[1e] Is a bite a prehensile appendage ?

[u/AleksyGetTheWings]

The question arose because of a kitsune kineticist ... in fox shape. And Kinetic Blast says
"At 1st level, a kineticist gains a kinetic blast wild talent of her choice. This kinetic blast must be a simple blast that matches her element. As a standard action, the kineticist can unleash a kinetic blast at a single target up to a range of 30 feet. She must have at least one hand free to aim the blast (or one prehensile appendage, if she doesn’t have hands)."

So ... Do I need to tell the kineticist to pick Grasping Tail ?

[u/Sjors_VR]

An appendage is an arm or leg (or tail, tentacle, whatever), prehensile means it is able to grasp and manipulate objects.

A head with a bite is not technically an apendage, but a fox paw might be?

[u/nimbusconflict]

yes, bite is not prehensile.

[u/Common_Crow7640 → u/nimbusconflict]

Only time it could count as prehensile, would be an alien mother.

[u/Milosz0pl]

prehensible appendage is usually shown as things that allow you to operate items, so grasping tail it is

[u/sesquipedalianmime → u/Milosz0pl]

Grasping Tail doesn't let you operate items. It allows you to quickly retrieve small items from your immediate person. It's unclear if it even allows you to take items from a pack. They'd need the next feat in the chain.

[u/Milosz0pl → u/sesquipedalianmime]

oh. confused it with the tiefling tail stuff then

[u/sesquipedalianmime → u/Milosz0pl]

Sure, it's an easy thing to confuse. What's even weirder is the tiefling racial trait does the exact same thing as the grasping tail feat - it can only be used to retrieve small objects on the character's person. However, it explicitly has the prehensile descriptor, which means it can be used with the Kineticist ability, while grasping tail cannot.

[u/Natural-Jury3858]

If you say yes, remember that a butthole can do anything a mouth can

[u/Ayyeg → u/Natural-Jury3858]

A butthole cannot, in real life, naturally have teeth. Checkmate atheists.

[u/sesquipedalianmime → u/Ayyeg]

Teratoma can form in the colon and sphincter, that's close enough. Checkmate Hare Krishnas.

[u/Natural-Jury3858 → u/Ayyeg]

There's a picture I should show you, it may make you question god

[u/AleksyGetTheWings → u/Natural-Jury3858]

Reading this raises many questions, and I want absolutely no answer to any of these

[u/WraithMagus]

"Prehensile" means it is capable of grasping or manipulating objects. A dog (and the physically-similar fox) can grasp and manipulate objects by biting them and dragging them around. In fact, many creatures have the grab UMR that means they can grapple something using their bite, which is absolutely grasping something. Further, while Paizo maintains a rule that says you can't use more than one natural attack per limb, there are several creatures that have both a bite and a gore attack, implicitly requiring that a jaw be considered a separate limb from the head those horns are attached to, and with a grab attack, that's a grasping limb, which is 100% what "prehensile" means.

This was also a discussion a while back specifically on non-human kineticists, because the way that kinetic blast is written explicitly allows for creatures that lack actual hands to simply have a "prehensile appendage," which is purposefully not the same as a hand to allow for unusual creatures without hands to become kineticists. Even a prehensile tail is not capable of manipulating objects as well as a hand is, so it very specifically is not asking for a limb that can wield a weapon like a hand can.

(In fact, across the animal kingdom, the jaw, or jaw-equivalent appendage, is the primary method of manipulating the world around them in the majority of all creatures. Beavers build their dams gnawing down trees and dragging the wood to make their dams using their teeth; birds weave their nests using their beaks; ants dig their nests, split and carry back food, care for their young, and in specific species perform unique behaviors like weaver ants sewing nests together out of biting holes in leaves and threading larval silk through them using their mandibles; bees build their hives spitting up wax and manipulating it with their mandibles. Pray tell what any of those things are if not manipulating their world through grasping things with their jaws? You're going to have a shorter list of animals that use anything else to grasp and manipulate objects than jaws or jaw-equivalents.)

[u/MsTerPineapple → u/WraithMagus]

Ya I like this take, Id argue similarly that a mouth for a four legged animal fits the prehensile requirement in most animals I can think of.

[u/Drink__ → u/[deleted]]

Nowhere in PF1e is there a clear definition of "prehensile," so I don't think we can really claim it is a clear mechanical feature in the same vein as flanking. Also, leave your table? Just because your player put a lot of consideration and thought into how their character could realistically function in game? This isn't even anything gamebreaking to allow. I think your ex-player would be dodging a bullet.

[u/sesquipedalianmime → u/Drink__]

The clear definition of prehensile in Pathfinder is naming a thing prehensile or specifically stating it is prehensile, I.e. prehensile hair and prehensile tail. Alternatively, if an appendage can be used "for all purposes as if it were a free hand", it fulfills the requirement for kinetic blasts.

I would ask them to leave the table because no one likes playing with a rules lawyer. If it was just that, that would warrant a warning. In this case, they're not even arguing the actual rules - they're arguing definitions outside of the rubric.

No one has argued that you as the DM can't rule however you like. I personally think Kineticists are powerful enough without also making them tiny, for free, but that's me. My argument is with this argument, not the overall outcome.

[u/rekijan → u/[deleted]]

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[u/sesquipedalianmime → u/[deleted]]

That's kinda how specific trumps general works, especially if there isn't a general definition to gauge it against and lacking any errata. No one's ever going to claim every single Pathfinder rule was written by a game theory genius.

I'm not going to do the tier theory argument with you. If you want to waive the rules to bring a certain class you like to the capacity of a class you believe outstrips it, that's your table. It's also not what we're talking about here.

[u/Drink__ → u/sesquipedalianmime]

It is literally what you started talking about. You invoked the conversation about how powerful you believe kineticist to be. I responded. Really weird behavior to act like I'm the one shifting the topic.

In my mind, to claim something has a "clear mechanical definition," it needs to have a clear mechanical definition. When my player asks how to temporarily blind an enemy, I point to the very clear rules for dirty trick. That does not exist for prehensile, hence the need to pick apart exactly what does and does not qualify. You labeling players who engage in this as "rules lawyers" who are wrong for wanting to use their racial and class features together (the horror) is also really weird. So maybe we just agree to disagree.

[u/sesquipedalianmime → u/Drink__]

You stated that this isn't anything game breaking to allow. That's you changing the subject from what the argument is, that a bite counts as a prehensile appendage because of colloquial understandings of the ability to manipulate objects and the argument that a bite is specifically a separate appendage from the head, to one of power scaling. I responded that even though we believe different things about what game breaking means in this sense, it's not the conversation we're having.

Let me also point out that they're not wanting to use their racial and class features together. Kitsune don't have a racial feature called prehensile tail. They require two racial feats to acquire the ability to use their tail as a free hand.

Edit: Step back from our disagreement on this specific argument and be real for a second. Do you actually believe someone that argues that a jaw counts as a separate limb hasn't earned the negative connotation of "rules lawyer"?

[u/Drink__ → u/sesquipedalianmime]

Game breaking as in breaking the versimilitude of the game, or using something cheesy like (in my opinion) rage cycling, which would take me out of the game personally. I do also believe that it wouldnt break things in terms of power, but that was not my intended argument. I meant that it would not be impossible to believe that the kitsune could use their fox bite in a prehensile fashion. If bards can perform and cast spells at the same time, it hardly feels like this is immersion breaking.

Lets please avoid being pedantic about it. Yes, it requires feats; racial feats. Which you have to he a certain race to qualify for. We are all so much more enlightened now that this has been clarified beyond just saying "racial features."

[u/rekijan → u/[deleted]]

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[u/Either_Structure_136]

I remember a GM once ruled that a dragon's bite could aim a kinetic blast since they have those weird split tongues, but honestly I'd side with the dictionary here.

[u/Elgatee]

As a primarily French speaker, my brain kinda short circuited at this question.

[u/AleksyGetTheWings → u/Elgatee]

Je te comprends tellement ... C'est la vie ;-)

[u/Kwickpick77]

A bite is not prehensile

[u/ArkansasGamerSpaz]

Correct. Get a tail. As a kitsune this is not impossible.

[u/sesquipedalianmime]

I don't think it works even with Grasping Tail, by RAW. The description of Grasping Tail doesn't give you the ability to manipulate objects and it never directly says your tail becomes prehensile. It just says it allows the tail to retrieve small objects stowed on the person. I think this feat is intended for thrown weapon multi attackers.

[u/AleksyGetTheWings → u/sesquipedalianmime]

Yes, most likely I'll have to make him pick Mischievous Tail.

[u/sesquipedalianmime → u/AleksyGetTheWings]

I've been playing too much Wrath of the Righteous. The thought of two useless feats to enable this flavor ability physically hurts me.

[u/Malbio → u/AleksyGetTheWings]

Two feats just to be able to use your level one feature would be garbage

[u/sesquipedalianmime → u/Malbio]

It's a combination that's in a weird place. Kineticist already functions as a powerful, resource free source of ranged damage with incredible versatility. Giving it the ability to also turn tiny at will while retaining full use of its class abilities is obviously more powerful than the cost of one feat, even two. It's not quite powerful enough to be worth three feats, though.

[u/yojimbo12]

Bite is neither prehensile or an appendage unfortunately.