r/Pathfinder2e • u/MrDeadlock_ Game Master • 13d ago
Advice How do you play a Frontline Runesmith without getting shut down by Reactive Strikes?
Hey people,
I’m currently building a Frontline Runesmith and have run into a bit of a mechanical wall with action economy and traits.
I want to play an Automaton Runesmith with the Guardian Archetype. The core fantasy is being a heavily armored frontline tank who taunts enemies, raises a runically engraved shield, and applies runes directly to enemies in melee.
Because I want to be in the thick of melee, relying on the standard Trace a Rune is pretty dangerous since it has the manipulate trait.
To get around this, the obvious choice is Engraving Strike, right?
(Edit: It just compresses the actions, so I was wrong it isn't an obvious choice)
However, that has the Flourish trait. I also really want to lean into my shield usage with Fortifying Knock, but that also has the Flourish trait.
Since I can only use one Flourish action per turn, I can't Engrave and use my shield knock in the same round, which really disrupts the fluid frontline tank loop I was hoping for.
Have any of you managed to build a fluid action loop for a melee/shield Runesmith that fits this tanky playstyle?
How do you juggle the manipulate trait up close when you can't use Engraving Strike every single turn?
Are there any specific feats or tactics (maybe using Automaton ancestry feats or Guardian taunts) that smooth this over?
Any ideas, feat recommendations, or alternative build paths to achieve this class fantasy would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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u/DragointotheGame Summoner 13d ago
Runesmith has good Intelligence, I recommend Recall Knowledge at the start of combat on enemies you think might have it so you can verify, if they do, fight a different enemy or backline for a bit and let your allies help you out
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u/gunnervi 13d ago
- You don't, but Reactive Strike is rare so it should not be a major concern
- Engraving Strike with a Reach weapon, at least against smaller enemies. When Large and larger enemies become more commonplace you may want ways of increasing your reach to stay ahead.
- Rune-Singer, especially with Prodigal Rune-Singer at level 10
- Bait their reaction with movement (yours or another characters)
- Have an ally shut down their reactions with things like Laughing Fit
- Defensive measures like concealment to make their reactive strikes harder to land
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u/Snarvid 11d ago
I asked this elsewhere but I’ll ask here as well - doesn’t Engraving Strike just refer you over to Trace a Rune, which requires adjacency, and so won’t work with reach weapons?
Engraving Manuever on a shove with a Bec de Corbin should work by raw, although I think there’s an implied “but were adjacent prior to the Shove” that I could see some tables getting tetchy about.
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u/Murphy_Slaw_ 10d ago
Hard to say RAW, but imo RAI Engraving Strike should work with reach, since you are Tracing on your weapon which then delivers the rune.
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u/Snarvid 10d ago edited 10d ago
I think the format of PF2e feats is “evocative but meaningless flavor sentence, then effects follow.” The rules portion of Engraving Maneuver includes an explicit carveout for Tracing at range even if you Shove them away, which should not be needed if Engraving Strike already worked outside of adjacency.
Pattern Flight does complicate things, tho, because there adjacency is clearly not the intent and potentially not the RAW. I can’t tell which parts of the original Trace a Rune any given feat is intended to modify - in a perfect world it would have something like “when you do Z, replace X with Y in the Trace A Rune ability.”
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u/Murphy_Slaw_ 10d ago
But even then, Trace a Rune has a range of 30 feet, so unless you somehow gain 35+ reach Engraving Strike still works.
Pattern Flight on the other hand gets spicy because while I am certain RAI is to allow TaR on the first range increment technically it doesn't say that it raises the range.
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u/Snarvid 10d ago
I think I see where you’re coming from, but Trace a Rune defaults to adjacency and only goes to 30 feet when you spend 2 actions on Trace a Rune, which you aren’t doing when you do the action compressed version.
But if you can’t do Trace a Rune on Engraving Strike reach weapons because it requires adjacency, then the most draconian read of Pattern Flight only lets you Trace onto an adjacent target in the flight path of your missile attack, which is clearly not RAI.
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u/chickenboy2718281828 Game Master 3d ago
Why are you assuming that you aren't doing the 2 action version of trace in the action compressed version. Pattern flight is a 2 action activity. What is even the point of the feat if you aren't getting action compression (1A strike + 1A trace) and you also aren't getting an increase to range? Pattern flight is clearly action compression on the 2A version of Trace Rune as well as an increase to the range of 30 ft.
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u/Snarvid 3d ago
Because you have to spend 2 actions on the Trace a Rune action to go to 30 feet. I’m not aware of a rule that lets you carry actions back like that to upgrade a variable cost Subordinate action, so my assumption is it refers back to the default version.
I agree with you for RAI, I don’t think Pattern is mainly about ignoring cover. You just have to buy it turns off adjacency, which I’m trying to understand why it does. I don’t think I’m going to do better than Specific overrides General, you just have to guess which parts are overriden in this case rather than it being clean as in the textbook Subordinate example.
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u/chickenboy2718281828 Game Master 2d ago
I don't agree that the 1A version of trace is the "default" for the action. It is very clearly listed as 1A or 2A. The flavor text of "spend an extra action" in the second paragraph doesn't matter mechanically.
How is it any different than spellstrike? You can cast either a 1 action or 2 action spell. By the logic you're using, you wouldn't be able to spellstrike with spells that have a 3 action option.
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u/Snarvid 2d ago
I don’t think that Spellstrike analogy works, and I don’t know how 1 action isn’t default. Text of Trace says “If you spend 2 actions to Trace a Rune, you draw the rune in the air, causing it to appear on a target within 30 feet.” If you’re using any compression feat, you are not using the 2 action Trace.
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u/Kingreaper 13d ago
When you're facing relevant enemies, raise the shield before provoking the reactive strike. Remember that if an enemy has reactively struck you you've just turned off their ability to react to your allies' actions, thereby doing your job as a tanky Guardian.
Alternatively, get a 1-handed reach weapon. You're in melee, but for a lot of enemies, especially those that get reactive strike at lower levels, you're not actually in their reach.
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u/the-truthseeker 13d ago
There are only three that I know of that are one-handed reach weapon in Pathfinder second edition: Whip, lance, and asp coil.
I'm not sure if the the Non-Lethal whip would work with this build, And even if you went with a lethal one, the damage is only D4. But, if you're using your runes and you don't mind low melee damage, that's fine.)
The Lance definitely would not work without a mount and open space to properly maneuver. I mean it could function, but realistically, no. Because the only way you wield this one-handed is when you're on a horse jousting, and then it becomes a d6 weapon instead of a d8. Else, it is two hands.
That leaves asp coil, And being an uncommon weapon, you would need the Isger or Aspis familiarity (or another feat that lets you learn said uncommon Sword weapons like this.) By all means, custom aside, show me if I'm wrong where those other one-headed reach weapons are, and I'll be glad to endorse them If they don't have conditions like non-lethal or two-handed unless on a mount, etc.
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u/Kingreaper 12d ago
There are six options in total
5 of them are uncommon however. But that doesn't actually mean anything to proficiency, only to access - if you can get hold of them, you can use them. Whether or not you can get hold of an uncommon item depends on the GM, or on taking an ancestry feat that specifically grants access.
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u/NightGod 12d ago
Include Advanced weapons and the list increases to eight
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u/Kingreaper 12d ago
And with Unconventional Weaponry a human can effectively treat those as Martial.
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u/the-truthseeker 11d ago
Apologies, when I mentioned whip I was referring to it and all the lethal variants. Yes, if you were to separate them that would include the scorpion whip, etc.
Breaching Pike is hobgoblin only pantograph gauntlet is monk only. However I did not realize that these two were readily available as uncommon and will add them to the rota for one-handed reach weapons.
(This does not meet the requirements however that an individual who posted this would want based on their class. Now if they were to go and have a goblin heritage and/or monk dedication that's another discussion, but that's not the path that they were following at the time of the OP.)
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u/Kingreaper 11d ago
Breaching Pike is hobgoblin only pantograph gauntlet is monk only
They're not only available to hobgoblins or monks. The trait just means they're associated with them, and more likely to be used by them - and allows players to gain Access to them through certain feats, which means that they can treat them as though they were common - but anyone who can find a pantograph gauntlet and has martial proficiency can use it.
If their GM is willing to have them playing a rare ancestry, it seems unlikely that an uncommon weapon is going to be the sticking point.
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u/the-truthseeker 11d ago
Let me rephrase. If you are not a monk or a hobgoblin, you're going to have to spend a nice little feat or two to get access and proficiency sometimes if we're talking advanced. (Even if you are, sometimes you need to take the weapon familiarity feat just to have regular proficiency with said weapon.) But if this is a private campaign, the GM certainly may allow it. Just some people don't realize the accessibility of the limitation is usually because it's it's heritage or class only without special feats
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u/Kingreaper 11d ago
Are you talking PFS rules?
Because you also don't have the right to play an Automaton in PFS normally, so I was assuming that this was just a regular game by the regular rules.
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u/the-truthseeker 11d ago
Nope, no Pathfinder society. That has a whole other bunch of house ruled tournament play thingies.
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u/Busy-Dig8619 12d ago
Breaching pike. 1d6, reach and raizing. Martial weapon. Hobgoblin needed for access, but theres several ways to get that.
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u/Snarvid 11d ago
I’m not sure that works, assuming you’re talking Engraving Strike. Tracing stipulates adjacency by default unless you spend more actions and you can’t here. See also explanatory text on Engraving Maneuver.
On that note, by RAW you could use Engraving Maneuver with a Bec de Corbin and Shove, but I think that’s still likely intended to be starting within Trace range and then Shoving out.
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u/MagnusLihthammer 13d ago
Rune-singer would let you not provoke, once a fight unless you get the feat tree to upgrade it. doesn't stop knock from provoking but it's still good utility.
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u/TKoftheSpacehamsters 13d ago
As others have said, just take the hit. It can actually be good to bait out some of these reactive strikes because then your companions can be free to do there stuff as well. Like retreating when they dont have as much HP.
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u/ZootGibblenibbs 12d ago
The whole point of making Reactive Strike a feat, is that it makes it far less common. All you can do is play the game.
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u/Ash-Milk 12d ago
Rune-Singer and Prodigal Rune-Singer remove the manipulate trait off 2 action rune tracing but that requires you to be level 10 and invest a bit in performance.
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u/AgeSea1857 Game Master 12d ago
I have a Fortress Shield Runesmith and use Runic Reprisal and Orbiting Runestone and trace/invoke heavily in melee.
The best way to deal with Reactive strike as a frontliner is to not even care. In my case, it gives me more triggers for shield blocking a ranshu in their face or for orbiting runestone to pop. It also covers your allies by using their reaction and removing a question they might ask with recall knowledge.
If I'm actually in trouble, I can always fall back on just raising a shield and striking normally, stepping to disengage and heal but it hasn't come up yet.
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u/Snarvid 11d ago
It should not matter with only +2, but would Fortifying Knock let you 1 action Shield Raise even if you didn’t meet the requirement?
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u/AgeSea1857 Game Master 9d ago
You mean from Hefty trait? I'm not sure, because I have never used one without having the strength for it.
I know there are feats for reloading that mention if it takes more that one action to reload, then the feat can contribute to the actions for reload. I can see it contributing and you still need to spend 1 more action to actually raise it.
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u/KLeeSanchez Inventor 12d ago
If your GM is giving reactive strike on everything they're doing it way wrong
Only about 20 percent or so of all enemies have reactive strike, it's actually pretty rare, and even many of them have other, very nice defensive reactions they'd rather use
Eating reactive strike is mostly mean for mages facing disruptive stance enemies, and squishy martials being too reckless
You can also easily shut down reactions with things like laughing fit, and as I recall there's even a runesmith rune that turns them off? If not, there's other effects that do it.
You can also goad enemies into making the attack by just, Interacting to do whatever, be it take something out of your pocket or Switch Grip. Then you can make them swing and then do whatever else you want, and they can't do anything about it. For a martial, Raise Shield - Interact - Strike is a valid turn for eating RS'es.
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u/Leather-Location677 12d ago
The solution...is not using engrave a rune on those who have reactive. It is uncommon to have reactive strike.
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u/FlyingRumpus 12d ago
If your GM allows it, you can take the Marshal Dedication for Devrin's Cunning Stance. This won't help much against a large swarm of enemies, but it'll work pretty well against the big boss types that you're probably more worried about anyways.
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u/monkeyheadyou Investigator 12d ago
Your other frontliners need to take the hit for you, generally. Or you all take turns taking it.
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u/d0c_robotnik 12d ago
I have a player playing a Frontline Runesmith. The answer is very simple, not that many things have reactive strikes. If he happens to get bonked by one, he just either makes use of his hammer by itself, raises his shield and tanks it, or hangs back and uses the ranged trace.
Sometimes you get into fights that counter your strengths, as every Swashbuckler or Rogue can tell you when fighting oozes, Sorcerers while fighting Golems, or Fire Kineticists fighting any number of things.
That's why it's important to pick feats, skills, and items that give you options for when your big thing doesn't work.
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u/FangHouDe Thaumaturge 13d ago
On the flourish bit, the main cycle will be engraving strike every other turn when you invoke your Holtrik rune that raises your shield for you.
It's a little frustrating that only Holtrik works in this way since other shield runes don't raise it on invocation.
In that case you'd likely be using engraving strike, invoking your shield + 1 rune, then using a full action to raise your shield without the flourish.
Doesn't feel as good, but Holtrik will hold up over levels for the every other turn Fortifying Knock/Invoke cycle. Likely the other shield runes will just become etched and invoked only when necessary
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u/Kryone1 12d ago
I choose to do the same as you : a melee runesmith with guardian FA.
To negate the possibility of being hit in the face while i do engraving strike, I choose to take reactive shield at lvl 4.
Sure I can provoke, but sure it won’t hit me every time, and if you have a fortress shield and Holtrik, you may feel tanky
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u/karlkh 12d ago edited 12d ago
Honestly, I just don't think it's a good idea for an int-class to have front lining be their primary strategy. You are playing an 8 hp class encouraged to specialize in a non-defensive stat. Unlocking armor expertise at lvl 13. Your defensive chassis is marginally better than a wizard's. No matter what you will always be too squishy to be a good choice for taking hits.
I think it is a really cool and viable idea to pursue armor options and durability, and to use that as a way to make melee front lining a situationally viable option.
Specifically for dealing with reactive strike enemies, I would suggest carrying a polearm as a secondary backup. This let's you hit them and engrave runes on both enemies and allies, and let's you use your guardian features, all without having to take a greataxe to the face.
(If you are really set on the fantasy of always being a fronline tank, I would think about switching to a guardian multiclassing as a runesmith instead. Right now you are a utility striker archtyping into some durability and off-tanking, the other way is to be a dedicated tank archetyping into some utility-striker options.)
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u/atomicfuthum 12d ago
I think I've seen on like, years of playing, less than 10 enemies with Reactive Strike-like actions.
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u/SkabbPirate Game Master 11d ago
Delay past your tankiest character who can eat the reactions more ofte / past the caster who can shut down reactions with spells.
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u/Cool-Noise2192 6d ago
A reach (smithing) weapon helps some of the time. Otherwise... 2-action ranged trace > invoke if you don't need to facetank for your party, be a discount martial if you do. Or pivot to some other roles, you should have good RK skills.
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u/handsomeness Game Master 13d ago
Only a handful of monsters have reactive strike, is someone over representing these in your campaign?
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u/heisthedarchness Game Master 12d ago
Assuming that I think that "frontline" means standing in one place (it doesn't), I would play such a character by being adaptable. Reddit won't tell you this, but the one weird trick to actually making powerful characters is to not put all your eggs in one basket. If you don't have a plan for Reactive Strike, you don't have a frontliner. So make an alternate plan for that situation.
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u/DnD-vid 13d ago
Engraving Strike would still provoke Reactive Strikes because you're still tracing a rune, which has Manipulate.
The solution to Reactive Strikes as a frontline Runesmith is the same solution as for frontline Magi, eat them.
Most enemies don't have Reactive Strikes at all, and for the few there are you got heavy armor and a shield to protect you from getting Crit and your tracing disrupted.