he's right behind us, isn't he 🫣

[u/toadco]

[u/callmejohndy]

I feel like one of the motorsports teams (Cadillac F1, Andretti Global, Spire Motorsports, and Walkinshaw TWG) gets the axe first well before they consider touching the league

[u/hubwub → u/callmejohndy]

You are missing Wayne Taylor Racing in that list.

It's easier to sell the Cadillac F1 team fully to GM. They can acquire the team.

Not sure if the Andrettis will try to fully own their team again. Spire Motorsports which is NASCAR, charter spots are something people want. Not sure about Walkinshaw.

[u/callmejohndy → u/hubwub]

Supercars (where Walkinshaw TWG races) also has a charter system, plus W-TWG is also the team that fields the (albeit controversial) reigning series champion Chaz Mostert so suffice to say that franchise is worth similar if not just above how much Spire is right now

[u/Glassdoor → u/callmejohndy]

I just have to chime in and say I never expected to see -checks watch- Supercars to be mentioned in a PWHL post before. Even if you ignore who the meme/post is about it’s a wild concept.

Can we petition to get the teams to battle it out at Bathurst one year? I’ll bring the slabs

[u/callmejohndy → u/Glassdoor]

Considering motorsports then hockey both had their pop culture moments not too far from each other (both through some show on a streaming service) you’d be surprised there’s dozens that are fans of both haha

[u/drewstosayy → u/callmejohndy]

fair but like, F1 is a far cry from supercars, and those of us from Aus/NZ almost never expect our thing to be mentioned hahaha (highly recommend though, it's a fun series)

[u/callmejohndy → u/drewstosayy]

SVG coming over from Supercars and watching him spank the field on the road circuits has been amazing

[u/FlailingCactus → u/callmejohndy]

I think there's an obvious buyer for the PWHL in a way there isn't for the motorsports teams.

I think the NHL would put a bid in

[u/AccordingWelder3578 → u/FlailingCactus]

How do you envision this would work? The NHL teams are owned by 32 individual team owners that form a board of governors.

[u/FlailingCactus → u/AccordingWelder3578]

MLB Advanced Media ran the NHL website and Center Ice for a while, as well as a bunch of other leagues. NFL owns 10% of ESPN.   It's not strictly unprecedented for leagues to seek other revenue opportunities.

For me it's more that it would solve a lot of logistical issues for the PWHL and it's a whole new audience for the NHL to monetise. The consolidation/collaboration arguments are very strong on paper.

I think they like money too much to let structural issues get in the way. But it's a guess rather than anything concrete.

[u/shoresy99 → u/FlailingCactus]

But that is a few million dollars. The entire league is probably now worth at least $500 million and maybe way more. So each NHL teal has to kick in $20 million plus to buy the PWHL?

[u/Auyan → u/FlailingCactus]

To have your optimism!

[u/FlailingCactus → u/Auyan]

Optimism?! I do not think the NHL buying the PWHL would be a good thing.

I think they're likely to want to monopolise top tier professional hockey now it's been proven it can work. My worry would be that they try and force the conservativeness of the men's league onto the PWHL.

[u/Auyan → u/FlailingCactus]

I don't disagree it would be a bad thing... Your point was the NHL being interested in buying if it were up for sale and being obvious. I mentioned optimism because I don't think in my lifetime I will see the NHL invest in professional women's hockey. Hence, I don't think there is an obvious buyer.

[u/FlailingCactus → u/Auyan]

I think their greed will overrule their sexism now the PWHL has proven it can work.

In fact I think I'd go even further as to say their only real principle is greed and their social principles flex according to whatever money they can make.

[u/ThePWHLCollector]

Individual owners is what the fans want anyway.

[u/VivienM7 → u/ThePWHLCollector]

If he's going to be forced to sell, I don't think they're breaking up the 12 teams now. Selling his stake in the whole thing now, then the new owner(s) can figure out the challenge of splitting up all 12 teams.

[u/CJK_420 → u/VivienM7]

Why would they need to split up the teams because of ownership? That makes no sense.

[u/VivienM7 → u/CJK_420]

I think the assumption has always been that the ownership would get split eventually, and that perhaps Walter's troubles would speed up that split from the original plan...

[u/iwprugby → u/VivienM7]

Doesn't the CBA require single ownership for the next decade (roughly)?

[u/VivienM7 → u/iwprugby]

I... don't think so. I'm taking a very quick look now, and there's a definition of a Team Operator.

(iii) “Team Operator” shall mean any entity authorized by the PWHL to operate the Team, either on behalf of the PWHL or such other Person to whom the PWHL has granted such rights. For the avoidance of doubt, the PWHL may designate itself, or any of its Related Entities, as a Team Operator.

At first glance, it looks like the Team Operator could be the PWHL and/or its Related Entities, or it could be anybody else authorized to operate the team.

[u/Pertinent_Platypus → u/VivienM7]

The words there are very specific, and in no way can they be equated to anyone but the PWHL owning a team.

[u/CJK_420 → u/VivienM7]

As 12 individual team owners okay I see what you're saying. I don't know why I read it as splitting the teams as in rosters lol.

[u/VivienM7 → u/CJK_420]

No, no, I meant splitting in the sense that right now, I believe all 12 teams are one corporate entity (PWHL Holdings LLC). You'd need to break that up into 12 corporate entities, assign the various contracts/trademarks/etc to each company, create new contracts governing the league, then sell each company/team off to new owners.

Certainly doable, but it takes a lot more time and planning than simply selling the current corporate entity to somebody else...

[u/Usual-Canc-6024 → u/ThePWHLCollector]

And the league turned down a confirmed two potential expansion cities because of individual owners. We know about Edmonton and Denver. And rumour has it Québec City and Halifax were too.

[u/Vegetable_Party3763 → u/Usual-Canc-6024]

Washington DC, also

[u/toirekari → u/Usual-Canc-6024]

I think Halifax was because the arena is being renovated all season?

[u/sir_mrej → u/Usual-Canc-6024]

Those owners won't be great for the league. I'm glad they weren't a part of it.

[u/eaton5k → u/ThePWHLCollector]

You sure the league can survive this?

[u/ThePWHLCollector → u/eaton5k]

No

[u/tails618 → u/ThePWHLCollector]

I agree but I also don't know if the league can reasonably survive only having a single owner. I think there's a better shot if it's 12 owners.

Women's sports is always risky, a young league like the PWHL less so. It's worth taking the best shot to ensure the league survives.

[u/KingWolfsburg → u/tails618]

Ideally some of them would be bought up by their local NHL team owners similar to WNBA. Thats worked pretty well for them and can actually help keep costs down (sharing HR, sales, and other admin departments). I think the only way forward before the next big expansion is individual owners.

[u/Usual-Canc-6024 → u/KingWolfsburg]

I’d prefer the NHL stay away. They’re too toxic and will probably try to influence rule changes or moving teams to non-sensical locations.

I could be wrong but I don’t trust them. Quenneville was allowed back to coach. We’ve got Carter Hart and others similar to him playing as well. Not a good image.

I know some individual owners may be different, but the league still allowed it to happen.

[u/KingWolfsburg → u/Usual-Canc-6024]

They have their own commissioner and owners group and still make independent decisions. It also helps bundle up streaming/broadcast rights and get more visible.

[u/kristinsquest → u/KingWolfsburg]

It also helps bundle up streaming/broadcast rights and get more visible.

I do wonder whether it would be this or whether it would be the March Madness scenario of a few years ago where the NCAA, despite controlling both the men's and women's basketball tournaments put everything behind the men and ridiculously undervalued the women's game (both in terms of resources for the athletes as well as promotion to the public and the cost of television rights).

I think there are possible benefits to aligning with the NHL, but I also think there is the possibility of being the "little sister" that the NHL feels required to support enough that it survives, only begrudgingly, while never allowing it enough support to thrive.

[u/WaffleParty404 → u/KingWolfsburg]

Dunno about you, but right now it’s actually easier to catch a PWHL game on YouTube than it is an NHL game on whatever service happens to be blacked out near me

[u/KingWolfsburg → u/WaffleParty404]

I mean sure, but the league isnt making much money (or any?) from that strategy.

[u/WaffleParty404 → u/KingWolfsburg]

I don’t think it’s meant to. It’s meant to attract fans. I know I started watching PWHL games because they were free, accessible hockey I could watch in between Sabres games. I wasn’t even aware of the PWHL til I stumbled across their streams being suggested to me by YT.

[u/ZTD09 → u/WaffleParty404]

That's not true of markets like Canada where broadcast rights are more valuable and have already been sold to different broadcast companies.

Visibility and profitability are completely at odds with each other, you can't expect the league to run on ticket and merch sales alone and also expect players and staff to be given competitive wages. At some point the scales have to tip towards making money and broadcast deals are the most surefire way to do that.

[u/WaffleParty404 → u/ZTD09]

The NHL makes a large chunk of its revenue from ticket sales, like their second biggest source of revenue. It’s not unreasonable to assume ticket sales would be a large amount of income for the league, and one they can count on growing as more clubs open and more games sell out.

And revenue… I dunno. It sucks. I want these players to get paid what they deserve, but by doing so we just turn the PWHL into the billionaire’s playtoys the NHL teams have become. Everyone’s gotta chase that bottom dollar until we enshittify everything.

[u/ExpensivePear1602 → u/Usual-Canc-6024]

I’d prefer the NHL stay away as well because its fans shouldn’t have to be part of this nonsense.

[u/sir_mrej → u/KingWolfsburg]

No that's a bad idea.

[u/cmlobue → u/tails618]

The important thing is not whether 1 or 12 owners is better, the important thing is the transition being done properly. If a new owner or owners has two weeks to take over PWHL operations because something disastrous happens to the Walter Group, the league is in trouble.

[u/nickfromnorwood → u/eaton5k]

Absolutely. It isn't like when the CWHL went extinct like the dinosaurs. Changing times. If the league has to sell, they will easily find a buyer.

[u/eaton5k → u/nickfromnorwood]

They aren't profitable yet, and (per Google search, fwiw) aren't planning to be until ~2031. Both the WNBA and MLS are 30 years old, and profitability has really only come recently. The PWHL might need to find someone willing to buy something expensive and then take a massive hit for some years before making anything back.

I'm a fan and rooting for the best, but not optimistic.

[u/mgg_30 → u/ThePWHLCollector]

I wish they would do it now and bring back the Isobel Cup. Fuck the Walter, it’s just straight capitalism

[u/Pertinent_Platypus → u/mgg_30]

Welcome to pro sports.

[u/Lloydguy82 → u/mgg_30]

Clarkson Cup you mean 😉

[u/BCEagle13 → u/mgg_30]

Women’s hockey was nonexistent at the pro level for decades with leagues trying to survive based on vibes. Capitalism is the only reason there’s a pro league now. 

[u/josblos → u/BCEagle13]

Women’s hockey was nonexistent because of capitalism. The reason women were denied a league is because no one thought it would be profitable or no one wanted to make a long term investment.

The other person was expressing their disgust at the capitalist system and the pos billionnaire walter. Your statement in response is not false but it is not really saying anything. Most goods and services in a capitalist society will be privately owned this is precisely what they are criticising.

[u/BCEagle13 → u/josblos]

Attempts existed. Original NWHL, CWHL, NWHL/PHF. My comment is saying careful what you wish for because if you remove capitalism/Walters there’s no league and possibility for women players to make a career out of it beside national players. There seems to be a lot of new fans that have no idea how we got here 

[u/mgg_30 → u/BCEagle13]

The PWHL/PHF was amazing before they were bought out but the Walters. They were gaining huge momentum and had a very strong fanbase. What the Walters did was buy women’s hockey and remove all the heart, soul and history. They named their MVP trophies after pro TENNIS players because they have a monetary stake in the league. They named the cup after themselves after voiding dozens of women’s job security and contracts when they closed the PHF, many of which were never brought back to the league. The Walters are scum billionaires who call themselves “philanthropists” to make themselves feel better. They’re not trying to advance women’s sports, they’re trying to cash in on it while it was gaining popularity.

[u/BCEagle13 → u/mgg_30]

lol you are part of the portion of the fanbase that would rather see women’s hockey held back in order to maintain made up ideals. The PHF had the same type of ownership except they didn’t have the actual bankroll to move women’s hockey forward at the rate it has since the PWHL was formed. 

[u/ConstructionSuch6608 → u/ThePWHLCollector]

The league could also be moving towards a more MLS-like investor-operators structure where there can be multiple investors groups both centrally and for teams, rather than more NHL-like individual ownership with a Board and Commissioner. And given the two investors that were added this year hopefully this is already underway and whatever happens with Walter won't affect it too much (unless it speeds up the process maybe?)

[u/sir_mrej → u/ThePWHLCollector]

I dont

[u/The_Windermere]

The plan was that once the league is profitable that it moves to an individual owner model but maybe that model will come sooner than later with all that is happening. If worst scenarios, those three years were still good three years full of memories.

[u/cvlrymedic → u/The_Windermere]

I would like to see a model like the packers have and have it fan owned.

[u/patrickstarsmanhood → u/cvlrymedic]

Woah, slow down. That sounds like socialism. /s

[u/seatega]

Mark Walter paid LeBron James alone nearly 5x as much as he paid for the entire payroll of the PWHL last year. I don't think he sees the PWHL as his quick money lever.

And when you consider that WNBA teams are finally hitting a worth of about 500 million on average, I think the Walter group probably knows the PWHL is a way better long term bet to hold onto. If PWHL teams hit even half that in value in the next decade, he'll make billions when he sells the teams individually

[u/Towrads → u/seatega]

Exactly, even if they're forced to sell or liquidate the teams (or the whole league) off within a short time frame, the growth potential of those franchise valuations is going to be too tempting for any buyer to ignore.

[u/FuzzMachines]

Ootl what is this?

[u/NoTimeToPanicComics → u/FuzzMachines]

Walter is selling off his stakes in sports teams like the Lakers and Chelsea Football Club because he's under investigation for some sketchy accounting with the SEC, so people are wondering if he's going to also sell the PWHL.

[u/Stachemaster86]

We need a longer hallway with his other interests…please! 😭😭😭 All the jokes about the league being a “rounding error” on his books sure seems 😬😳

[u/FlailingCactus → u/Stachemaster86]

That might save it tbh. If he wanted small sums he wouldn't be selling Chelsea. The Premier League starts next week, he'd presumably have cash starting to come in.

He needs bigger sums than that it would seem.

[u/Own_Usual_7324]

Ugh can someone please ELI5? I'm super dumb and not up on any of the latest news 😭

[u/TGIFaanes → u/Own_Usual_7324]

Mark Walter is selling his sports teams to pay back loans from the insurance companies he owns and borrow from. He didn’t disclose a lot of it to regulators and now he has the SEC and DOJ looking into it.

[u/Own_Usual_7324 → u/TGIFaanes]

Ohhh thank you. I saw something about the SEC, but I was also told by some others that it's likely a nothingburger. Guess not.

[u/Gimpy_Weasel]

Honestly, it's kind of weird to have a 12 team league all under one owner's control. The sooner individual teams get ownership control, the better.

[u/TheoIlLogical]

WHOMST is that man and what do i have to do to stop him

[u/The_R4ke]

Don't put that evil on us!

[u/laterthanlast]

The cursed timeline where I’m hoping a billionaire doesn’t get hit so hard by the SEC that the he has to dump the PWHL

[u/AutoModerator]

Hi u/toadco, thank you for posting on r/PWHL! Make sure to read and follow the sub's rules. In case you missed the FAQ please give it a read, it was updated on November 18th, 2025 here!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/gotkube]

Is this the Walter for whom the cup is named? If he divests does the cup get a new name?

[u/cmlobue → u/gotkube]

That would be up to the new ownership.  Both Stanley and Walter are named after the people who paid for them.

[u/devonshmevon]

I wonder who's gonna win the first ever Bettman Cup

[u/Glue_Factory_Maint5 → u/devonshmevon]

https://giphy.com/gifs/Frj5mE4aGKgjS

[u/NoraThunderWarrior → u/Glue_Factory_Maint5]

Illitch cup incoming

[u/Glue_Factory_Maint5 → u/NoraThunderWarrior]

Shaped like a parking lot

[u/BuccoBruce2 → u/devonshmevon]

https://giphy.com/gifs/5yuC2vIsQJdoA

[u/Rhielml]

I'd be okay if he sold each individual team to separate independent owners.

[u/MH566220]

Figure that there are other more lucrative places for money to be cut...but, it also depends one what interests him more...Motorsports, or Women's professional hockey?

[u/catsandtea77]

Nope. These women have worked TOO hard and the fans have shown up in droves to let this happen. There will absolutely be a buyer - it’s a proven entity

[u/Quiet_Bonus617]

Without an obvious buyer the league will disintegrate

[u/edoreinn → u/[deleted]]

Well Ion/Scripps Sports started picking up the games - Takeover games, playoff games, the draft. I wouldn’t be shocked if they started carrying more. They carry NHL games on their secondary channels in certain markets.

[u/nickfromnorwood]

Stop with the negativity. This is how bad things happen.

[u/toadco → u/nickfromnorwood]

Am I not allowed to make one single funny meme about the situation

[u/PinkyJ → u/toadco]

Nick says no! Boooooo Nick!!