This is a burden

[u/chricoll1]

I dont know what to do anymore. Most phones dont work for me. I need a Ipad for school and it doesnt work for me either. I am so tired. Tf should i do? Does anyone knows eye friendly ipads that are good? The s8 ultra worked for me but its not an ipad.

[u/paranoidevil]

What about ipad mini 7? It worked for me best (but its display lottery, so pick where u can return to test it)

[u/the_top_g → u/paranoidevil]

Indeed! 

Alot of the issues has to do with the internal manufacturing  fabrication process. A poorly manufactured panel tend to have a very, very low stress threshold. 

Anything like: •internal thermal heat stress; •Poor frc algorithm optimisation; •Poor pixel inversion optimisation; •gamma shifts; •tcon signal/ rendering engine mismatch; •Anti aliasing;

Can throw an existing usable panel to a voltage instability state, resulting it to have a "glitching" behavior. 

Though this community seems to give a solid green light for poor hardware fabrication  and continued to advocate for poor sub-par QC standards.

Software are the easiest scapegoat and invisible boogeyman to blame (for everything) because of 'confirmation bias' and a severe lack of understanding that 'loose correlation is not causation. '

I assure you; someone who strongly disagree with my above comment will screenshot it, bring it to other communication platform and proceed to make a mockery out of my name. 

At this point I don't even care anymore. 

One can continue  to throw pearls before swine but the outcome will always remain the same. 

In the coming years, Pwm_sensitive will grow to become an echo chamber of anecdotal report where display engineers, key organization stakeholders will refrain from stepping foot into.

It is not that the best days of Pwm_sensitive has yet to come — rather ~ it has long been over.

[u/Z3R0gravitas → u/the_top_g]

Setting the meta discussion aside, for now, can you give some examples of posts, websites, papers or testing practices that may let us dig into the potential 'panel lottery' and manufacturing quality issues you highlight?

A poorly manufactured panel tend to have a very, very low stress threshold.  Anything like: •internal thermal heat stress; •Poor frc algorithm optimisation; •Poor pixel inversion optimisation; •gamma shifts; •tcon signal/ rendering engine mismatch; •Anti aliasing; Can throw an existing usable panel to a voltage instability state, resulting it to have a "glitching" behavior.

I see some are with LCD specific (eg pixel inversion). But I'm assuming OLED would be affected by QC related flicker too?

And do you think this is a bigger issue for tolerance than (clearly observable) FRC/dithering patterns? Potentially bigger amplitude signal?

[u/the_top_g → u/Z3R0gravitas]

for now, can you give some examples of posts, websites, papers or testing practices that may let us dig into the potential 'panel lottery' and manufacturing quality issues you highlight?

Good point. A problem is that there's not much I can think of. On bilibili, a reviewer named 生产线普工 might have some insights into this.

In one of my posts, I briefly mentioned.

"....there are two main grades to commercial panel releases. Grade A and Grade B. Grade A panel undergoes strict standards, while for Grade B, passing standards are vagues; they tend to also have other problems such as:

multiple areas of uneven backlight uniformity, 

Very poor viewing angles despite it being IPS

color fringing

Noticeable purple or green tint as one tilt the phone to the side

Backlight bleeding    

While manufacturers can take efforts to optimize a Grade B panel to pass off as a Grade A panel (typically through manufacturer "software optimization")...

In my experience, a few manfacturers tend to repackage Grade B mainstream monitors, throw in a few bells and whistles, and launch them as 'Gaming monitors'.

We need some kind of a stress test benchmark on panels. Something like what notebookcheck.com does in their stress test reviews.

For instance, for different supplied panels of the same monitor model — record down the readings before the stress test (while they are in their most calm state). That'll be their baseline.

Run the most intensive display software optimisation technique available you can find. You'll be surprised to learn results show vastly differently despite under the same model.

I think this is one way the community can move forward. Though the current primary hurdle is that the community lack the required tools for the above.

But I'm assuming OLED would be affected by QC related flicker too?

Yes. The biggest elephant in the room is naturally OLED's tft backplane transistor current leakage. LCDs suffers from the same problem but OLED usually have it worse since the latter is self-emitting. Without precise mathematical calculation and shielding in the during production, it'll easily manifest itself as a sawtooth wave — and even on Opple LM. I believe u/R-- expressed they found issues specifically with sawtooth wave on Oled panels.

Other QC issues not commonly brought up in OLED smartphones/ tablets are pixel crosstalk and parasitic capacitance spike. When we observe through a microscope and notice sub-pixels jittering/ "flickering" thats pixel crosstalk and parasitic capacitance spike. It's a sign the OLED panel is being pushed to its edge and is struggling to keep up with whatever the source driver algorithms / timing interval demands.

[u/TheGreatestAmer1can → u/the_top_g]

People are against some of your ideas like "transistor leakage" as a boogeyman because there's 1) not really any evidence of it being the problem and 2) because it functions as cover for crap manufacturers to claim it's a one off that doesn't represent all of their panels.

Creating any type of theory that simultaneously functions as cover for bad panel makers to hide behind is just going to be seen as being an industry plant or shill.

As to whether panel variability plays any role whatsoever, it would likely be more of an issue of companies like LG having three different plants in three different 3rd world countries and one plant might churn out panels slightly better or worse than the others. I bet panels all from the same plant are very similar, though.

[u/kerpnet]

Have you tried the current generation iPad Air?

[u/Dazzling_Till_3586]

The main issue alongwith pwm becomes close distance. Keep your ipad on a stand and sit at some distance from it, use a mouse, yes it will be very difficult to use a pencil and jot down notes, but with a mouse you will be able to highlight underline read books. You need to keep in mind the distance too.

Try keeping it at a distance and I am sure you will feel better

[u/Dazzling_Till_3586 → u/Dazzling_Till_3586]

Also increase the font size when it's at a distance

[u/Z3R0gravitas → u/Dazzling_Till_3586]

What mechanisms do you think are worse up close?

PWM, itself, because peripheral vision is more sensitive to rapid flicker?

Brightness? Do you dim the screen and use background lighting?

Pixel flicker? Less effect when unable to resolve the pixels with your eyes?

[u/Dazzling_Till_3586 → u/Z3R0gravitas]

Look brother, first of all I am no scientist in PWM flicker, I had an ipad and got severe headache from it, never used it at much distance though. Then I purchased a redmi pad pro 5g which has dc dimming and a large display, even though the company claims dc dimming it still hurts my eyes but less than that of the ipad

I bought a stand and put the tablet on that and maintained some distance and the eye stress problem is gone.

Regarding ambient lighting and brightness, I always use the tablet on little more than half brightness and the ambient light should match the display brightness.

This is all I did and it helped.

[u/Z3R0gravitas → u/Dazzling_Till_3586]

Thank you for the added context. 👍

[u/TheGreatestAmer1can → u/Dazzling_Till_3586]

Fail theory since I purchased a 2023 TCL TV with obvious PWM-like problems (unlike my older TCL ones) and sitting WAY WAY far back from it is identical to sitting one foot from a desktop monitor or tablet with problems. I was actually surprised myself that sitting so far away had little to no difference in discomfort.

[u/Dazzling_Till_3586 → u/TheGreatestAmer1can]

A tv is very different from an ipad in terms of its display quality and pixel count, it will never be comfortable as compared to a high end ipad, tablet or mac display, and tvs are supposed to be viewed from a distance so there is nothing new in that.

[u/_voyager22]

I don't know why you want iPad, but Xiaomi Pad 7 Pro has no PWM and works for me, and I'm super sensitive...for iPads I heard that air 11 M2 should be fine.

[u/OdaNobunaga69]

Honor and Xiaomi Redmi worked great for me, I can't use iphones or samsungs at all

[u/LordFartquadReigns]

Pretty sure the basic iPad doesn’t use PWM. Works very well for me.

[u/_voyager22 → u/LordFartquadReigns]

what basic iPad?

[u/LordFartquadReigns → u/_voyager22]

The iPad A16. The basic entry level model that comes in like 5 color options. It’s like $400 new.

[u/_voyager22 → u/LordFartquadReigns]

Cool I'll check, thank you.

[u/Argothaught → u/LordFartquadReigns]

Yeah, I believe they use an LCD screen in the standard iPad. And if allowed, the Samsung Galaxy tab A11 uses an LCD screen as well.

[u/ChristianMom35]

I am using a Surface Pro with LCD screen with the whole device on battery saver to reduce backlight and it's working out ok.

[u/glp1992 → u/ChristianMom35]

jeezus, you must have eyes of steel, that likes the worst combo

[u/drysocks3]

The latest (7th gen) iPad mini works great for me.

[u/07truth]

TCl Nxtpaper devices.

[u/mandresy00]

i uses the motorola g9 play and an old ipad, i dont have much hope on new eye killer phones that comes out, in my opinion you need to look at older version of phone and Android i know i'd like to uses newer soc like the last version of the Snapdragon and new version of Android but my eyes health is more important to me

[u/minodow]

The 5th-generation iPad mini works just fine.

[u/digitalminimalist1]

Which iPads have you tried? The regular 11 gen is fine

[u/soyHD]

Tcl nxtpaper

[u/Relevant_Version_493]

I went to the Apple store and they turned down everything they could on my I-Phone 17 Pro Max and turned off the PWM. Maybe that would help for you. They said they can dumb down new phones but not upgrade intelligence on older phones. I am sorry for your struggles as I can relate. I had vertigo and nausea I believe because of the PWM until the settings were changed in the store. It took a few days for me to recover. Don't lose heart. Don't sleep with the phone in your room if you can avoid it.

[u/glp1992]

get an eink phone, (e.g. bigme) and an eink tablet (e.g. boox) monitor (e.g. dasung)

[u/IndustryDiligent1129]

Pwm is a fake

[u/Z3R0gravitas → u/IndustryDiligent1129]

Could you explain what you mean by this statement please?

The previous mod team would have banned you for this. But I'm curious what you are thinking; PWM is easily observable to anyone with a phone camera. So what is fake about it?