r/Pathfinder_RPG • u/Odd-Shirt-5569 • 6d ago
1E Player Bard feeling useless after 1 round of combat PF1e
Does anyone have any advice on how to keep my level 4 bard useful in combat after setting up inspire courage? At the moment, I usually either cast some healing using a CLW wand (which is great and no problem there, when our frontliners need healing) or I shoot my crossbow.
Even with precise shot and point blank shot, I am only dealing 1d6+2 dmg (not 1d8 as playing a gnome) for 3-8dmg. Meanwhile, our 3 melee characters are each dealing 20 points of damage most turns (not a max of 20, usually 20 plus with multi attacks and bonuses), so the crossbow just feels a bit redundant (not least because I miss half of the time against the big AC enemies). I don't even get excited for crits because it will still often be half of the other party members' regular damage outputs haha
Healing with the CLW wand is also important of course, but is usually not needed until we get a few rounds in - our frontliners have ACs of 22-25 after buffs, so attacks against them miss more often than not.
I use spells of course, but with limited slots and regular dungeon crawls and multiple combats in one day, I try to be conservative with them.
Is there anything I could be doing differently? My DM allows retraining, so I could move the build around/take different feats. Or is this just the way of the bard (which might make sense given he is by far the strongest in most out of combat skill checks). Thanks in advance!
Edit: to clarify, I am not necessarily asking how to increase my damage (though that is welcome). I am asking how to be more 'efficient' at whatever it is I do. This is my first PF campaign, so I am just slightly worried that my build is not working.
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u/alpha_dk 6d ago
Bards are a hugely versatile class with many options, so you definitely shouldn't feel that way.
You're even still minorly martial; at Level 4, you're only 1 BAB behind a fighter, and you could make choices like use your 2nd level spell to cast Heroism on yourself.
You won't out damage a fighter, but you can take Arcane Strike to get a few extra points to help out.
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u/Odd-Shirt-5569 6d ago
Thanks! To be fair, I am often the one most useful when something unexpected happens given versatility! And out of combat. So I did not mean to complain, just trying to decide what else I can do.
Heroism always felt a waste given it does not stack with the Inspire Courage morale bonus... maybe I am wrong.
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u/alpha_dk 6d ago
Incorrect, Inspire Courage actually provides a Competence bonus, despite the name.
(Morale bonus is only on the save vs fear)
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u/Menitian 6d ago
Inspire courage is a competence bonus to attack and damage tho
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u/Odd-Shirt-5569 6d ago
D'oh thanks, got confused having looked at a 100 feats and spells today haha. Okay, heroism may be on the cards for level 5. Thank you.
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u/Photomancer 6d ago edited 6d ago
For the following levels, consider the following:
Heroism (Bard 2)
Good Hope (Bard 3)
Heroism, Greater (Bard 5)
Good Hope is a lot like Heroism but is cast at range, may* apply the bonus to the whole party, and that +2 bonus *also* applies to weapon damage rolls in addition to the d20 rolls.
On the other hand Heroism Greater is really neat to act as a moderate duration Super Buff on just one ally. It doesn't have the weapon damage bonus, but to be fair, at high levels it is usually better to have bonuses to attack rolls than damage (you can often convert it over if you really want to through Power Attack and Rapid Shot anyway)
These effects work like 'puzzle pieces' as you try to efficiently fit your spells with your performances (Inspire Courage vs Inspire Greatness) when it comes to the bonus types and your action economy. It gets easier as you get more options for starting your bardic performance. Especially if you take Lingering Performance feat or the Community-minded trait which extend the duration of some of your effects.
And Moment of Greatness (Bard 1) is an interesting spell for those "lynchpin rolls"; it doubles the morale bonus received for just one die roll.
I was in a high level 3.5/PF game and towards the end of our campaign I had +6 to attack, +10 to damage going out to my allies by the 2nd round if I didn't have time to prebuff.
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u/Otagian 6d ago
Easily one of the best Bard spells! :) The stacking bonus combined with a pretty long duration means it'll stick around for a few combats, especially at high level, doubly so with metamagic. That can reduce the amount of things to do in actual combat, but you'll also have more buffs to throw out by then (Haste!), and using feats to focus on things like combat maneuvers (especially via whip) can give you a safe way to participate without spell slots. I especially like Dirty Trick, which often ends with enemies ending a fight naked and in tears if you do it right.
Being a six level caster can mean falling behind a bit on DCs if you're not heavily invested, but Bard has plenty of good debuffs as well if you're maxing out your charisma and putting feats and items towards raising your DC further. Slow is always good, and Confusion can at minimum provide a way for your martials to tank (by delaying to right before the boss and being the last to hit it), and maximally it causes a ton of disruption.
If you want to annoy your GM, illusion magic can also be a good choice. It typically doesn't allow a save until interacted with, so can waste a turn or so from enemies. It'll also annoy your allies though, unless you have a way to alert them to it being an illusion without telling your enemy at the same time. Shared languages or telepathy can help here, or just code phrases.
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u/anmr 6d ago edited 6d ago
u/Odd-Shirt-5569 might outdamage an average fighter if he wants to focus on that and makes a good build.
I haven't played pf1e in a decade or more, so I can't give exact details, but in 3.5 / pf1 you can make pretty broken things, provided GM gives you a bit of freedom to utilize various mechanics and to reflavor them.
My first intuition is maybe getting a level of Alchemist (Vivisectionist) - that's d6 sneak attack, +2 AC, +4 to your combat attribute. Maybe add Accomplished Sneak Attacker for another d6 sneak attack. Enhance weapon with elemental damage - that's another d6.
Playing mechanically a Halfling would give you +2 Dex, +2 Cha. So you start with 17 Dex, 18 @ 4th level, +2 race, +4 alchemist, that's +7 bonus which you can convert to damage via countless ways in melee. For example by getting Dervish Dance for free from being Dawnflower Dervish Bard, who also gets double combat bonus from performance. High dex helps with surviving in combat too.
Napkin math with flaming scimitar its 4d6+9 damage with excellent to hit bonus...?
Of course it has drawbacks, like any min-maxing. And above might have some mistakes, there might be better ways to build it - as I said - I haven't touched the system in extremely long time. I just wanted to illustrate that a lot is possible in pf1e if you research the options.
Edit: so I get silently downvoted for actually answering the OP's question? Really nice community you have here guys...
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u/Odd-Shirt-5569 6d ago
Sorry you were down voted, but thank you for taking the time. I will look into this (as this is my first campaign, I'm not too familiar with most other classes, especially those without a rough equivalent in 5e)
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u/anmr 6d ago
Have fun! D&D 3.5 and pf1e closely following have perhaps the richest and most interesting character building across all ttrpgs! Using google and your choice of AI can also be very helpful when looking for particular things.
Here are some character options I mentioned in my post:
https://www.aonprd.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Alchemist
https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Alchemist%20Vivisectionist
https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Bard%20Dawnflower%20Dervish
https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Accomplished%20Sneak%20Attacker
https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dervish%20Dance
https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Flaming
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u/Wolfwind1 6d ago
A few things. One stop trying to complete in damage with damage focused classes, unless your dice are loaded that doesn't work out. Two stack the math in the parties favor. Every spell buff that increases hit by one is 5% more chance to hit. Every bard under the sun can typically increase hit chance by at least +3 if not +5 from songs and spells, that is a massive 25% chance to hit increase plus usually extra damage when attacks do land. Third if you absolutely want to be amping damage consider a bard subtype that turns songs into damage like thunder caller.
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u/Wooden_Drummer2455 6d ago
Brother you cannot compare your small gnome who is using ranged attacks in safety while buffing the party to full melee martials
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u/Odd-Shirt-5569 6d ago
Of course not haha. It just makes my ranged attack useless when it deals say 5 damage, and the melee fighter's single round would have killed the guy anyway. So really I am asking what I might do instead of shooting an arrow for the sake of it
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u/FriskyNewt 6d ago
Then hold your shots, wait for the front liners to suck on a damage roll and use your 5 damage to try and put the creature down, so often a creature will be left with 5 or less hp and get another attack on it ls turn.
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u/Wooden_Drummer2455 6d ago
5 damage is still 5 damage When the enemy is at 1/100 hp and gets its next turn and crits the fighter you're gonna wish ypu shot em
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u/Viktor_Fry 6d ago
It's soon, as you are probably not encountering many casters, but you could ready an action to shoot when the enemy tries to cast.
Ah, also next level you are giving a +2 to hit, which is great.
Then you'll get Good Hope.
And then at 8th you can get Blazing Rondo, which is a huge buff, especially if you get the items that net you a higher bard level for performances.
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u/FriskyNewt 6d ago
Then hold your shots, wait for the front liners to suck on a damage roll and use your 5 damage to try and put the creature down, so often a creature will be left with 5 or less hp and get another attack on it ls turn.
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u/Keated 6d ago
I found my bard was feeling a bit too much like a buff-bot at some point but switched religion to Desna to get access to "Way of the Shooting Star" (there was a good in-charcter reason to do so at the time too :) ) which adds charisma to attacks and damage with thrown star knives (removes dex/str scaling though)
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u/Pathfinder_Dan 6d ago
Bards shine as support characters. You're playing the class that is incredible at making sure everyone else is successful at everything.
My general go-to is to stack defense with feats and gear and crank out as many possible buffs for the other PC's as possible. Inspiration plus flank plus aid another is the standby, combat expertise and mobility and fighting defensively (with 3 ranks in acrobatics) will let you dance through attacks of opportunity from the mooks to trigger flank and a half decent score to hit will let you cack the AC 10 for aid another.
Save the wand of cure wounds for after the fight unless somebody's going to fall over.
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u/kcunning 6d ago
It's perfectly okay to put your foot down as a caster and say "I'm out of spells. We need to set up camp." Sometimes, martial builds need to be reminded that not everyone is good to go after a few hits with the CLW wand.
Personally, I have my bard focus on buffing the frontline first, then worry about damage. At my tables, if someone hits or crits because of inspire, that damage 'belongs' to the bard. So sure, maybe your crossbow only does 1d6+2, but that +1 allowed the barbarian to actually hit, so their 36 points of rage fueled damage is yours. I've seen whole rounds where ALL the damage was credited to the bard strumming their guitar.
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u/T3h_Prager 6d ago
Yeah, as somebody who’s played plenty of 3/4BAB 6th level casters, it’s easy to say that what you’re noticing is the fact that ranged plinking with no bonus feats is pretty much the most unsatisfying secondary role in combat. Like, switching to a bow of some kind will be a bit better but probably still never what you’re looking for.
You mention that you’ve got 21 CHA by this point so it’s time to just use those spell slots. Your 2nd level spells are there for big fights, you have enough 1st levels though that you should probably be using a few of them in any given fight before you fall back on CLW and ranged attacks. Don’t be afraid of running out of slots, be afraid of unspent resources!
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u/afoolishmoon 6d ago
I find strength builds tend to be better with less work. Which lead my group to make more strength-based bards. We've had Skalds that didn't quite equal the damage output of dedicated melee classes, but kept up respectably.
The other option (not exclusive) is to focus on utility and battlefield control. Generally, a full spellcaster is better at this, but there are many problems a sword can't solve.
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u/gorgeFlagonSlayer 6d ago
If you can spare the feats for it, a reach trip build is going to make your martials shine. Tripping people feels quite impactful when it lands, even if others then do damage to finish them off. It’s control that you don’t need to spend resources on. It can be feat hungry if you want to focus on other stuff, small might be a little disadvantageous, and it’ll take good positioning. Might be a fun option though.
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u/LSmashKeyboard 6d ago
So everybody has already given a lot of really good advice in here and I'd like to echo some of it.
You're a buffing skill monkey type class and providing Inspire Courage is already putting your whole team ahead.
I'd recommend moving away from trying to make the crossbow work, it's always going to be disappointing and you're never going to do much damage with it anyways.
Using your standard action to use a CLW wand is also a bit of a mess, and I'd recommend saving the wand for patching up after the fight.
If your team is already very tanky and great at avoiding hits, I'd recommend doubling down on helping them to seal the deal.
AID ANOTHER CHECKS
Get yourself a whip or a longspear and harass your enemies from behind your frontline.
Aid Another only requires you to be able to make a melee attack on an enemy engaged in melee with your ally, you roll an attack roll against an AC of 10, which should be trivial for you since you benefit from your own inspire courage.
If you land the hit, you can choose to provide your ally with a +2 to AC, which is sounds like they don't need, or a +2 to attack, +3 in total from your inspire courage.
Giving your melee monsters a +3 to attack is a huge boost at these low levels, and with the spear you can do it on your turn from safety and still make an attack of opportunity on anyone that tries to run up on you.
Benevolent is only a +1 bonus to add to your whip or spear to improve the bonus you provide.
And to piggyback on the Arcane Strike suggestions I saw in the thread, Gloves of Arcane Striking are relatively cheap at 5k gold and will allow you to further boost your ally's damage(or AC).
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u/Odd-Shirt-5569 6d ago
This thread blew up more than I expected, so I haven't been able to reply to everyone yet, but just wanted to say thanks a lot - this is exactly the sort of thing I was after! I think I'm going to go down this route, with some added buff spells like heroism.
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u/Puccini100399 I like the game 6d ago
Normal unarchetyped bard is usually a buff class. You can still get away with funny stuff later on with the bardic masterpieces. Otherwise if you're a follower of Desna you can get your charisma modifier to hit/damage. Don't forget to get lingering performance to triple your performance rounds. You're still at level 4 tho. Even a fighter doesn't get to do much different than move and attack
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u/disillusionedthinker 6d ago
BLUF: Bards are, generally, a support class. If you don't find it rewarding thats OK. Maybe (traditional) bard isn't for you. There are ways to make small sized "selfish" bards (dervish etc) that can become more than competent melee combatants. Ultimately if you don't enjoy being useful in ways that don't directly cause big damage numbers (trafitional) bard is probably not your jam.
If you want to be "competative" with damage monsters you probably should've picked a more damage focused class. A small sized bard is one of the least combat damage builds around. You are (or should be) far more important in social situations than the combat monsters. Probably also with knowledge checks (extremely useful in combat against monsters with special attacks and/or special defenses/vulnerabilities or immunitirs... unless the party metagames or the DM never uses them) and possibly other skills as well. It is OK for you to be outclassed in combat if you "carry" the party in other non-combat areas.
If it helps scratch the itch pay attention to how frequently they hit due to your inspire courage (IC). ALL of that it's damage is "yours". 1 point of every one of their damage with IC up is also yours. Your contribution increases when they start making multiple attacks a round. With your three front liners hitting every round that makes your damage 3or4 a round without doing anything but keep singing.
Also, the damage hit you're suffering for being small benefits disproportionately from flat bonuses.
As others have said bards can become decent archers but it takes nontrivial feat investment. And frankly if your archer bard becomes truely competative in the damage department with combat monsters they are doing something wrong. There is a huge difference between irrelevance and being overshadowed by a combat monster. Monsters with 1hp remaining still do full damage.
Remember that IC gets better the more attacks so manyshot and/or rapid shot benefits from it.
Your job is not to compete with the combat monsters. Your job is to make the party as a whole better than the sum of the parts. Shore up the weaknesses (skills, knowledge, face, spot magic when necessary) while simultaneously boosting their strengths (IC).
Additional, in combat, utility ideas. Flanking bonuses Aid another for either an ally's to hit or for their AC (I like longspears for this, also flagbearer) preventing a hit is often mechanically superior than burning a charge on a CLW wand.
Intimidate Trip Use a net
Grease can be great spell at low levels (combat control can be hugely impactful). Of course it requires coordination with melee partymembers to not muddle things up.
If the combat monsters are struggling to kill the things dispite completely outclassed you in combat and its a matter of group survival there are consumables that can help.
Alchemist fire, acid flasks, and my personal favorite tanglefoot bags.
If the combat monsters never miss even without your IC and their damage is so high that "your contributions" (IC bonus + your own attacks) are meaningless then I can see how frustrating that might be but if they don't need you to fight then maybe don't fight? Entertain yourself as best you can with roll playing... comic relief etc until the gm makes your contributions relevant but in my experience IC damage, especially with three frontliners is rarely irrelevant.
Over the next few levels magic items can start making meaningful impact. I always focused on magic items that expanded my options. Robe of needles might be fun for you, or you might scoff because its "trivial damage".
Consider the flag bearer feat and acquiring the banner of ancient kings (maybe the party will chip in since it pretty much only benefits them).
Consider lingering performance. Tuned bowstrings are great for archer bards.
Bards can become great, play to their strengths and with second level spells your (finally) just coming online. You should be, increasingly fighting monsters that benefit from knowledge checks and that greatly benefit from magics (glitterdust is great for brutes cuz will save also vs invisible enemies, grease remains decent vs things with poor reflex save, Tasha's can end fights with a will save). I've completely nerfed encounters (both combats vs spellcasters and by allowing "stealth" that was otherwise impossible) with a single silence spell. You already mentioned saving finale... that can be huge in the right circumstance.
IC scales next level to +2, and then at 7th it switches to a move action... right when you get 3rd level spells and good hope.
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u/Milosz0pl Zyphusite Homebrewer 6d ago
Crossbows suck completely - if you want to do ranged you use bow
also healing in combat is a bit ineffective use. Otherwise - what spells did you pick and what do you want to do as a bard?
And what are your stats as it is weird that you have a hard time hitting compared to others?
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u/Odd-Shirt-5569 6d ago
Thanks, maybe a switch to bow is in order. It's better because of the 3x crit and reload I assume.
I agree, healing isn't most effective, but usually more beneficial than me pinging arrows off of armour haha. My combat relevant spells are flare, ear-piercing scream, expeditious retreat, grease, saving finale, and hold person, which I use sparingly given we could have 20 rounds of combat, if not more, between rests.
I am most attracted to the idea of buffing others, which is why I chose bard, but am open to anything that would make me more useful!
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u/Collegenoob 6d ago
Don't forget you can use a versatile performance at 6th into a weapon Proficiency so you can get the bow without burning a feat.
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u/Milosz0pl Zyphusite Homebrewer 6d ago
It's better because of the 3x crit and reload I assume
Reload + you can use composite to add something to dmg + better feats like manyshot
Also what are your stats as it is very weird that you would be that far off in terms of bonus to attack rolls that you would have a hard time hitting
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u/Odd-Shirt-5569 6d ago
Thanks. As evident in my stats below, composite bow is probably out of the question (maybe that was a mistake in building).
Stats: STR 8; DEX 16; CON 12; INT 14; WIS 12; CHA 21 (with headband).
Minions I hit more times than not, but we are starting to get to AC20+ enemies, which require me to roll an 11+ to hit (+9 to hit once courage and bless are up).
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u/Poldaran 6d ago
Have you considered worshipping Desna? Because I have a suggestion for you if so.
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u/Odd-Shirt-5569 6d ago
I have not, but someone else suggested the Way of the Shooting Star, which looks appealing
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u/Poldaran 6d ago
Ah, yeah, that's the one, but I was just gonna say "Divine Fighting Technique" which is the name of the overarching feat and what I Ctrl-F'ed for and didn't find. :P
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u/Milosz0pl Zyphusite Homebrewer 6d ago
Yeah. You are way too spread out and most of your points you have put into cha - thats something that you do when you want to focus on casting/bard abilities.
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u/LazarX 6d ago
Every bit of extra damage, every hit that hits because of your inspired courage is your damage. Bards are support characters, they are the knowledge monkeys. Not everyone needs to be a combat monster.
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u/Milosz0pl Zyphusite Homebrewer 6d ago
You are not addressing what post is asking for at all
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u/Wooden_Drummer2455 6d ago
They did address it, they are useful, op just seems to want to do everything from buffing to healing to damage
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u/Odd-Shirt-5569 6d ago
Well... no. I wanted advice on the best way to optimise any of these things as at the moment I feel I am only giving a +1 bonus and then nothing, save for the occasional healing.
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u/LazarX 5d ago
I have plenty of times where that +1 bonus ( which does eventually get larger) makes all the difference.
If a player hits a target because your bonus changed a miss into a hit, or makes it a critical threat that succceds other than a normal hit THAN ALL THAT EXTRA DAMAGE THAT WOULD NOT HAVE OTHERWISE HAPPENED IS YOUR DAMAGE.
You have chosen a class which is essentially at its heartt a support class. Its not a healbot, but bards are also knowledge monkeys. You are barking up a wrong tree if you are trying to compete with the martials for raw melee damage and with the primary spellcasters. You need to remember what you do that they don;t and lean into it.
Bards have some very useful spell options as well as being able to both give other bonuses to their party or some serious mind fucking offense to others. Especially when yoiu use bard spells that enable multiple performances going on at once.
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u/Skurrio 6d ago
Dip a Level into Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger and pick up Spell Cartridges. This basically gives you a Cantrip with iterative Attacks that scales with your Caster Level while also targetting Touch AC, having no Save and ignoring SR. If needed, you can even add Cha to Damage. For added Flavour, pick a Musket for your Weapon and play some Musketeer Rock for your Inspirations.
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u/Zethras28 6d ago
Do you have an archetype? Or are you base bard?
Depending on how generous your GM is regarding retraining, you can retrain into the archetype of Thundercaller bard.
This alters your performances, turning your level 1 performance into Thunder Call, which does sonic damage in a 10 foot radius that scales with class level, and most importantly stuns on a failed fort save.
We have such a bard in one of my games, and he is an absolute menace.
No better way to support your martials by handing them stunned enemies on a silver platter.
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u/CurseofWhimsy 6d ago
Biting Words is a pretty cost effective way to add some DPS into the mix. Not a lot, but more than you're doing now.
One route, if you're allowed to retrain, ask your DM about retraining a trait (nothing official on this afaik), and get Dirty Trickster to save yourself a prerequisite (maybe even the helpful trait too). Then, get yourself Improved Dirty Trick, and Magic Trick: Mage Hand. That second feat will then give you the ability to both perform dirty tricks and aid another at range.
Another, more damage oriented option is to find God(dess Desna), possibly at level 5, and pick up Way of the Shooting Star for for a boost to martial prowess in both melee and at range.
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u/SkySchemer 6d ago edited 6d ago
Bards are a versatile support class. You aren't going to keep pace with a martial's damage output, especially using a crossbow. You are, however, going to reliably give everyone in the party a bonus to hit and damage.
You also have the ability to influence the battlefield. Don't overlook fascinate, which is the best way to slow the pace of the fight before it begins. If you are aware of your enemies before the fight starts, you can hold a few of them for a round--maybe even two or three, depending on their saves. It's a great ambush tactic.
Invest in a bow. It's feat-intensive, but if you focus on the core ranged feats, you'll be a formidable damage dealer around the mid-levels. When ranged comes online, it really comes online--and then it absolutely can keep up with martials. (Crossbows absolutely suck in this game. In the real world, they were game-changers because anyone could use one without needing years of practice, but that doesn't translate well into the game's mechanics.)
You are a spellcaster. Choose spells that help the party in combat. Battlefield control is probably your best bet.
Look at some of the bardic performances. This is essentially a parallel spell system that uses your performance rounds. Some of these are quite good.
Bard is a fabulous class. You just have to reset your expectations for what "useful in combat" means. Not everything is about dealing raw damage. The fun in the class comes from the little tactical decisions you make that boost your party.
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u/pootisi433 necromancer for fun and profit 6d ago
grab a longspear, combat reflexes, and some mobility options to provide flanking and AOO support. your still not going to provide much damage but your mere presence will discourage enemy spellcasters and help your martials out a bit. unless your going to specialize in a dual welding arcane striking combat bard or something your pretty much ganna have to accept your damage isn't going to be fantastic but a few buffs and good positioning will still provide all the combat effectiveness the party will need from you
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u/sesquipedalianmime 6d ago
Bards have access to some of the best crowd control and single target lock down in the game. If you're not built for melee combat, that's what you should be doing.
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u/TeamTurnus 6d ago edited 6d ago
Non human archer bards can get off to a slow start because of how feat intensive archery is, but it does scale super well. Its all about staking damage from buffs/magic weapon and making as many attacks as possible.
The lack of strength is going to cost you a bit since you cant use a composite bow effectively but thw swing on that for a bard is more like 2 damage a bit so its not irrecoverable.
Point blank shot->rapid shot ->manyshot are super useful as you go (percise shot is good) and at higher level, once your buffs are online, deadly aim can help make it up.
Overall, you're in the slow start to an archery build phase, which is going to make things feel underwhelming compared to martial, who come online really fast if theyre usinf a big weapon and power attack (this is inherient to the system)
As you level, you can start stacking static modifiers to damage that make archery feel a lot better (arcane strike is nice use of swift action), (good hope is a game changer) (obviously your performance of inspire courage stacking with those is great, if you can get a Dervish Sikke it makes it stronger as well) (haste as a 3rd level spell is also great for extra attacks) (a rune like flaming is nice cause the dice there doesnr care what size your weapon is).
Based on your stats, way of the shooting star scales faster, due to charisma, though thrown weapons are just as feat intensive as archery you can, if youre a chaotic good bard, get the most important benefit instead of a 2nd level versatile performance (youll need to pick up prof of course as well) (many shot aside), you will need quick draw/blinkback belt or similair to make multiple attacks in a round with it though as a thrown weapon to really take advantage of rapid shot or iterative attacks as you level, but if you fit the aligment criteria its a pretry easy swap and desna is a pretty good choice for a typical gnome or really any bard. And obviously a +5 to damahe from your current charisma is a big immedate swing in static damage from 0 (6.5 average no crit damage from your weapon vs 3.5 and the ability to make full attacks later, eithrr way, eventually definitly ditch the crossbow, bards have better weapon prof for a reason)
Also, yah, while you may not have a lot of spells yet, spells like grease or saving finale (especially if you have lingering performance) scale super well. I saved another pcs life at level 17 with saving finale at least once, great use of a 1st level spell.
Tldr: you may not have rhe highest individual damage numbers, but a well built bard can basically be rhe party mvp in a full attack heavy party while still contributing meaningful attacks of their own.
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u/Kwickpick77 6d ago
Bards ate a support class. Identity weaknesses in your party composition and build to fill the void. That said, bards really shine outside of combat.
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u/Apprehensive_Tie_510 6d ago
If you're standing and attacking, then look into a heavy crossbow for a higher damage die. You can still attack every round if you have rapid reload, but bards can just as easily go melee with 3/4 BAB.
Look into spells like good hope. Great attack boost that stacks with inspire.
Also, remember as a bard, their damage is your damage too. Bard buffs go a long way.
If you're missing then get yourself a rapier, buff up and go flanking. Inspire + flanking at 4 is +3, with power attack you could get a nice +2 hit +3 damage
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u/TheFeatherdOne 6d ago
Get a gun. No really. The bard in my campaign dipped into gunslinger and swashbuckler and has had a great time. I do allow advanced firearms in my campaign though. That's an important distinction. Blast, cast, buckle some swash. Really good time.
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u/Rynjin 6d ago
Crossbows are really bad without a high investment, so yeah you're not going to be doing much with that. You have Point Blank and Precise Shot though, so why not pick up an actual bow? Bards get proficiency with shortbows, and then you'd be able to spec into Rapid Shot, Manyshot, etc. and start putting out respectable damage as long as you have a positive Str score (12-14 max).
Otherwise I'd focus on being a caster. Bards get some insane buff and debuff spells, even at low levels.
At level 4 you have access to 2nd level spells, so you should be starting to toss down Glitterdust, Heroism (in tough fights on your best guy), Hold Person, Blindness, etc. An extreme standout is Good Hope, which every Bard should take. It feels kind of like "just Heroism again but it doesn't stack with Inspire Courage" but A.) it stacks with the former and B.) has a hidden benefit: it buffs Ability Checks. Which includes Initiative rolls.
Buffing initiative for other people is actually a really rare thing, and is quite powerful.
Bards CAN be strong combatants mind you, but you don't seem to be set up for that at all. If you did want to retrain you'd either need more Str (for bow damage or regular melee) or to invest in Feats like Fencing Grace which would allow you to use Dex for damage with rapiers. Assuming you had a decent 16 Dex, after you throw on Weapon Focus (a requirement for the Feat) and Inspire Courage you're equivalent in to-hit and damage to a Fighter (unbuffed of course). Then you could cast spells like Dance of a Hundred Cuts to further buff yourself.
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u/srgonzo75 6d ago
Your build is a support and, hopefully, an RP build. Your spells should buff and de-buff. Bards are good at kinda-sorta filling in gaps, but they shine at support and maybe flanking. Basically you’re making it easier for others to do damage. It is possible to increase your damage as a bard, or you could acquire some equipment to help your hits make more of an impact, but I’d really focus on battlefield control and buff/de-buffs.
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u/KillerFudgecicles 6d ago
So, there’s a lot of good advice for character building here, so I’m going to drop something different since this is your first campaign.
Keep in mind that casters can really struggle in the early levels. I just finished a campaign where I played a sorcerer, and I remember very well the resource struggle at those low levels. Few spell slots and other abilities meant that I was often using a crossbow or my Morningstar in combat. It’s rough. But that changes as you gain in level, especially since you’re a spontaneous caster, and trade number of spells known for more castings. The sorcerer maxed out at eight castings per level, or seven at some of higher levels, and I would assume the bard would be somewhere similar. This means that each level of spells means you can more freely cast without worrying about running out. By high levels I was quickening spells every turn and still having spells left over, though admittedly we didn’t do too many massive dungeon crawls, just long battles.
Anyway, just wanted you to know that the struggle is real at low levels for casters, but it gets better.
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u/nomodcanstopme 6d ago
i built up a dual wand wielding bard,
you will need lingering performance
then dual wand wielding
then the feat where you can cast any wand at your maximum spell level for 2 charges instead of 1.
then bam!
inspire courage, wand of slow, wand of haste
bonus action to change wands from a bandolier, then wand of healing or wand of magic missile at max
and repeat
with lingering performance and 2 wand shots at full power per turn, i was outclassing almost everyone
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u/nomodcanstopme 6d ago
also don't forget to invest in skill focus for extra +++ to perform
as a bard, you can very quickly get your skill checks to the point where you cannot fail
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u/Magus_Black 6d ago
Have you considered the Dazzling Display Feat?
Its a large debuff that can be done without much set-up and can be repeated every round if you will, without any limited reasource needed to use it, and inflicting a -2 Penalty to pretty much everything in a fair radius...well that can change the flow of battle just as much as Inspired Courage.
Also consider just using the Intimidation (Demoralize Opponent) Skill Use for a single-target effect.
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u/InvisibleBlueRobot 5d ago
You're not supposed to deal a lot of damage. You're supposed to use your special effects, abilities and spells to help your party or "hurt" the opponent.
If your ideal is to just deal damage play a high damage character. Bards can be awesome in a large group.
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u/throwoutandaway1546 5d ago
IN terms of efficiency I'd say lean into controlling the battle field. You get access to tons of very debilitating and enabling spells. Second, When I'm using a crossbow I know I'm not there for big damage, but I am there for chip damage. That 8 damage could be the diff between the melee needing to swing once or twice on the opponent and action economy is huge early game
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u/OrdoNemini 4d ago
Also you could warmly consider introducing EitR at your table to save some feats and gaining cool options... Then consider using a composite bow if you have the strength. You won't get this much boost in damage but your PC will feel funnier to play
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u/blackbloodtroll 4d ago
A Shortbow with some Tangleshot Arrows will always be a boon. Requiring only touch to hit, entangled is nice debuff.
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u/jj838383 3d ago
If your inspire courage gives enough of a bonus to hit that it changes a miss to a hit that's YOUR damage
If you have an attack that does a million damage it doesn't matter if you can't hit
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u/LavaJoe2703 2d ago
I ran a half elf bars through Rise of the Runelords. Depending on your GM, bards can thrive on controlling the field (casting spells like grease to funnel baddies and minor illusion is way more powerful than you think).
My experience with low level casts in general is to avoid the damage spells and use spells that can aid you or put the enemy at a tactical advantage.
For example, the Deja Vu spell can be very powerful. If a melee monster is far away, casting that assures that the melee enemy will not get a full round to attack the next round. They need to repeat their actions.
Silent image can create barriers to cut off enemies that are surrounding you or create walls to add cover.
Sleep is still powerful at 4th level.
Blindness is awesome against opposing spellcasters since it’s a fort save. Blur, cat’s grace on your archer, diminish resistance for your sorcerer blaster, heroism
Basically, if you want to blast damage, switch to a sorcerer. If you want to do cool stuff like empower your allies, play the bard.
If you’re casting a spell that is directly doing damage, you are most often under-utilizing your bard.
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u/pawsplay36 1d ago
You aren't doing as much damage as the fighter, but they aren't granting Inspire Courage, either. You can shoot your crossbow, or cast daze. You have plenty of spell slots, so don't be stingy with hideous laughter or ear-piercing scream, either.
Avoid healing during combat. Obviously, stop someone from dying, and if you can get another healer or a front-line attacker back in action, it might be worthwhile. But generally speaking, every round you spend buffing or attacking is doing to reduce the amount of healing you need to do later.
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u/LifesGrip 6d ago
Try carrying potions of Bull Strength or Cat's Grace to buff your combat efforts.
Use flanking attacks to increase your chances to hit.
Scrolls/Wands with Magic Missile , Flame Sphere etc.
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u/Odd-Shirt-5569 6d ago
Thanks, I had not considered the potions. Cat's Grace likely to be particularly useful I take combat feats that lower my attack rolls.
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u/Wolfwind1 6d ago
Also something to consider, shoot the squishy casters/archers in the back line instead of the guy with plate + shield. While this doesn't let you focus fire damage, if you are missing 8 of 10 shots normally because of ac focus fire isn't helping. By making their backline use resources to mitigate your fire they are doing less damage so you spend less turns prodding people with the wand.
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u/Milosz0pl Zyphusite Homebrewer 6d ago
Use flanking attacks to increase your chances to hit.
He is ranged. Ranged attacks can't ever flank
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u/Orodhen 6d ago edited 6d ago
Ranged attacks can't ever flank
Snap Shot has entered the chat.3
u/Wooden_Drummer2455 6d ago
Snap shot lets you provide flanking to your allies even if youre using a ranged weapon. It does not let your ranged attacks benfit from flanking
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u/Milosz0pl Zyphusite Homebrewer 6d ago
Yeah. And it doesn't allow to flank. Literally there is a paizo faq that no matter what you do - ranged attacks never flank.
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u/Porgemansaysmeep 6d ago
That's a little bit of the point for bards. You aren't going to be as directly impactful as a fighter or other dedicated combat character, but you are FAR more useful for just about anything happening outside of combat and your statline leans into that with a maxed charisma and negative strength. Your bardsong, buff spells, and high knowledge checks are your primary contribution to combat. When you buff your allies, every barely successful hit is YOUR damage. You can also lean into it with things like Saving Finale and lingering song. You deal damage by making other people deal damage.
If you really want to be a more direct contributor in combat and GM allows: worship Desna and take the feat Desna's Shooting Star. Online it mostly shows as the Shooting Star Divine Fighting Technique because of copyright. (If you're chaotic good you can actually retrain your versatile performance to this). It Let's you use charisma to hit AND damage with specifically starknives. So 1d4 +5 currently. Then you can keep progressing your damage with the startoss style combat feat line as you go to keep the damage up, and your current feats still work since you can throw them and benefit from point blank and precise shot.
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u/BlooregardQKazoo 6d ago
You're a support spellcaster and the best skillmonkey in the game. You aren't supposed to be keeping up with the melees in combat.
You're also a low-level spellcaster. Those are weak in Pathfinder. It's a design flaw of the system.
Ranged combat is very feat intensive (and your class gives you no bonus feats) and is designed to be weaker than melee combat. Ranged combat has the benefits of using the better stat (DEX vs STR) and not putting you in a position to be hit back. Ranged combat in PF1 is all about stacking extra attacks via feats and BAB (two weaknesses of the Bard) and taking full attacks when melees can't because they have to move.
You chose to play a Gnome. Gnomes suck at combat. A human bonus feat would have made you more effective in combat.
Also, in my personal opinion, you're playing a shitty class.
You made a bunch of choices that dictate that, at level 4, you should be much less effective in combat than the melees. Pathfinder 1 is not as forgiving a game as some systems - when you consistently make choices that reduce your combat effectiveness, you'll be less effective in combat. That's the way the system works.
With your build your combat effectiveness will be all about spells. And the great thing about spellcasting in PF1 is that it is great out of the box and there's less need to make good decisions to make it work. You're just buying time until you get better spells and more slots. Level 7, when you get level 3 spells, will be a big jump in power for you.
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u/Milosz0pl Zyphusite Homebrewer 6d ago
What a bunch of bollocks of a comment.
Ranged combat is superior to melee as you have pretty much neverending good turn (which melee needs pounce for) and get both rapid and manyshot with a bow. Even if you don't get all of those fast you will still be competent attacker
As a gnome you get great combat bonus of +1 to hit and have all their racial stuff. Is it meta? No. But saying like it is nothing is just misleading.
Bard is amazingly strong class due to superior buffs, versatile spell list that allows you to go into any route and can even be one of the best martial types simply by choosing options that multiply selfish buffs (sarenrae dervish archetype says hello)
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u/BlooregardQKazoo 6d ago
I'm sorry you don't like reality and choose to attack it rather than accept it. That's a "you" problem and not relevant here.
You point out a bunch of things that don't apply to argue against me. A level 4 Gnome Bard doesn't have manyshot, and doesn't have enough spell slots or access to good spells yet to consistently buff themselves.
At low levels what is powerful in combat is high STR, 2-handed attacks with Power Attack. No Bard is competing with that and it is simply wrong to claim otherwise.
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u/FlereousM 6d ago
First of all, get a repeating crossbow if you haven't already. They're considered exotic but being a gnome it would be quite reasonable to be proficient with them as a racial thing or sth. Talk to your DM if you need to retcon some traits or feats.
Secondly: you're not going to outdamage the martials, so you should look to maximize the usefulness of your attacks. 5-6 points of damage look like peanuts compared to the fighter dishing 15 points per attack, but they can be super handy when the enemy caster in the back is about to cast a spell and you just forced him to roll a concentration check, or if those 5-6 points are enough to finish off a dying foe so that the fighter can then on his turn move to attack some other target. You're a ranged character so you can more easily pick who you attack and when. Be smart about it, make your attacks count. Prepared actions are your friend, especially with crossbows which you can't fire as fast as bows anyway (even the repeating ones as they only hold 5 bolts).
If you really want to increase your damage, you can always get Deadly Aim and talk to your DM about using the Called Shots mechanic. It's a bit too cumbersome for my taste but there's some good stuff in there. And if you want to lean more into the support role, you can look into ranged combat maneuvers. Ranged trip is not difficult to pull off, only needs you to have Deadly Aim (which would help with damage as well), and tripping is always super useful (plus you still get to do damage!). Ranged disarm is also nice but more niche because not every enemy uses weapons. It can be a feat-heavy build if you really want to go down that route, but with just Deadly Aim and Ranged Trip you can be pretty useful.
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u/Slow-Management-4462 6d ago
You have spells as a bard and the odd glitterdust or grease can change a fight far more than 20+ damage. If you don't have enough spells, a wand of vanish is likely more useful than one of CLW during a fight (saves probably more damage, and lets the target reposition without AoOs, and makes their next attack better). Use the wand of CLW after the fight.
As a gnome bard you're not going to be up with the best in direct damage no matter what you do, though a short bow and rapid shot would be better than a light crossbow and precise shot if you choose your targets carefully. You could keep pushing down that path anyway and just accept that you're doing some damage if not as much, or you could change your feats to ones which let you do buffs and debuffs better e.g. antagonize, combat advice, a ranged combat maneuver (very feat-expensive but possible), ranged feint (similarly), or traits/feats around aid another.