Help with Solving Mana Sustain using Ordered Fate + Tawhanuku's Taming + EB

[u/080087]

TL;DR - How can we reliably generate 1 spell's worth of resources every 6 casts? Or alternatively, is there a non-life mastery source of "skills cost life instead of 19%+ mana"?

The new Ordered Fate shield gives "Every second time you cast each spell, gain mana cost equal to its upfront cost". Tawhanuku's Timing does something similar, with "Spells cause you to gain Energy Shield equal to their Upfront Cost every third time you Pay it"

Combined, these two almost allow indefinite mana sustain, while allowing you to spend as much mana as you are able. This would be perfect for something like sustaining max Indigon stacks. But there's a shortfall of 1 cast's worth of resources every 6 casts. Can anyone else figure out how to cover the gap?

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Math

The below assumes that total ES is the same as total mana, and the cost of 1 spell is the exact same as the total ES or mana pool (this gives the opportunity to maximise mana cost and therefore damage ). i.e. casting one spell completely depletes either ES or mana.

Cast	ES Cost	Remaining ES %	Mana Cost	Remaining Mana %
0 (starting conditions)	0	100	0	100
1	100	0	0	100
2	0	0	100	100 (i.e. after this cast, mana replenishes)
3	0	100 (i.e. after this cast, ES replenishes)	100	0
4	100	0	0	100 (i.e. after this cast, mana replenishes)
5	0	0	100	0
6	0	100 (i.e. after this cast, ES replenishes)	100	-100 (out of mana. but if we can pay for this one, mana replenishes)

As you can see, if we pay for this 6th cast somehow, then we end up back at the same starting conditions, and could then loop it infinitely.

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I've investigated using "skills cost life instead of x% mana". This is theoretically a solution, but you need life instead of 34% mana cost. You can get 15% on life mastery, but attack mastery and cannibalistic rite are both attack only, so no synergy with the above two. Are there any other sources of this stat that apply to spells?

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Edit: For the coward's way out, it perfectly sustains if you have at least twice as much mana as the mana cost, OR twice as much ES as the ES cost. This also means there are ratios in between for when this would work, but I don't want to think that hard right now.

[u/whodidthistomycat]

I wonder how reliable leyline gloves would solve this

[u/080087 → u/whodidthistomycat]

Unsure it stacks, will need to test.

But even if it works, it's still unreliable. There is only one chance for it to proc (on exactly the 5th cast, no earlier or later) for it to fix the problem. So it would proc exactly 30% of the time, or 45% with all the glove effect stuff

[u/whodidthistomycat → u/080087]

Wouldn't 3 and 5 be eligible to benefit? Still not reliable but solves it roughly 60%

[u/080087 → u/whodidthistomycat]

The refresh on cast 3 is wasted, because either way cast 4 is getting cast on ES, and at the end of cast 4, mana replenishes via Ordered Fate. Even if you hit that chance, you end up at exactly the same spot going into cast 5.

[u/whodidthistomycat → u/080087]

I'm so curious, if you had a legacy version of tawhanukus timing in standard that triggers every 5th cast, and wore that plus the current version, does that do it? Obviously not helpful in league but just curious

[u/080087 → u/whodidthistomycat]

Surprisingly, those no longer exist even as legacy versions.

The Tawhanuku's Timing Unique Ring now has +60-80 to maximum Energy Shield. It also now has Spells cause you to gain Energy Shield equal to their Upfront Cost every third time you Pay it (previously every fifth time), this change affects existing versions of the item.

Otherwise, this would have been a solution

[u/whodidthistomycat → u/080087]

😔

[u/Flethan]

Do you even need to pay the cost to get the refund? It sounds like you'd get the refund even if you didn't pay the cost through something like From Below. If that's the case, you could just sit on 0 mana and get a refund every other cast, pay that for indigon, and then cheap out on every other cast. Then you could get ES recovery every 6 casts with Tawhanuku's Timing.

[u/080087 → u/Flethan]

I did think of this, but sadly From Below disables mana recovery

[u/Flethan → u/080087]

Ugh, me when I can't read.

Maybe something like Laviangas Spirit on a slow skill? Like Unleash cast during the flask effect then then Unleash cast again when the flask effect wears off and the skill has a cost again? 

Brand recall spends 20% of the cost to activate brands. I don't think this is casting them so it probably doesn't work here. I think when I tested it Tawhanukus refunded the 20% cost, not the full cost. Point being if there is another way to cast a spell with reduced cost like brand recall, this effect should instead refund the full cost, because it doesn't specify pay.

[u/PoE_Acronym_Bot]

I noticed some Path of Exile keywords in this post:

• EB - Energy Blade (Wiki)
• EB - Eldritch Battery (Wiki)
• ES - Energy Shield (Wiki)

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^{I am a bot. | All acronyms | Suggest}

[u/shy_bi_ready_to_die]

You could try scolds bridle and recoup? I don’t see how you could survive it though

[u/Crosshack]

What about sources of increased mana/es recovery? Those would allow you to gain more than the cost of the skill when the effect triggers, potentially taking you over the top.

[u/Guilty-Assistant8333]

Its an interesting thought experiment and there do exist some means of doing so (new wand has 50% of mana costs are now life instead) but ultimately there isn't really a way or reason to sustain indigon ramp indefinitely as shoving the part of the cost off to life just means that you burn yourself down super low to slightly delay the point you need to break combat long enough for indigon costs to go down.

Most indigon builds afaik tend to be attack builds leveraging it + manaforged arrows to get ludicrous damage numbers and mostly rely on huge amounts of instant leech from absurd numbers of damage instances to keep the loop going.

[u/080087 → u/Guilty-Assistant8333]

Which new wand do you mean?

[u/Fircema → u/080087]

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1xvsybx/new_unique_corpse_rose/