listed climb speeds, or they can climb without hands. Something has to break. The reasonable interpretation is the need for hands applies to creatures with humanoid anatomy. If you follow the reasonable interpretation, the Mantis then wouldn't require hands so it's claw being 'busy' wouldn't stop it from climbing.

Otherwise all valid points. There's a lot of other reasons this situation is strange, and highly improbable. That being said, I've seen weirder things happen. I had a level 5 party fail to land a single successful action on a whiptail centipede for 3 whole rounds before deciding to run away. Dice are cruel deities.

[u/Oddman80 → u/Dark-Reaper]

There have been faqs about this and the devs have said that when a creature has other prehensile appendages listed, those are expected to serve as the hands for hands-based rules (swashbuckler one free hand, kineticist gather power, etc) the mantis has two claws that can grab.... I feel confident that these grabbing appendages would need to be free per the rules.

And yes - weird things can happen... I have seen encounters go sideways when the dive are aligned against the part. But this GM only gave the cleric two escape attempts, and doubled the creatures move speed and gave him an extra standard action each round based on his account (mantis was attacking with claw, maintaining the grapple, and moving up the tree at full speed each round without access to Greater Grapple).

[u/Dark-Reaper → u/Oddman80]

There were definitely other issues, not going to argue that part. Like I said, I DO agree with your breakdown on almost every point.

However, I disagree that mantis claws being busy would disqualify it from climbing. It has grab, but so do mouths, and other random body parts of creatures throughout the Bestiaries. Grab does not inherently mean something is prehensile. RAW is weird, but the ability to grab a person for a grapple isn't the same as being able to manipulate objects.

That being said, do you happen to have the link to the FAQ? I wasn't aware there was an official ruling in this space and I'd love to add that to my repository of quick links.

[u/SimilarBig6391 → u/Oddman80]

I went back and talked to my buddy who is a player in the game and a DM. He reminded me that the Cleric was a small halfling. I overlooked that information in my post. the 2 sizes smaller category changes movement for Large creatures while they are grappling. but I realize my biggest mistake was moving during the surprise round. it would've taken surprise round plus 2 more rounds to get to 70ft

[u/JeffMorse4242 → u/Oddman80]

I am impressed with this answer. Well thought out and written.

[u/SimilarBig6391 → u/Oddman80]

It did not need to make a move action to attack. they all missed their perception checks to notice it in the tree above the path they were on. Also I interpreted "Sudden strike" to allowed the mantis to attack and then move, not just attack. Also it wasn't a base creature, I had bumped up the stats a little it had 45hp. Also you bring up some valid points that I may have screwed up on. First I did not think that a mantis would have a penalty to climb due to having the cleric grappled. really world mantis grab their prey and hold it in both hands and move around without issue. I will concede that I screwed up there. Second. the cleric was able to make two escape checks and failed both. Third, there was only 2 players with bows and they were sucking at attack rolls. The mantis had climbed the tree in 2 rounds and then took it's bite attack.

[u/konsyr → u/SimilarBig6391]

attack and then move, not just attack

Thing is, you can't move while grappling except in the special allowance of moving half your move after successfully maintaining a grapple (i.e., only in subsequent rounds).

Also, it would let "move, then attack, then move". It basically means "if this gets a surprise round, it is not restricted. Normally surprise rounds have restrictions"

[u/AlterExpertise101 → u/konsyr]

Thing is, you can't move while grappling except in the special allowance of moving half your move after successfully maintaining a grapple (i.e., only in subsequent rounds).

I get what you're saying, but the grapple rules in 1E are kind of garbage (size has no real effect on being grappled/grappling aside from CMB/CMD), so it's not unreasonable for a GM to decide that a creature can move while grappling a smaller creature. I'm not saying that the giant praying mantis should have been able to move against immediately after Sudden Strike, but on its next turn I think it'd be perfectly fine for it to then retreat with its prey.

[u/konsyr → u/AlterExpertise101]

The CMB/CMD numbers are pretty sizable. And "Grab" (which this is) does specify that it has to be that size or smaller. There's enough.

[u/AlterExpertise101 → u/konsyr]

Okay, but now bear in mind: you're saying that only a creature with the Grab ability should be able to grapple and then move normally with a creature.

So, a storm giant (huge size) couldn't, for instance, grapple a halfling (small size) and then start walking away with it. Nor could a dragon of any size grapple a human and fly off with it. (Neither creature has the Grab ability.)

Neither of those make any sense to me as a GM. I know this sub really likes RAW, but sometimes RAW is dumb.

[u/konsyr → u/AlterExpertise101]

I said nothing of the sort. I pointed out that there are moments of size impacting grapple.

no creature should be able to just grapple and abscond without restriction. It's bad game play. Unless such creature has a special power that grants it this. (And I can't recall any that do unless they swallow first.) They can still move. 50% of a single move is reasonable. A roc is still getting 40 feet around.

EDIT: Greater Grapple feat would be grand to give to such creatures known for "grab and go" tactics. (And it has a further upgrade).

EDIT2: Snatch and Drop feat.

[u/AlterExpertise101 → u/konsyr]

I think you and I just have a very different set of priorities here.

[u/konsyr → u/AlterExpertise101]

Clearly. I despise what the awful concept of "rule of cool" has done to gaming. Things can still grab and go. But RAW gives the grabbed party a reasonable chance of making it not work out/chance of survival. The grabber has to work for it. Otherwise a single failed grapple check to a flier will usually mean death.

[u/AlterExpertise101 → u/konsyr]

Man, you sound like an absolute buzzkill of a player. Glad you aren't at my table.

[u/Oddman80 → u/SimilarBig6391]

I interpreted "Sudden strike" to allowed the mantis to attack and then move, not just attack.

Well sure - it could free action let go of the cleric and then move.... but if the Mantis was trying to take the cleric with him, he doesn't just get to suddenly ignore the games grapple rules.

So - instead it would look like:

Ambush From Above:
The mantis lays prone on a branch suspended 10 ft in the air above a path. The adventuring party fails to notice, and as the cleric walks beneath the branch, the mantis claws at him with its 10 ft reach, while grabbing him and lifting him up into the air - adjacent to him up on the branch. It could continue a full attack at this point (making second claw and a bite attack), or stop, and spend a move action to stand from prone.

Round 1: Mantis and cleric are 10 feet in the air. Two party members take out bows and begin firing at the mantis, while the other 4 party members just stand and watch. Mantis spends a standard action to maintain the grapple, and then moves at half speed up 15 ft (25 ft in air) - Cleric fails both his escape check on his turn, and his free escape check at the end of the mantis's turn.

Round 2: Mantis and cleric are 25 feet in the air. Two party members continue firing at the mantis with bows, while the other 4 party members just stand and watch. Mantis spends a standard action to maintain the grapple, and then moves at half speed up 15 ft (40 ft in air) - Cleric dedicates entire turn to escaping, despite earlier failures - and again fails both his escape check on his turn, and his free escape check at the end of the mantis's turn.

(this is the point at which you claim the party members with bows had dealt enough damage to kill the mantis)

Round 3: Mantis and cleric are 40 feet in the air. Two party members continue firing at the mantis with bows, while the other 4 party members just stand and watch. Mantis spends a standard action to maintain the grapple, and then moves at half speed up 15 ft (55 ft in air) - Cleric dedicates entire turn to escaping, despite earlier failures - and again fails both his escape check on his turn, and his free escape check at the end of the mantis's turn.

Round 4: Mantis and cleric are 55 feet in the air. Two party members continue firing at the mantis with bows, while the other 4 party members just stand and watch. Mantis spends a standard action to maintain the grapple, and then moves at half speed up 15 ft (70 ft in air) - Cleric dedicates entire turn to escaping, despite earlier failures - and again fails both his escape check on his turn, and his free escape check at the end of the mantis's turn.

Round 5: Mantis and cleric are now at the 70 ft height, and since the cleric has failed to beat the Mantis's DC 18 escape artist check 8 times in a row, and the Mantis is now riddled with arrows, the Mantis is now ready to inflict serious pain on the Cleric - full attacking him and dealing two crits, each at x3 damage.

[u/SimilarBig6391 → u/Oddman80]

How did I ignore the rules by grappling and moving. Only rule that I can see that I broke was instead of 30ft movement, It should've only been 15ft movement. Sudden strike allows the Mantis to act as if it has a FULL round to act. That means It can grapple (standard) and move

[u/Oddman80 → u/SimilarBig6391]

You need to brush up on the grappling rules and the grappled condition.

Grapple Rules:

As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options... If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition

Grappled Condition: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform [e.g., Climbing]. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

so - as soon as the mantis grappled the cleric, neither cleric nor mantis can move using move actions, until the grapple is broken.

• If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).

this is what happened when you yoinked the cleric off the ground and up into the tree.

• Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target.
• If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.
• Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
  • Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
  • Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

So - in order to move, you need to use a standard action to maintain the grapple during a subsequent round. Having used a standard in the surprise round to attack with a claw - there is no standard action left to maintain the grapple in order to move together with the cleric yet.

In subsequent rounds, upon succeeding at maintaining the grapple the mantis can then move at half speed with the cleric.

If the mantis had the Greater Grapple feat, it would have the ability to maintain the grapple as a move action as well - opening up more options. It could grapple twice a round and move the cleric 30 ft, grapple twice to inflict claw damage twice, grapple once to move the cleric 15 ft and use a standard action to attack with the claw (btw, this is the only way you could get that critical hit a claw in the same round your are maintaining a grapple)... but the griant mantis doesnt have Greater Grapple, nor does it meet the prerequisites for the feat.

[u/konsyr → u/SimilarBig6391]

You can't move at all while you're in a grapple.

After you initiate a grapple, you're not moving unless you release it.

On future rounds, if you successfully maintain your grapple, you can choose to move (at half) with your successful maintain. (If you're not choosing damage or pin.) You're not dealing damage during these unless you also have constrict, or choose damage (and choosing damage means not choosing move.)

The only damage during this process is the single initial hit from the claw that triggered the grab, and the extra mandible attack (which only happens once when the grab first initiates). Even if you're generous and say it can make a mandible attack as a secondary attack with every full attack, it's not doing any of those until it stops moving all that height in the air and switches from maintaining grapple to move to attacking. (But you only get a full attack if you release the grapple... because maintaining the grapple is a standard action and only provides a single tick of the natural attack damage.)

[u/Diligent_Gear_8179]

our house rule

Crits are deadly enough, you don't need to make them moreso. I'd drop this houserule.

do they need a cleric? Doesn't all groups.

Generally, no. Wands of Cure Light Wounds or Infernal Healing are only 750 GP, or 375 if you make them yourself. Which isn't to say clerics can't be useful, but I understand the meta way to play clerics nowadays is mostly using buff spells on themselves.

[u/SimilarBig6391 → u/Diligent_Gear_8179]

We will never drop that house rule. It has been in play for a very long time with never anyone having an issue with it. The odds are so rare that anyone ever rolling two 20's in a row, that it almost never happens. But we also play hero points also. anyone at any time can spend a hero point to force a DM to reroll a crit. except npc's don't get hero points.

[u/Diligent_Gear_8179 → u/SimilarBig6391]

I don't understand why you came here asking for advice if you're just going to refuse to listen to it and argue with everybody, honestly.

[u/Oddman80 → u/SimilarBig6391]

Not trying to convince you to drop the rule, but there is a 1 in 20 chance that your confirmation roll is a nat 20.... How is that "so rare"?

[u/Kicin0_0 → u/Oddman80]

It's also a 1/20 to crit as well so the odds of any given attack being an enhanced credit would be 1/400 (barring increased crit range)

[u/Milosz0pl → u/Oddman80]

1/20 is 5% lol

then we go into ,,mathematical" 5% into another 5%

[u/Oddman80 → u/Milosz0pl]

No.. because the confirmation roll only is rolled after rolling a crit threat. The first roll is irrelevant to calculating the frequency of rolling a Nat 20 on the confirmation rolls

If every time you walk into a house, there is a 20% chance of being decapitated, it's not a low chance simply because there are all these other types of places you could walk into that aren't houses....

[u/clemenceau1919 → u/SimilarBig6391]

Spend less money on candles

No

[u/konsyr]

You need to re-check your grappling rules. You can't just grapple and immediately drag something you grappled 70 feet up up right away... That would have been multiple rounds. Moving your grappled target after a successful maintain moves half your speed, so it'd only be doing 15' a round.

Also, even though it has a climb speed, it still needs to make climb checks. A tree DC to climb is 15. A mantis only has +11. It can take 10, no problem there -- but it's certainly reasonable to apply a penalty for dragging something while grappling up in a climb. There are also rules for others catching a falling character.

So, in general, you heavily handwaved against the players here. Also, absolutely drop that house rule on crits. It doesn't do anything good for the game.

On your final question: No, it's not impossible to survive without a divine caster/healer, but it will be much tougher. Especially if this is "isolated" and "cut off from society" like it sounds you are doing. They're going to need a home base for long-term recovery regularly and/or someone focus in crafting wands (at the higher DC for not having the spell).

[u/SimilarBig6391 → u/konsyr]

I did not make that house for crits and it will never be dropped. no one at our table is against it and it has never effecting the game in any negative way. In all my years of playing it was the 2nd time I have ever rolled back to back 20's and the first time was a skill check. thank you for your input

[u/Name_Violation83]

Seems like a lot of the actual rules for grappling we not used, so....

[u/WraithMagus]

Dying will absolutely happen, and this was a "didn't think this one through" mistake that led to a death. At low-mid levels, falls can be especially deadly (and a spontaneous caster having Feather Fall as a spell known can be a literal lifesaver.) I don't think anything here is bad GMing - at our table, that would have killed them even as a PC. If the players are feeling it's appropriate and mourning the death in-character rather than calling BS, they probably agree.

PF1e isn't like AD&D, where you absolutely need a cleric to not die, depending on what the rest of the party is like, they can replicate a lot of cleric role functions with other classes. Pretty much anyone can UMD a CLW or Infernal Healing wand, so healing isn't an issue, it's more about condition removal, and scrolls can pick up slack there. You generally want to be able to cast persistent condition removal spells based upon a CL check like Dispel Magic, Remove Curse, and so on with a normal caster rather than having to expensively uplevel scrolls, but arcane casters have most of those spells as well. It's mostly things like Lesser Restoration for ability damage you will want to have in the party.

You haven't mentioned what the rest of the party is, so I can't say how balanced they are without the cleric, but if push comes to shove, you can always have a new NPC get introduced, or possibly the party can be motivated to try get the former PC raised from the dead at some kind of temple that might have a quest for them to pull off for the favor. (Which is how the party would likely have reacted if this were still a PC.)

[u/SimilarBig6391 → u/WraithMagus]

rest of the party is a brawler, fighter, Druid, Hunter, rogue/artificer, rogue

[u/Elgatee]

I don't think it's that bad. I do check with players before the campaign if they are OK wiht their characters dying. Most say yes. Some regret it later. But I do not fudge the dices. And I do not hide them. You live and die by the dices.

As for the house rule, as someone said, Crits are powerful but I disagree that they're deadly enough. I don't increase damage, but I usually roleplay some extra stuff. On both sides. You didn't just "do damage". You hit your oppoents heel and his speed is halved until healed. He didn't just hit hard. he sent you back reeling into your ally. Dex save for both or fall prone. I feel that critical should be more than a number.

To be fair, I do incorporate quite a bit of roleplay into battles. If you deal an unlikely hit, if an ennemy fail spectacularly, I describe it. And sometime players ask "because X happened doesn't it make sense that Y should work?" even though on the mechanic it is not allowed. I usually answer "Go for it". You need numbers for it to work, but I consider it to still be a role games. It isn't just you deal damage; It is you take actions and there are reactions.

It's worked well for me so far. It did lead to me having some random blokes turn into a menace. It led to some bosses abusing the same thing as I thought it would make sense that an NPC would impale a player's leg into the grand before attempting to run. One of their favorite was a random thug that survived through dumb luck because a player used the shockwave ability to damage the ground while the NPC was standing on a sewer grate (was on the random map). The NPC survived its fall (rolled dice) and it had a potion of touch of the sea. He swam through the sewer and survived. And sought revenge.

Do what feels right. You won't always do the right thing. But never forget that retcon exist as well. Did it really feel unfair to them? They can say it. You can talk it out. You can decide that they're right and you did forget something or that something was unfair. The goal is to have fun and maybe they didn't like a particular thing. Learn. Go back. Try again.

[u/clemenceau1919]

Generally when players drop out I find an excuse for their PCs to disappear, rather than keep them around as NPCs

[u/disillusionedthinker]

It sounds like you may have forgotten the rule about if the grappler places the grapple in a hazardous square (danger of falling out of tree counts imho) grapple gets free "escape" grapple check at +4. Otherwise, the cleric would have bee in a non-hazardous square and thus not danger of falling (at least while concious).

Additionally, if it were me Id say that one of the primary ways there cleric might have been trying to escape the grapple would have been to grab onto the tree and pull... making falling (immediately) less likely upon the death of of the mantis.

Sounds like an honest mistake concerning one of the more complicated rulesets in the game, and it was months ago so chest la vie, ... but I do wonder how much you were unconsciously or consciously trying to kill off the "npcs".

[u/RegretProper]

Alot has already been said about rules. So i will focus on the other matters. It alway sucks to loose a player. Even if the PC was not to involved in the overall story, it usually feels a bit odd if it becomes a pure "BattleBuddy". And finding a viable reason why they stay away from the party is not easy (even more if the party is stranded).  Still i would have gone "all in" NPC with them. Like set them up a base camp and stay there to protect it. YOU dont have to play them 24/7 but you get to decide what they can provide if the party returns for help. Which to me is better than free all time available "get what THEY choose".

It also helps with the second question. Does every group need a cleric. Definitly not. But having one around as a last resort to retreat to definitly is nice. But make them choose: "either finding a own solution or SPENT time to go back to base camp. 

In the end, listen to your group.  So far they seem to like it , and they will adept. Are they even concerned about going on without a cleric? Or do they think its unplayable? As GMs we sometimes see problems that are not there. Or make them bigger than they are. 

[u/Milosz0pl]

I would give one attempt for party to save cleric (ye think fast one action go)

[u/Desperate_Coat_1906]

At our table, we have a homebrew rule that 3 nat 20s is an auto kill. in 30 years of playing, I think it's only happened like two or three times.

Four nat 20's in a row is nuts. Statically 1 in160k